2021 Class 3 Commuter Ebikes Thread: A Comprehensive Listing

[Ken M]

Let me guess, you've never ridden a Ultra powered bike ? It has power from 1-35 mph effortlessly. I demoed a hub drive before I bought my bike and it stalled out from heat on one particular steep hill. My bike climbs it easily. Don't know about throttles, because it was the first thing I removed. Maybe not as efficient but with 160 N.ms of torque, it can give up some without a loss of performance. Try one out, if you get a chance.

The Bafang ultra produces so much torque that even at high speeds enough of it is delivered to the rear wheel regardless of gearing. That does not change anything about the impact of a bikes gearing. The mechanics/physics of this are not debatable....they are facts and I believe that the performance advantage that mid-drives have for climbing (using a bike's gear ratio to an advantage) is lost at higher speeds such that a much lower cost hub motor become as efficient and performs better than a mid drive.

I have nothing against mid-drives and I will eventually own an ebike with a Bafang Ultra but they are optimized for slower speed riding.

 

[Ken M]

I disagree on almost all of your points.

First of all It doesn't matter if road cyclist represent the whole cycling community or not. A human being can get a bicycle and ride it over 20mph and while doing that does not require a licence. As long as an ebike owner is riding the bicycle within the limits of a road bicycle without any assistance, that person poses no more threat than a regular cyclist.

So as long as the power and the speed limit is enough to keep the cyclist from reaching the speeds over a pro cyclist it shouldn't be a problem.

European system imo is nonsense. What should be implemented is speed limits on the road and making cyclists obey those limits. That means that if you don't have a licence plate you go 15mph in the city but it should not be implemented by software instead it should be enforced. They probably want to decrease the cost of enforcement hence trying to limit the ebikes via software instead.

Great response. Your points are dead on. It make far better sense to have speed limits on paths just like we have speed limits on road types for cars. Limiting the assist speed on an ebike to 20mph is all about protecting the investments made by the manufacturers of mid-drive motors and ebikes.

By the one guys logic, we should never allow Usain Bolt to run 25mph because most of us can even run 15mph without pulling a muscle and hurting ourselves.

 

[TForan]

The Bafang ultra produces so much torque that even at high speeds enough of it is delivered to the rear wheel regardless of gearing. That does not change anything about the impact of a bikes gearing. The mechanics/physics of this are not debatable....they are facts and I believe that the performance advantage that mid-drives have for climbing (using a bike's gear ratio to an advantage) is lost at higher speeds such that a much lower cost hub motor become as efficient and performs better than a mid drive.

I have nothing against mid-drives and I will eventually own an ebike with a Bafang Ultra but they are optimized for slower speed riding.

I haver ridden my bike where I thought that , gee , I wish I had more power and could go faster. 35 mph is easily obtained, even though I rarely go that fast. I would like to ride the Juiced HF1100. That looks like fun.

 

[Ken M]

I haver ridden my bike where I thought that , gee , I wish I had more power and could go faster. 35 mph is easily obtained, even though I rarely go that fast. I would like to ride the Juiced HF1100. That looks like fun.

No one seems to understand that mechanical and electrical efficiency are synonymous. A mid-drive motor may be running at 85% efficiency at say 25mph but if the front to rear ration of the sprockets is 44/11 then the overall efficiency is 75% reduced because that's how much the torque at the crack is reduced to the rear wheel. Without full specification we don't know exactly what the dynamic torque of the Bafang Ultra is at the higher speeds (the 160n-m spec is almost certainly the stall torque - the motor may be inefficient at start-up but it produces the max torque at start-up).

A hub motor may be produce a lower dynamic torque than the Bafang Ultra but it's all delivered to the rear wheel so the final result is that at higher speeds the rider may need to put in less effort say on a Stromer ST5 than on a Bafang Ultra ebike at 25-28mph. This may also translate to an overall efficiency advantage for hub motors even though most people assume they are less efficient than mid-drives.

If someone is commuting on a ebike and say spending 70% of their riding time over 20mph this is something that should be a big factor in their buying decision. There is a good chance a lot of ebike buyers are going with mid-drive ebikes that would get better performance and efficiency from a hud drive. I don't have enough data to know for sure but I do believe this is very relevant to this industry because most of the big motor producers are telling us that mid-drives are best for all riding and quite possibly they are not.

I wish this was something that was review by Court/EBR but without equipment it would be entirely subjective.

 

[TForan]

No one seems to understand that mechanical and electrical efficiency are synonymous. A mid-drive motor may be running at 85% efficiency at say 25mph but if the front to rear ration of the sprockets is 44/11 then the overall efficiency is 75% reduced because that's how much the torque at the crack is reduced to the rear wheel. Without full specification we don't know exactly what the dynamic torque of the Bafang Ultra is at the higher speeds (the 160n-m spec is almost certainly the stall torque - the motor may be inefficient at start-up but it produces the max torque at start-up).

A hub motor may be produce a lower dynamic torque than the Bafang Ultra but it's all delivered to the rear wheel so the final result is that at higher speeds the rider may need to put in less effort say on a Stromer ST5 than on a Bafang Ultra ebike at 25-28mph. This may also translate to an overall efficiency advantage for hub motors even though most people assume they are less efficient than mid-drives.

If someone is commuting on a ebike and say spending 70% of their riding time over 20mph this is something that should be a big factor in their buying decision. There is a good chance a lot of ebike buyers are going with mid-drive ebikes that would get better performance and efficiency from a hud drive. I don't have enough data to know for sure but I do believe this is very relevant to this industry because most of the big motor producers are telling us that mid-drives are best for all riding and quite possibly they are not.

I wish this was something that was review by Court/EBR but without equipment it would be entirely subjective.

Ride one and get back with me. I hardly even need to shift from zero on up to 35. When you have power to spare , parasitic loss is no big deal. I also don't like the weight imbalance of hub drives and the rear wheel flat hassle. To each their own.

 

[Ken M]

Ride one and get back with me. I hardly even need to shift from zero on up to 35. When you have power to spare , parasitic loss is no big deal. I also don't like the weight imbalance of hub drives and the rear wheel flat hassle. To each their own.

I agree that parasitic loss is not a huge deal but if the performance difference is tangible then as ebike fans we should want buyers to know the real performance benefits of the different motor technologies better than is communicated via the marketing (which is never truthful).

I can say one thing for sure, it's more important than knowing the difference in derailleurs and that is reported in all of EBR's reviews.

 

[Asher]

European system imo is nonsense. What should be implemented is speed limits on the road and making cyclists obey those limits. That means that if you don't have a licence plate you go 15mph in the city but it should not be implemented by software instead it should be enforced. They probably want to decrease the cost of enforcement hence trying to limit the ebikes via software instead.

1. System of police that watch you to make sure you obey the law, then punish you, but still don't catch you most of the time
2. Simple software that prevents you from speeding 100% of the time. No fines, punishment, surveillance.

lol you must like having people watch you. you could just cut out the middleman and get a webcam.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

Despite the abundance of ebike brands, it's hard to find Class 3, 750+ W commuter models. Why are brands so uninterested in this type? Radpower has a city model that's 750 W but still only Class 2, for example. Then there are Bosch mid drives that are only 350 W. There are a couple fatbike options, like from Biktrix and Juiced, but a fatbike IMO has some tradeoffs vs a nice balloon tires option like a 27.5 x 2.4" size.

I have a Juiced commuter, and for most American cities where you can't always avoid mixing with cars, the higher speed is a godsend, and more power means a better chance of accelerating past the cars. (I wish Juiced would make a higher power model, classed as a moped, in fact, in California anyhow.)

Again, more false assumptions and claims. There are plenty of class 3 ebikes out there. Juiced and Stromer aren't the only ones. They are not difficult to find. Not just hub motors, but mid drives.

Second, with a 28-30 mph top speed, you won't be passing many cars in traffic. You'll be able to keep up with slower traffic in 25-30 mph zones, but most drivers drive faster than the speed limit in those areas anyway.

Third, juiced was selling the hyperfat which assists past 30 mph.

What are "balloon tires" btw?

You are just confusing people with your posts since you refuse to do any research beforehand and throw out all sorts of baseless assumptions and accusations.

 

[Asher]

Again, more false assumptions and claims. There are plenty of class 3 ebikes out there. Juiced and Stromer aren't the only ones. They are not difficult to find. Not just hub motors, but mid drives.

Second, with a 28-30 mph top speed, you won't be passing many cars in traffic. You'll be able to keep up with slower traffic in 25-30 mph zones, but most drivers drive faster than the speed limit in those areas anyway.

Third, juiced was selling the hyperfat which assists past 30 mph.

What are "balloon tires" btw?

You are just confusing people with your posts since you refuse to do any research beforehand and throw out all sorts of baseless assumptions and accusations.

lol scorning me for not doing research but you ask me what balloon tires are... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_tire#Balloon_tires

Show me a few commuter ebikes with 750 W.

https://electricbikereview.com/?s=&...ypes=&_multi_drive_mode=&_multi_availability=

Commuter ebikes, 28+ mph top speed, 500+ whr (and really, you'd want a 0.7+ kwh like Juiced/Stromer offer). Put that in the EBR search, and you get Juiced, Stromer, and a few ebikes with 500 watt motors at best (continuous, not peak). No one else has 750W ebikes. Looks like you haven't done your research bro .

When I said accelerating past cars, I meant at intersections, where fast reflexes plus a full throttle will put you ahead.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

lol scorning me for not doing research but you ask me what balloon tires are... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_tire#Balloon_tires

Show me a few commuter ebikes with 750 W.

https://electricbikereview.com/?s=&...ypes=&_multi_drive_mode=&_multi_availability=

Commuter ebikes, 28+ mph top speed, 500+ whr (and really, you'd want a 0.7+ kwh like Juiced/Stromer offer). Put that in the EBR search, and you get Juiced, Stromer, and a few ebikes with 500 watt motors at best (continuous, not peak). No one else has 750W ebikes. Looks like you haven't done your research bro .

When I said accelerating past cars, I meant at intersections, where fast reflexes plus a full throttle will put you ahead.

You're not accelerating past cars, you're just starting off sooner in those cases. All eibkes are very slow and pathetically underpowered compared to cars. This is just common sense. A slow sedan accelerates from 0-60 in approximately 8 seconds. Ebikes require over 11 seconds just to get to 20 mph:

You're implying that ebikes are faster than cars, which is patently absurd.

Balloon tires are used on cruiser and beach bikes, not performance bikes like the class 3 bikes you claim are non-existent.

There are 15 pages of Class 3 ebikes here on EBR review list.
https://electricbikereview.com/category/speed/

As you can see, many of them have fenders, some of them are step-thru, and you can see how they're designed to be commuter bikes.

Trying to communicate with asher logically is impossible. In another thread, he claims that moustache handlebars or swept back bars are "aggressive" handlebars even though they're universally used to give the rider as upright of a riding position as possible.

 

[Asher]

Trek and Stromer use balloon tires on their commuter ebikes. See also https://www.schwalbe.com/en/balloonbikes.html

I'll pass on explaining my point about acceleration. If you ride in traffic with frequent traffic signals, you'll get what I mean. Drivers aren't flooring it when it turns green.

I didn't say moustache bars.

"The Postino is ideal for those who like a slightly forward position and those who like to ride fast. Like the Milan bar, it's ideal for converting old racing bikes for urban use."

You can make it more forward, just use a longer stem, or a bike with a longer top tube.
https://velo-orange.com/products/vo-postino-handlebar-22-2mm

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

Trek and Stromer use balloon tires on their commuter ebikes. See also https://www.schwalbe.com/en/balloonbikes.html

I'll pass on explaining my point about acceleration. If you ride in traffic with frequent traffic signals, you'll get what I mean. Drivers aren't flooring it when it turns green.

I didn't say moustache bars.

"The Postino is ideal for those who like a slightly forward position and those who like to ride fast. Like the Milan bar, it's ideal for converting old racing bikes for urban use."

You can make it more forward, just use a longer stem, or a bike with a longer top tube.
https://velo-orange.com/products/vo-postino-handlebar-22-2mm

The term balloon tire is meaningless. It refers to "large tires" but doesn't tell you anything otherwise. Try referring to wheel size and tire width for a proper discussion.

Drivers don't floor it usually but neither do most cyclists. Throttle + pedal assist is unnecessary. What's the point? Your goal is to ride safely, and using throttle to max speed at every green light isn't the safest bet. An unnecessary drain on battery as well.

My point about handlebars is that you are positing one solution as the only solution, the "best." Of the billions of bicycle riders, infinite combinations of sizing, handlebar styles, sizes, sweeps, you have the only solution. This is ludicrous.

 

[linklemming]

Maybe they don't need 750W or didn't want to risk the chain braking, draining battery, etc?

From what I heard, mid drive is more efficient than hub drive, it has something to do with engineering / physics.
That's why mere 250W Yamaha and Bosch bikes can go pretty fast for only being 250W and get really good range compare to hub drive.

Also the 250W is apparently enough to go up to approx 30mph for mid drive. I watched numerous YouTube videos on people getting SpeedBox or whatever to unrestrict the top speed (doesn't add any power, just unrestrict the top speed) and yes they do go up to 30mph.

Here is some simple physics

Note: this page works best when inputting power directly (i.e. 250 watts)

http://bikecalculator.com/

In summary(Rider weight=200#, bike weight = 50lbs):

150watts=13.8mph
250watts=17.8mph
350watts=20.8mph
450watts=23.2mph
550watts=25.2mph
650watts=27.0mph
750watts=28.6mph

My experiences agree with this completely.

I have owned 2 mid-drive speed pedelecs (DIY 750W tsdz2) and most recently an iZip Moda E3(250W, 530W peak).

Neither are as powerful as my hub drive CCX especially about 23 or so.

There is alot more to add here but I will update later if need be.

 

[Toomanycats]

As others have stated, road cyclists easily exceed 20mph, on flats they usually go much faster.

20mph limit is frustrating at times, especially when you can easily hit 20mph on low assist levels. You don't need 28mph, even 24-25mph would be a good speed limit for most of the commuters.

BTW the important thing is riding responsibly, obeying traffic signs, respecting other pedestrians, anticipating cars, riding defensively etc. Many road cyclists I have seen are much more dangerous than ebikers. More than half the time they run the lights, don't use their brakes when they can, instead of slowing down they rage towards pedestrians or cars.

I was taught to ride 30 years ago by a road cyclist. It seems like for them, momentum is all. Crom forbid you should ever have to stop, or worse, put a foot down.
With my ebike, if I have to stop for pedestrians or stop sign at the bottom of an uphill, so what? Just start pedaling and kick it up to “turbo” for a bit.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

I was taught to ride 30 years ago by a road cyclist. It seems like for them, momentum is all. Crom forbid you should ever have to stop, or worse, put a foot down.
With my ebike, if I have to stop for pedestrians or stop sign at the bottom of an uphill, so what? Just start pedaling and kick it up to “turbo” for a bit.

Do you realize that you cannot generalize from a single road cyclist to all of the hundreds of million of road cyclists?

So no, your generalization is not accurate.

 

[linklemming]

I don't know, the wattage and torque could be different. I'm not an engineer, but all I can say is if you watch YouTube, you can find people just by removing the top speed restriction, they can go above 28mph(45km/h)

The watt figures I posted are the amount of watts required to move the rider thru the air.

If the motor/drivetrain was 100% efficient you could equate this to the watts of the motor.

What Ken is stating "and I agree with" is that hub motors are more efficient at higher speeds. My experience with the tsdz2 showed this to me even with it set to 750 watts (for short periods, it got pretty sluggish about 25mph or so and the power display was around 650-750 watts to go any faster). The CCX pulls all the way to the 28mph limit I have set.

Yes, you can do 28mph on a european derived 250watt mid-drive. Taking the Brose speed motor on my izip moda as an example, its quoted as 250W/530watts peak. If I am putting in 200watts, thats about 730 total which is right at 28mph. I can do that but not for long as the motor reduces power and I get tired. It seems to settle around 23mph which would be 450watts and equal to the numbers I posted earlier.

 

[Toomanycats]

Do you realize that you cannot generalize from a single road cyclist to all of the hundreds of million of road cyclists?

So no, your generalization is not accurate.

True. Meant no offense.

 

[linklemming]

OK wait, let's forget about the numbers for a sec because we're so focused on the 750w & 28mph.

Are Juiced and Stromer the fastest commuter bikes on the market or will other bikes that are rated lower than 750w keep up with the Juiced and Stromer.

That has been my experience so far. I see several guys on bitirx bikes every day that I ride but they just seem to be cruising. It would be a fun challenge that Im willing to accept.

The only people that have ever 'gained on me' (on my CCX) were on stromers or CCXs. Ride reports from guys at the LeBS(who commute) seem to confirm this

Im certainly willing to update as things happen

 

[Ken M]

OK wait, let's forget about the numbers for a sec because we're so focused on the 750w & 28mph.

Are Juiced and Stromer the fastest commuter bikes on the market or will other bikes that are rated lower than 750w keep up with the Juiced and Stromer.

Because of the way the federal and state regulations are written the motor can be rated at any number from 1-749.999W and be compliant. That doesn't mean the drive system can't put out 2000W because motor rating is pretty much ambiguous (Grin Technologies website has some great detail on this). This is why many of the manufacturers are stating a nominal and peak power. To test a motor rating you would have to define the test conditions, so I could set up a test that pretty much any motor could be stated to be 750W (just changing the ambient temperature from super cold to super hot I could dramatically alter what wattage the motor would "peak" at before it got too hot and what the too hot limit is set at can be pretty much any number as well). What happened is that the law makers didn't consult anyone with technical knowledge when they drafted the regulations (their egos tend to prevent them from seeking expert advice on anything). Here's the good/bad news on that....it means the current regulations are not truly enforceable (most of us already know this) so this loophole allows "off-road" mode ebikes a decent market segment but the mid-drive manufacturers want to sell the same ebikes worldwide so they would like to close this loophole. Nothing will happen short term and it will require money hungry lawyers to initiate some president litigation to iron it all out.

All this is interesting conversation but what dense urban areas seriously need is effective human-scale transportation. It really doesn't need to be super fast - a top speed of 35mph would be more than enough for an ebike to be effective in almost all urban commute needs (a good reason for a powerful drive system is that it may take 2000W to sustain a speed of 25mph up a 5 percent slope with some contributions from the rider so it's not just about power to achieve the top speed). I think you and I agree that this doesn't mean everyone on an ebike that assists past 20mph is going to be zooming down sidewalks running over pedestrians as some seem to imply in this string. Bikers for the most part must be concerned about their safety so they will be concerned about others as well.

 

[Ken M]

Back in the day, Specialized used hub drive too..

Specialized Turbo claims title of world's fastest e-bike
https://newatlas.com/specialized-turbo-ebike/21981/

It's a hub drive, only 250W, but it's a 28mph speed pedelec?
A bit science fiction to me

The 2016 Specialized Turbo was a great commuting ebike. Would have been even better if they would have allowed 1000-1200W peak power during climbs. I think it had a walk throttle but they should have allowed it to be a "peak boost" button throttle with a temp cut-off if the motor or controller got too hot.

Personally I think Specialized made a big mistake when they abandoned that hub motor configuration entirely and went to mid drive on the next generation of that bike. Still a good commuting ebike but it's not as easy to ride fast / over 20mph.