Yamaha warranty. Something to consider. "Frame made wrong"

[Greentween]

I'm posting here on EBR because they made glowing review of of Yamaha ebikes on Youtube.
I'm presently in a dispute with Yamaha over my Civante frame. This post is to inform how Yamaha warranty affects the consumer. This frame issue has been issue since the bike came home with me.

Now consider where you bought the ebike from, because that will have a roll in how your warranty issue plays out. And with Yamaha this is definitely the case. I'm in Illinois and there is only one dealer they sell thru. This is dealer is a very small ebike only retailer with no full time mechanic. If you bought from a motorcycle dealer, just hope they know how to work on bicycles.
If you have major issue like with the frame, their solution is to replace the frame. So what happens is this little retailer is supposed to hand build the bike from the frame up.

Now if I damaged the frame somehow from use, I could see this being a solution. But actually as I tried to explain to customer relations, my issue has been from day one because the factory built the frame wrong. I was expecting they just replace the bike. After talking with customer relations I got the feeling as though they have NEVER just replaced a bike even one with a bad frame.

Since i thought I was buying a factory made bike by a big name brand and not one hand built buy unknown local mechanic, I asked Yamaha's customer relations to replace the bike. Their answer was it was up to the dealer to do that. Meaning this small retailer is supposed to swap out the bike without Yamaha support for a replacement. Since my dealer is a tiny retailer he cannot afford to just swap it out without Yamaha participating in the exchange. So this is the point of this post. If you have a major issue with your brand new Yamaha ebike, don't expect Yamaha to step up to the plate and be proud of their brand and back it up with great warranty. They are expecting the dealer you bought it from to have the courage and honesty to do that for them.

 

[Asher]

Very sorry to hear this, and if true, this shreds the value of getting a Yamaha, whose 3 year warranty was among the industry's best. Obviously not if they don't meaningfully honor it.

Yamaha was already a weak choice given it's awfully small and remote dealer network.

It's probably too late but maybe your credit card company can help if you used a CC to buy it. Also posting more info/proof about the frame and Yamaha's response would help to allay skepticism.

 

[harryS]

Did you buy from Mike Ebikes, as I believe that's the only Illinois ebike-only store in Yamaha's dealer locator, Never been there, He used to post here.
.

 

[Deacon Blues]

What's wrong with the frame?

 

[jabberwocky]

This is how most bike companies operate. If a part fails (including something major like the frame) they replace that part and (generally but not always) cover labor to handle the swap/replacement at the dealer. I've had a few frame failures over the ~20 years I've been cycling and every time I was just given a replacement frame with the option for the shop to swap parts.

The issue seems to be that Yamahas dealer network is massively lacking. I don't understand how a shop can sell bikes but not have a mechanic who can handle stuff like this. A frame swap isn't easy but its also not massively difficult.

What issue did you have with the frame from the factory?

Very sorry to hear this, and if true, this shreds the value of getting a Yamaha, whose 3 year warranty was among the industry's best. Obviously not if they don't meaningfully honor it.

Not sure I'd say a 3 year warranty is among the industry best. The big 3 (Trek, Giant and Specialized) have lifetime warranties on their frames for the original owner.

 

[Asher]

Not sure I'd say a 3 year warranty is among the industry best. The big 3 (Trek, Giant and Specialized) have lifetime warranties on their frames for the original owner.

Good point. I was thinking of the electrical parts which have a three year warranty vs the 1-2 for most other bikes. Yamaha does 3 on the frame too which is lower than just about any of the conventional bike brands (but still better than the likes of Juiced, Rad et all).

Frame failures are rare enough that it's usually not a factor worth considering when buying a bike IMO... For established companies anyway

 

[jabberwocky]

Good point. I was thinking of the electrical parts which have a three year warranty vs the 1-2 for most other bikes. Yamaha does 3 on the frame too which is lower than just about any of the conventional bike brands (but still better than the likes of Juiced, Rad et all).

Frame failures are rare enough that it's usually not a factor worth considering when buying a bike IMO... For established companies anyway

Yeah, thats true. Honestly, I just assume that warranty and service is whats going out the window in the name of cost with the mail-order brands. Its fine as long as you understand what you're getting and (more importantly) what you aren't getting.

New players like Yamaha are offering nice looking bikes at decent pricing, but their dealer network is still really small and includes a lot of shops that are totally new to selling and servicing bikes (aka moto dealers). I do think theres something missing from the OPs post though. Swapping a frame isn't something arcane and unusual; any shop wrench should be able to build a frame up. I don't know if the shop they bought from genuinely doesn't have a mechanic able to do it, is trying to avoid eating the cost of doing so by refusing to do it until Yamaha pays for the labor, or something else. But in my experience almost nobody sends a whole new bike out for a broken frame, thats why you have a dealer network.

 

[PDoz]

New players like Yamaha

Yamaha were arguably the original ebike manufacturer - 30 years ago.

Frame failures are rare enough that it's usually not a factor worth considering when buying a bike IMO... For established companies anyway

Sadly, even the big manufacturers can have issues https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/giant-reign-2022-frame-cracking.28607/

 

[jabberwocky]

Yamaha were arguably the original ebike manufacturer - 30 years ago.

Yeah? They definitely were small a few years ago (a handful of models) but seem to be expanding their lineup. They obviously make motor systems for other mfgs. I'd argue they are still a minor player compared to Trek/Specialized/Giant and the new mailorder giants like Juiced/Rad/etc but I don't know what their sales numbers are like. Never seen one in the wild. Theres one local-ish dealer near me but they are a moto dealer thats diving into ebikes.

Sadly, even the big manufacturers can have issues https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/giant-reign-2022-frame-cracking.28607/

True that. Everyone has some small percentage of issues. I've broken a Lemond frame (owned by Trek), a Turner (high end boutique MTB frames), and a custom steel MTB frame (twice in the same spot). Thats out of dozens of various bikes over the years, but nobody is immune to frame failures. The advantage to the big guys with large dealer networks is generally issues are resolved painlessly. The Lemond was ludicrously easy to deal with; albeit disappointing just because I loved that bike and when it broke they no longer made it.

 

[Greentween]

In my mind there is a difference if the frame breaks from being used 2 or 3 yrs later vs bad since day1. Warranty wise - no difference.

Should find out resolution soon.

 

[Greentween]

Video of the noise.

 

[Greentween]

Still no resolution to this matter. Now waiting another 2 months for different part from Yamaha. I will make another post about that as they revealed information others may want to know.

 

[PedalUma]

That is weird. One bike company in my town has a huge warehouse filled with beautiful frames going back to 1986. I found out about it and approached them about buying some. They said, 'Nope, we need to keep frames of all models, years, colors and sizes because of the lifetime warranty.' That company is Marin. It is easy enough to swap out a frame. You start by taking off the rear wheel from one bike and putting on the other, .. and finish with the grip tape.

 

[jabberwocky]

Video of the noise.

I'm not clear what the issue is, aside from a noise. Is the frame broken? Is the noise caused by a crack in the frame and pieces moving against each other or is something inside it making noise?

 

[jabberwocky]

It is easy enough to swap out a frame. You start by taking off the rear wheel from one bike and putting on the other, .. and finish with the grip tape.

I mean, its not easy, especially now that everyone runs cables inside the frame. But its not that difficult. Undoing the cables (especially the hydraulic brake lines) and pulling them out of the old frame and then threading through the new one and hooking everything back up is the most time consuming part. I've seen shop wrenches manage that without needing to bleed the brakes afterward, but you gotta be really good to pull that off.

 

[sc00ter]

I got screwed by Yamaha but on a motor scooter. It would random start, leaving me stranded sometimes. This problem started 1 week out of warranty. They (Yamaha) didn't even offer a discount to have the issue looked at. So I traded it in as it was starting that particular week. Come to find out later that the wire loom under the floorboard was not protected by a wire loom and was wound around a sharp weld. The sharp weld was cutting into the bare wires shorting out the auto-choke circuit on the EFI. This was a Zuma 125.

Good luck getting the ebike sorted and please keep us posted on the outcome.

 

[jabberwocky]

This thread is really weird. I'm assuming OP is new to riding and maybe something is getting lost in translation, but (to me) nothing so far says this is a Yamaha problem instead of a local shop problem. Is the frame broken? It doesn't look like it in the video, but its hard to say for sure. I heard a clicking while he moved the bike, but creaks and clicks are notoriously difficult to pin down on bikes; frames are assemblies of hollow metal tubs and sound travels really weird through them. I've had times where I was absolutely positive the headset area was creaking and it turned out to be the bottom bracket threads, for example (and vice versa, and lots of other variations).

If the frame is actually broken (a weld failed, metal cracked, etc) I would expect Yamaha to provide a replacement frame and the shop to swap it for you. Don't let them off the hook because they are "small and only have a part time mechanic". Servicing the bikes they sell and handling warranty service is part of their dealer agreement and their obligation to you as their customer. If they are dragging their feet and blaming Yamaha for not covering their shop costs for warranty, insist they fix your bike and figure that out with Yamaha on their own time. Its not Yamahas job to provide an entire new bike because your shop doesn't want to service yours.

If the issue is only a creaking noise, what has the shop done to check for the standard creak sources? Have they pulled, cleaned and greased the usual suspects (pedal threads, cranks, seatpost/saddle, headset)? Have they checked that the internal cabling is locked up tight so it can't rattle around? Headset is properly tight? The bolt you turned at the end of the video is just the headset preload. Its only connected to a star nut in the steerer of the fork and shouldn't do anything if everything is properly assembled, which makes me wonder if everything is properly assembled. If you grab the front brake and rock the bike forward and backward, is their a knocking noise from the headset area? While doing that, wrap your hand around the top/bottom of the headset and make sure theres no movement forwards and backwards.

If you provide some more information you can probably get some more informed help here.

 

[Greentween]

Jabberwocky: Thanks for your input, but I have been trying to get this solved for 5 months now. All your suggestions were already tried in first few month of ownership, so as to give me the run around so I don't dispute it on my credit card.

Keep in mind the noise in the video is the clicking sound and I'm only moving bike few inches. When you ride the bike that same sound is way louder and happens all the time when hitting even small bumps in the road. The mic on the gopro doesn't pickup the noise as loud as it really is.

When riding the bike it sounds like some old broken POS bike that's 30 years old. I think those are called "clunker bikes" now. But I bet this bike sounds even worse,

I feel the frame is cracked in the top tube at its weakest spot. That spot is by the "E" of "Civante" decal. The metal feels very thin right there. Closer to the seat post the metal feels solid again. The noise is from the same spot.

 

[Greentween]

This thread is really weird. I'm assuming OP is new to riding and maybe something is getting lost in translation, but (to me) nothing so far says this is a Yamaha problem instead of a local shop problem.

This is reason for this post. Yes it is a Yamaha problem. Sure the dealer is on the hook to fix it for them, but on the other hand does Yamaha offer or require each dealer mechanic to have some kind of training on each model of bike? Do they supply mechanic with certificate as proof they received proper training to rebuild entire bike from the frame up? What if you bough from motorcycle shop, is that mechanic trained in bicycle repair? Im sure most things can be done by most mechanics, but Im talking about full frame replacement on an expensive ebike, so it looks and performs exactly like a factory built brand new bike.

 

[jabberwocky]

When riding the bike it sounds like some old broken POS bike that's 30 years old. I think those are called "clunker bikes" now. But I bet this bike sounds even worse,

I hear you, bike creaks are super annoying. They can also be incredibly difficult to nail down.

I feel the frame is cracked in the top tube at its weakest spot. That spot is by the "E" of "Civante" decal. The metal feels very thin right there. Closer to the seat post the metal feels solid again. The noise is from the same spot.

Most bike frames are butted, meaning the metal is thicker at joints (because those are higher stressed parts of the frame) and thin in the middle to save weight. The center sections of bike frame tubes can be surprisingly thin. Some of the old Reynolds tubesets had center thicknesses of half a millimeter. Granted, thats steel, aluminum is generally thicker. If you're assuming theres an issue because it sounds different in the center when you knock on it, bear in mind that the thickness is likely different.

Can you actually feel a crack there? Can you feel any movement when moving the bike back and forth and twisting it and such? Are you assuming its cracked because of the noise but can't actually find or feel any sort of break? Generally breaks (especially in aluminum) are pretty obvious. Aluminum (unlike steel and titanium) has zero ability to deform and return to its starting shape, so when it breaks it breaks.

This is reason for this post. Yes it is a Yamaha problem. Sure the dealer is on the hook to fix it for them, but on the other hand does Yamaha offer or require each dealer mechanic to have some kind of training on each model of bike? Do they supply mechanic with certificate as proof they received proper training to rebuild entire bike from the frame up? What if you bough from motorcycle shop, is that mechanic trained in bicycle repair? Im sure most things can be done by most mechanics, but Im talking about full frame replacement on an expensive ebike, so it looks and performs exactly like a factory built brand new bike.

Some bike companies offer mechanic training and there are specialized bike mechanic courses like what Park Tool and UBI offer, but generally its on the shop to hire competent wrenches and make sure they know what they are doing and are able to service the stuff they sell. I doubt Yamaha does any vetting of mechanic skill at all. Thats totally normal though, I don't think any bike company does. A lot of bike mechanics are self taught anyway; all the best mechanics I know have no formal training or manufacturer certificate or anything like that, they've just been working on bikes for a long time. At the end of the day bikes are not complicated.

A frame swap on a bike like the Civante should not be tremendously difficult to do. Its basically put your bike on one stand, put the warranty frame in another and start moving parts over. The biggest job is disconnecting the various derailleur/rear brake lines that run through the frame so they can be pulled out and running them through the new frame, but internal cables are the norm these days and any mechanic should be able to do that no problem. Its just tedious.

Whats the overall status? You've said [you/the shop] are waiting on parts from Yamaha. What parts? A new frame? Are they replacing something else? What has been the delay?