Admitted Faulty Product Design

[hurricane56]

Therein lies the biggest problem with these brands, their support model, and users expectations. If cars were marketed like this the manufacturer would soon be out of business.

You’re the perfect customer. Willing and able to affect your own repair. Maybe we’ll see EBike clubs form like the RC world. Get together and have repair clinics.

Someone with your skills might be happier building around your favorite bike.

I wonder what the problem rate actually is. Forums do tend to magnify issues.

I’m not dissing Juiced, but questioning the entire business model and how it addresses support. Kit builders know we’re in for an adventure.

Yeah totally, I’ve posted a couple of times about my Juiced Bike journey and tell it like it is. My expectations about the bike when I preordered the HF1000 was that it was going to be a bit of a “science experiment“ bike. I knew the specific MAC motor was sometimes difficult to tune and expected the stock controller to grenade itself at the power levels being ran. I do use my bike to commute daily, now 7500 miles on the odometer, but 6500 of those miles are on an aftermarket controller after I tore the entire bike apart and re-wired it.

The good thing about undertaking a controller swap was the collective knowledge gained by doing the project. My friend also purchased a HF1100 with the same expectations about the controller. We did the same controller swap and now both bike can run 35a without issue.

At more sane power levels, some of the Juiced Bikes products are priced reasonably with a good feature set. It is completely inexcusable that Juiced Bike has such sloppy tolerances with very vital component connections. I feel that their products have improved gradually and customer service has improved, but is still very inconsistent. The low cost of the bike shifts all the troubleshooting to the end user. For any potential buyer, this the decision that should be a primary factor in purchase from any manufacturer without a dealer network.

 

[hurricane56]

Does anyone know exactly what is different about the CCX battery holder? I assume that new batteries would be the same as the batteries sold with the CCX.

From what I can tell, the difference is in the battery top cap and not the plastic receiver lock in the frame. Juiced Bike based their current battery design around the Dorado series of ebike batteries, but they redesigned the individual cells to build up the pack so the cells are perpendicular to the bike frame. When they changed battery designs sometime in 2017, all of the end caps and battery cases were being made by Juiced to suit the large batteries. Early production wide-format batteries were produced with battery top caps, the injection molded plastic pieces that receive the lock pin, that were too large. This problem combined with the discharge port recessed pin issue made the poor connection issue. Also, they changed the frame size to support the whole width of the battery in early 2018. Earlier bikes had frames that left about .5“ of the entire length of the battery on the down tube unsupported.

 

[Fildil]

Yesterday I strapped my new 52 V battery onto my cross current S and went for a bike ride. I hit all sorts of bumps without any loss of power. I had a blast with all that power.

Back up a few days and the situation was not so great. There was no way to make the battery fit. I called Juiced Bikes and was told to put a strap on the battery. I suspect that if the battery is not fully locked in place and you use a velcro strap to secure it, then there is a chance that the power plugs will be damaged by electrical arcing.

I took apart the black plastic battery clips on the bike to see how everything worked (or did not work). I could see that the top clip had some play but not enough to interrupt the power connection . I tested the connection with the power on by holding the battery in my hands with the top clip attached. The locking pin was very effective. My conclusion is that if the locking pin fully engages the battery then there will be no loss of power...at least while I am holding the parts in my hand.

Next I tried to fit everything back onto the bike. I could not get a positive lock. Something was wrong with the bottom clip or the battery shape. The bottom clip could be positioning the battery too close to the frame and causing the battery to touch the frame before the locking pin can be fully engaged. So I removed the bottom clip and replaced it with a block of stiff foam. I held the top clip in place (no screws to allow more play), set the bottom of the battery on the foam and rotated the battery into place. The connections (pin and power) felt solid. I used 2 velcro straps to secure the battery. It worked and I got my bike ride.

I hope that Juiced Bikes will respect our business and fix this problem. It could be as simple as a new bottom clip.

============follow up 1

Replacing the bottom clip with foam did not work well. The battery slowly compressed the foam and the battery fuses came close to the seat tube. I reinstalled the bottom clip and left the top clip loose. That way I can get the battery completely engaged and locked in. I still use a velcro strap for peace of mind.

1 KW is a lot of fun.

I've spent a lot of time fiddling with the battery attachment system and I am impressed with the way the parts interlock to secure the battery. The way I see the problem is that the fixed top and bottom clips have no way to accommodate for slight variations in manufacturing.

As a footnote, the Phillips head #1 screws that hold the clips in place are easily damaged. I think JB uses allen heads now.

=============follow up 2

The electrical connection failed on several rides and I had to make changes. I removed the bottom clip and replaced it with foam. I reattached the top clip. This configuration allows the bottom of the battery to shift a little and allows the top clip to lock in. This has to be working kludge.

Juiced Bikes customer support was of no help. My 1 star review was not posted.

 

[Browneye]

Sorry to hear this...I had great hopes for Juiced Bikes, same for the other new bike brands on the block, like RadPower, Aventon, VoltBikes, etc. I'm just now coming to realize none of them are perfect...no, far from it.

IMO this is a fledgling industry with the majority of components being made in China. Just saying these words together makes me shudder. And I think y'all know why.

This type of product company is about R&D of the next 'latest and greatest' version without looking back. They simply can't wait for you to be out of warranty and on your own, cuz they don't have the wherewithal or the resources to fix old problems. It's the same in a lot of other industries, like computers is a good example, or cell phones - all this stuff becomes disposable or 'single use' type of products. If they fail you replace it with the newest updated version.

I don't have a fix, but my suggestion for any newcomers that aren't real handy as a DIY'r, is to put some stock in their local bike shop and buy there. That way you'll have a partner that can at least advocate for you and try to keep you happy. And riding. A china importer shipping direct has zero interest in that, other than shipping 'units', and the only reason there is ANY warranty at all is cuz that's the only way buyers will gain enough confidence in the brand to make a purchase decision in the first place. Otherwise they wouldn't provide any kind of after-sale support - there's no money in that. They have to move product to stay alive, and a lot of it. It's always and all about the numbers.

 

[hurricane56]

I also used some velcro, the fuzzy side and stuck it on the bottom of the battery as a shim. It tightened things up a bit.

 

[Solom01]

This China bashing is getting out of hand. Guess what, your cell phone, many parts in high-end European bikes, and just about everything else is made in China. The constant answer here is to buy a more expensive bike from an LBS, but look at the Stromer forum or those of other high end bikes. Plenty of people have paid 7k and up for a bike and still can't get support from the manufacturer. LBSs come and go but even the ones that survive aren't much help if your bike spends weeks in the shop waiting for a part from the manufacturer. While we're on the topic, how about the reviews on this site going on and on about a bike having a long warranty - but not pointing out that the warranty is parts only, not labor. For anyone who has a car we all know that many times the labor cost is much higher than the cost of the parts. I haven't a clue what the answer is, but maybe it will get better when there are newer technologies that don't fail as often (belts instead of chains, hub transmissions, whatever) and when we have a way to find out what a warranty really covers and how good the company is at backing it. It would also be great to have a reliable (not anecdotal) source of the reliability of different manufacturers. In the car world that information is available and has made a huge difference in helping companies such as Kia and Hyundai which perform well while getting rid of companies such as Fiat and Alfa which have not performed well.

 

[tomjasz]

They simply can't wait for you to be out of warranty and on your own, cuz they don't have the wherewithal or the resources to fix old problems.

Fortunately there are exceptions. My Marin frame was a part of the inventory kept in the USA for warranty replacements. 7 Model years later they have released the stock as bare frames. If you bought a Marin and had a frame issue, you were covered.

Sadly NO ONE builds anything useful in the USA. I choose the kit route having some basic mechanical skills and a willingness to buy the right tools. I'm hunting my first OEM bike after 7 builds. But won't give up my three favorite rides. It's nice to share with company. Or let uninitiated take a ride.

 

[tomjasz]

This China bashing is getting out of hand.

Nah,I don't read bashing, I read frustration. We're frustrated by the tariff policies and being punished for buying products we can't source anywhere else. OEM eBikes are exempted, but parts and kits are still being spanked by a clueless trade policy.

 

[Browneye]

This China bashing is getting out of hand. Guess what, your cell phone, many parts in high-end European bikes, and just about everything else is made in China. The constant answer here is to buy a more expensive bike from an LBS, but look at the Stromer forum or those of other high end bikes. Plenty of people have paid 7k and up for a bike and still can't get support from the manufacturer. LBSs come and go but even the ones that survive aren't much help if your bike spends weeks in the shop waiting for a part from the manufacturer. While we're on the topic, how about the reviews on this site going on and on about a bike having a long warranty - but not pointing out that the warranty is parts only, not labor. For anyone who has a car we all know that many times the labor cost is much higher than the cost of the parts. I haven't a clue what the answer is, but maybe it will get better when there are newer technologies that don't fail as often (belts instead of chains, hub transmissions, whatever) and when we have a way to find out what a warranty really covers and how good the company is at backing it. It would also be great to have a reliable (not anecdotal) source of the reliability of different manufacturers. In the car world that information is available and has made a huge difference in helping companies such as Kia and Hyundai which perform well while getting rid of companies such as Fiat and Alfa which have not performed well.

IMO it's not 'bashing' china, it's just that there's a lot of junk that gets shipped over here comes from there.
I don't think most consumers care where their stuff comes from as long as it does what they need it to, and they can get it at a reasonable cost. If they did we wouldn't have the success of retailers like we do. You could rule out Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, and on and on.

So bashing bike parts and bikes, and companies that import them, isn't about China, it's about standing behind the product as you say.

Let's go back to the cellphone as an example...
My iPhone6 camera quit working. I called and shopped around for a fix. Apple, and any 'authorized' repairers wanted about $350 to fix it. Well gee, you can get a brand new one for about $500. So that just didn't make sense to me. I was going to just trade mine in ($75) and get a new one. Then wifey pops up and says, "I'll bet YOU could fix that." Well gee, why yes I probably could. So I got online and sure enough, you can buy the camera part, front or back camera, for about $5. And $8 worth of specialty tools and some 'how-to' vids and voile - phone is fixed! So they charge $350 to install a $3 part. What's even more funny, I got the wrong camera the first time, then the wrong model the second time, so I had to take it apart 3 times. But the last time it took me about 10 minutes to do a "takes 1 to 2 hours" job.

The moral of the story is that a thousand dollar smart phone is still disposable. You either pay extra for insurance, or you buy a new one. I don't think either is the best option. And now they're programming them so just anyone CAN'T fix them - they have to deprogram them or use special tools.

I don't think we'll ever have the same kind of mature industry for bikes that we have for cars. Period. But I do think people just want what they bought to do the job they bought it for, for a reasonable duration of time.

 

[Ebiker01]

The smartphones are so outrageously overpriced.




If the ebikes would be as overpriced as a high end smartphone a top ebike would be 25-28.000$ !!

For about 60-90$ in what the parts cost and some R&D they want 1k as with the model 11/12 iphone. Very comfortable with an older model bought refurbished for 179$. Will do the same buying Iphone 11x in 2022 for 150-170$ refurbished.
And this company by legally maneuvering the system like many others do , keeps a lot of their tens of billions of $ in profit outside the US so that they can not be taxed.

Yesterday i had 7 items delivered by Amazon.
6 Made in China, one in Taiwan. I bet is the same situation in every household here or across the oceans !

 

[Browneye]

ebay used to be where people sold their second hand BS. Now it's just a front for China importers. And they knock off EVERYTHING!!!!

 

[Ebiker01]

It’s a huge exponentially growing problem ...1billion people there, now all of our farmers need to export to them lots of pork or else everyone will go hungry... not easy to find a peacefull solution.

Probably a future 3D printer will be able
To make at home any and all devices/tools/bs items that we buy daily including foods and ebikes(part by part) .
Until then we must BUY.

 

[Solom01]

I agree 100% on being able to repair items, but as consumers we get what we asked for. Anyone with an iPhone is part of the problem. Before Apple cell phones and laptops had user replaceable batteries, but thanks to people rewarding Apple by buying items that were purposely made to become obselete and hard to repair that's what we get. Guys good luck in repairing newer iPhones, the parts are now glued/fused together to purposesly make it almost impossible to take them apart, and their software also causes problems if a "non-authorized" user tries to repair them. But as long as people reward them by buying their products they'll keep doing it. Any old timers may remember wireless land-line phones. There is a federal law requiring them to have user replaceable batteries, but Apple lobbied to make sure that didn't apply to cell phones. I faced the same issue when buying an eBike - I got an Orbea knowing full well that when the internal battery dies I'm toast - but anything with a removeable battery was just too heavy. It also doesn't help to have reviews fawning about sleek integrated batteries and proprietary systems that depend on being able to find replacements in the future if the vendor is out of business or even if they're not if they still make and sell that particular piece - I've had to throw out an expensive iZip with an internal battery in the past because they weren't selling new batteries. Vendors and reviewers aren't going to be able to solve this problem, it's going to take legislation requiring items to be easy to repair and vendors to provide replacement parts for that to happen like they do with cars. Above all it's going to take buyers having enough discipline to not buy products from companies that have business models that depend on planned obsolescence.

 

[Browneye]

I agree 100% on being able to repair items, but as consumers we get what we asked for. Anyone with an iPhone is part of the problem. Before Apple cell phones and laptops had user replaceable batteries, but thanks to people rewarding Apple by buying items that were purposely made to become obselete and hard to repair that's what we get. Guys good luck in repairing newer iPhones, the parts are now glued/fused together to purposesly make it almost impossible to take them apart, and their software also causes problems if a "non-authorized" user tries to repair them. But as long as people reward them by buying their products they'll keep doing it. Any old timers may remember wireless land-line phones. There is a federal law requiring them to have user replaceable batteries, but Apple lobbied to make sure that didn't apply to cell phones. I faced the same issue when buying an eBike - I got an Orbea knowing full well that when the internal battery dies I'm toast - but anything with a removeable battery was just too heavy. It also doesn't help to have reviews fawning about sleek integrated batteries and proprietary systems that depend on being able to find replacements in the future if the vendor is out of business or even if they're not if they still make and sell that particular piece - I've had to throw out an expensive iZip with an internal battery in the past because they weren't selling new batteries. Vendors and reviewers aren't going to be able to solve this problem, it's going to take legislation requiring items to be easy to repair and vendors to provide replacement parts for that to happen like they do with cars. Above all it's going to take buyers having enough discipline to not buy products from companies that have business models that depend on planned obsolescence.

While I agree with most of this, the shaming tactic for buying what you want is frivolous and offensive. We'll buy what we want, thank you.
And while I'm no big fanboi for apple products, their stuff really does work well, especially the iPhone compared to android OS's. With the latter, there are a bazillion different flavors, so when an update is released you have to wait for your particular flavor to be tweaked to work, and then it doesn't always work. With the iPhone there's just one OS and it stays up to date. Simple, effective, seamless. I'm a network admin for a distribution company and we have all Dell equipment on MS OS - and it has to be the most buggy software ever invented by man. LOL

For a glued-in battery a heat gun will soften the adhesive enough to remove it. A replacement battery for my 6plus is about $8. But you're right - the later models prohibit third-party work on them, even non-oem parts can throw an error code.

And you talk about battery degradation and maintenance, well how 'bout them 'lectric cars? The early Leaf's were destined to have premature battery degradation. Which isn't so bad with a long range cell like the Tesla, but the Leaf started out with about 80-100 miles, and predicted degradation was 20% at 4-5 years. And many of them degraded more and sooner, so that 100-mile range turned into 50-60 pretty early on. If you had a 25mile commute you were nip-and-tuck. They paid for some batteries, but a LOT of folks had to buy a very expensive power cell for their not-very-old car. But people buy Nissan's like hotcakes. [shrug] And Nissan surely knew about it early on. Did they sell known-defective product? Did VW when they knew they cheated epa tests???

 

[Solom01]

Well, not wanting to get into a meaningless war but Nissan is sucking wind - they're in one of the worse positions of the auto makers. And as for shaming, it is what it is. If you help support a system that is set up to prevent repairs you're part of why it's happening. Have a great day.

 

[karmap]

Not sure how this got so out of hand and now all about China.

I don’t think this is about China as China can make good prodcuts. This is about a company that doesn’t care and has poor quality control/design control.

 

[FlatSix911]

Well, not wanting to get into a meaningless war but Nissan is sucking wind - they're in one of the worse positions of the auto makers. And as for shaming, it is what it is. If you help support a system that is set up to prevent repairs you're part of why it's happening. Have a great day.

I agree... however, Toyota has the worst MPG improvement of the major automakers.

Toyota's greenwashing conceals worsening fleet MPG, shows why they oppose MPG standards

In a PR response regarding the fuel economy fight with California, Toyota claims to want improved fleet MPG. But EPA numbers show otherwise.

electrek.co

 

[Balinus]

Reading this thread reminds me how we are lucky to have a "legal warranty" on purchased merchandises in Québec. It basically stipulates that goods have a warranty that covers a "reasonable amount of time given the price paid".

Hence, a TV that cost 4000$ should last longer than one that cost 800$, no matter the manufacturer warranty.

For the anecdote, Epson replaced my 4 year old, 2000$ projector for free, even if it was out of warranty due to a defect that appeared out of warranty. I had to send them a formal notice though (they did not understood the law). I also got free parts from Maytag for a "out of warranty" repair where I invoked the same law.

Hope you can pass similar laws where you live. It counteract the programmed obsolescence.

The Legal Warranty: Automatic Protection for Consumers | Éducaloi

When you buy or rent a product, you expect it to work. In an ideal world, everything you buy would be of high quality, durable, safe, free of defects and would meet your expectations! Unfortunately, that’s not always the case. The Legal Warranty: Automatic Minimum Protection The legal warranty...

www.educaloi.qc.ca

 

[Asher]

Maybe the best result we can hope for is what we already have with manual bikes - local independent mechanics virtually everywhere who can fix your bike, because the bikes are fairly uniform. Would be cool to have a mashup of Yelp and Endless Sphere with local knowledgeable ebike hands. Most of the fixes I've seen described here sound pretty straightforward if you already knew ebikes well.

 

[Jsaint]

My bike's battery power connector also looked like this picture. The issue with Juiced Bikes is they flatly refused to supply me with the newer socket that doesn't have the defective recessed contacts. In order to fix this problem I did the following:

1. Opened up the top cap of the battery. The plastic piece with the power button.
2. Unsoldered the main discharge wires to remove the discharge port with the contacts.
3. Used a soldering iron to heat each pin enough to soften the surrounding plastic.
4. While the pins are still hot, push the pins downward onto a flat surface to bring them flush with the receptacle.
5. Solder battery discharge wires back to discharge port and reassemble.

The other contributing factor is the sloppy manufacturing tolerances of some of the 48v and 52v batteries. I've documented this in another forum thread, but basically the lock pin hole in the battery is oversized causing the disconnects. When you also factor in some of the earlier frames that didn't support the entire side of the battery, the cause of the issue becomes very clear.

I know of four other people that have later build CCX and HF1100 bikes with all of these problems remedied. They do not have any disconnect errors.

What he said, but now with a video tutorial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq31UKj44RU