2021 Class 3 Commuter Ebikes Thread: A Comprehensive Listing

[Asher]

After thinking about it some more, I think the answer is this:

Americans would like fast ebikes, but the commuter market is small, and insofar as it exists, the customers are still mostly content buying slower/weaker ebikes. Until people start avoiding those models and buying Juiced (and whoever else comes along), it'll stay that way. (Though there was an op-ed about how ebike sales outside traditional bike shops is very high, but the industry doesn't seem to care enough to change course.)

Other markets, like China, Japan, EU: fast ebikes, if they are allowed, are more restricted. Plus, a fast ebike simply isn't as useful in denser cities and/or good bike infrastructure. You don't even see that many ebikes in use in European cities - but they're ubiquitous among older people touring between towns. Between weaker reflexes at an old age, the higher risk of dying from a crash, and all the free time of retirement, speed isn't as attractive for older people.

And the big boy in Euro ebike components, Bosch, is already making a pretty penny with high market share - there's not much point in them going to the effort of building something bigger and faster, when you already run the show. (Brose motors also aren't very powerful). Plus, it could earn ebikes more backlash from pedestrians and regular cyclists.


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The best chance of changing this state of affairs would be an ebike road racing league (with higher wattage limits, 750+, but also a weight limit so that the ebikes wouldn't just become e-motorcycles). Then brand reputations would be at stake for performing better.

Bike brands wouldn't put anywhere near as much effort into R&D if they didn't have the Tour de France and all those races lighting a fire under their ass.

Another option would be a well-funded startup designing and selling these bikes en masse, but that hasn't happened yet despite years of opportunity.

 

[Ken M]

It really seems like there are a lot of mamby-pambies that think that an ebike or any bike for that matter going faster than 20mph is crazy dangerous. Obviously if you share the road with vehicles you are already at risk on a bike regardless of speed. There are situations that reducing the differential of speed between bikers and cars does reduce safety risks. That is just a fact but the higher speed does increase the risk of injury in some accidents.

I think the best arguments for a bit more powerful ebikes is the ability to sustain higher speeds up hills and into the wind. When commuting say 20 miles increasing you average speed 5-10mph can be a significant time savings and time is money (at least on an ebike your commute time is actually improving your health vs sitting in a car stuck in traffic).

Anyone that has an argument that assist speeds should not exceed 20mph should watch the video of on what some riders have accomplished going as fast as possible on human-only powered bike for 1 hour. I think the world record is an average speed over 30mph for that hour. Obviously most of us could not do that by I have hit 35mph without assist on many occassions and I didn't feel like I was on the edge of disaster.

 

[Chuck E. Cheese]

My guess is that most larger manufacturers are committed to a motor form factor, like Bosch for instance, which offers a speed version. They are able to offer class 3 to those who want it without redesigning their line around a different motor. I wonder if one of the big mid-drive manufacturers were to make a more powerful variant that could fit in the same form factor if manufacturers would buy it. I’m also curious as to why hub motors aren’t more popular in general. With a hub motor design the only thing that needs to be redesigned to accommodate a larger motor is the length of the spokes. I love the DD hub motor on my Stromer ST2. When I was shopping I rode a bunch of mid drive bikes with Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha motors. None held a candle to the street performance of the ST2. It really does seem like an underserved market.

 

[drm1125]

While on vacation in Phoenix, I went to a couple of bike stores to try different e-bikes. They had no class 3 bikes because they said there are laws against class 3 e bikes in Arizona. I believe they said you can't go that fast on trails and sidewalks, so they don't really sell them in Az.

 

[Asher]

While on vacation in Phoenix, I went to a couple of bike stores to try different e-bikes. They had no class 3 bikes because they said there are laws against class 3 e bikes in Arizona. I believe they said you can't go that fast on trails and sidewalks, so they don't really sell them in Az.

Lol sounds like there's zero bike commuter market in AZ. Not surprising given the massive sprawl and high speed roads AZ is prone to building.

 

[Ken M]

My guess is that most larger manufacturers are committed to a motor form factor, like Bosch for instance, which offers a speed version. They are able to offer class 3 to those who want it without redesigning their line around a different motor. I wonder if one of the big mid-drive manufacturers were to make a more powerful variant that could fit in the same form factor if manufacturers would buy it. I’m also curious as to why hub motors aren’t more popular in general. With a hub motor design the only thing that needs to be redesigned to accommodate a larger motor is the length of the spokes. I love the DD hub motor on my Stromer ST2. When I was shopping I rode a bunch of mid drive bikes with Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha motors. None held a candle to the street performance of the ST2. It really does seem like an underserved market.

Few people seem to understand that a hub motor has an advantage at higher speeds because the mid drives utilize the gear ratios that actually are impact performance negatively at higher speeds. All the torque of a hub motor is applied directly to the wheel.

 

[PDoz]

It really seems like there are a lot of mamby-pambies that think that an ebike or any bike for that matter going faster than 20mph is crazy dangerous. Obviously if you share the road with vehicles you are already at risk on a bike regardless of speed. There are situations that reducing the differential of speed between bikers and cars does reduce safety risks. That is just a fact but the higher speed does increase the risk of injury in some accidents.

I think the best arguments for a bit more powerful ebikes is the ability to sustain higher speeds up hills and into the wind. When commuting say 20 miles increasing you average speed 5-10mph can be a significant time savings and time is money (at least on an ebike your commute time is actually improving your health vs sitting in a car stuck in traffic).

Anyone that has an argument that assist speeds should not exceed 20mph should watch the video of on what some riders have accomplished going as fast as possible on human-only powered bike for 1 hour. I think the world record is an average speed over 30mph for that hour. Obviously most of us could not do that by I have hit 35mph without assist on many occassions and I didn't feel like I was on the edge of disaster.

Have you considered there may be reasons that people recognise there is a cost to running higher speed ebikes? It's not about the rider instantly exploding at 21 mph - but there are some very good explainations people are putting forward that go beyond saving time / travelling near car speed etc.

Look beyond your own riding experience and consider the global markets - countries where ebikes are sold in the millions. How many high speed bikes do you see?

Look for countries where ebikes are an accepted recreational option and allowed on all trails

Now look at some of the poeople suggesting high speed ebikes might not be such a wonderfull idea

. I personally don't consider myself a " mamby - pambie" - I've got over a million km of motorbike experience under my belt, everything from commuting to racing in both on and off road disciplines. I've ridden across desserts unsupported , and ridden out of forrests with brocken limbs. I think I have a reasonable perspective on the dangers of travelling at higher speeds on 2 wheels .

So to be completely clear here, IMHO travelling faster on an ebike amongst other road users WILL make you a risk to others. We have clear data showing vehicles travelling faster than other road users expect have higher accident rates. It's not about the rider personally posing a risk , it's about every other road user miss judging that riders speed.

Far more concerning than any safety issues for me is the social cost. The last thing I want is for ebikes to have the same image that motorbikes got in the 80's - that costs lives. Once a rider is seen as a second class citizen, other road users react differently . Think VERY carefully of the bigger picture.

 

[Ken M]

Have you considered there may be reasons that people recognise there is a cost to running higher speed ebikes? It's not about the rider instantly exploding at 21 mph - but there are some very good explainations people are putting forward that go beyond saving time / travelling near car speed etc.

Look beyond your own riding experience and consider the global markets - countries where ebikes are sold in the millions. How many high speed bikes do you see?

Look for countries where ebikes are an accepted recreational option and allowed on all trails

Now look at some of the poeople suggesting high speed ebikes might not be such a wonderfull idea

. I personally don't consider myself a " mamby - pambie" - I've got over a million km of motorbike experience under my belt, everything from commuting to racing in both on and off road disciplines. I've ridden across desserts unsupported , and ridden out of forrests with brocken limbs. I think I have a reasonable perspective on the dangers of travelling at higher speeds on 2 wheels .

So to be completely clear here, IMHO travelling faster on an ebike amongst other road users WILL make you a risk to others. We have clear data showing vehicles travelling faster than other road users expect have higher accident rates. It's not about the rider personally posing a risk , it's about every other road user miss judging that riders speed.

Far more concerning than any safety issues for me is the social cost. The last thing I want is for ebikes to have the same image that motorbikes got in the 80's - that costs lives. Once a rider is seen as a second class citizen, other road users react differently . Think VERY carefully of the bigger picture.

View view of speed if based on the fact that most riders of traditional bikes will achieve speeds of 35mph occassionally and I think they are very concerned about their safety and would not go that fast if they felt they were putting others at risk.

The 20mph assist limit really came about because it's about the speed where mid-drives begin to loose efficiency due to mechanical inefficiency thru the bikes gears. I just don't buy that it was a safety based limit.

 

[Asher]

I think most people riding these bikes at higher speeds are not encountering many other cyclists on the road, and when they do, they're more cautious. If you ride responsibly, more speed and power makes the bike more useful.

And I wrote above:

Plus, a fast ebike simply isn't as useful in denser cities and/or good bike infrastructure.

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I now live in a smaller, fairly dense city. I wouldn't buy an ebike, s-pedelec or not, for living here (at least as long as I'm childless). An ebike simply isn't as useful for my current context.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

fairly dense city. I wouldn't buy an ebike, s-pedelec or not,

Case 1: When I lived in Maryland, my commute was from College park to Annapolis, 28 miles each way and there were traffic-free, long stretches of roads that allowed me to cruise at ~27mph on my Stromer. It was a great experience. The silence, the power, safety that arises from traffic-free roads. I really enjoyed that.

Case 2: I now live in Chicago and commute to Argonne National lab which is 23 miles west of Chicago. The roads, traffic are all terrible. I am very attuned to the road and drivers behavior but still I feel it quite dangerous. very less trails or bike paths once you leave the downtown Chicago.

Unless, the infrastructure improves, we just don't see people commuting on E-bikes. It is dangerous, people are reckless and it doesn't make sense.

 

[Asher]

Yeah, it's very contextual. My Juiced CCS was brilliant for LA. An LA friend recently bought one, after I recommended him one. In some ways, LA is oddly suited for s-pedelecs - lots of traffic that makes driving slow, you'll frequently have several miles to cover, non-crowded bike lanes. Can still be dangerous definitely.

 

[Ebiker01]

I mentioned this before, but I will mention it again...

I just feel like some of you guys are assuming Class 3 ebikes are dangerous because presumably we'll be going 28mph everywhere.
(No, nobody actually said that, but that's what it seems like)

Obviously we are (hopefully) smart enough NOT to go 28mph everywhere.
But there are some instances where extra power or speed of Class 3 ebikes become really useful.

If you ride Juiced CCX, Stromer ST5, or whatever, more than likely you will be riding differently in these scenarios.
Yes, I agree going 28mph is dangerous in some scenarios, but it's completely safe to do so in some scenarios too.

Bh Easy morion NITRO CITY S-Pedelec another 28mph e bike for a serious rider. PleaSe don’t get on this bike or any pedelecs if you don’t have At least 10+ biking exp.
I have a cycling background, for proffesionals such as mySelf 28mph is nothing. We do 30-32mph in group rides on flats all the time , again on regular racing 16lb carbon bikes. So, for someone with exp. who does 30-40 miles with 27.5mph average racing speed going on A S -pedelec is 2nd nature. Actually is slower compare to my road bike so i’m at a disadvantage smtms. , but at least the motor does most of the work .
Best advice i can give is to always go faster then the traffic (wherever is possible) , fast in all intersections, and just keep it as a concept that going fast and being cautious always around cars is much safer then going slow.
That’s why drivers hate people on bikes- b/c generally we can not go fast like a car ..well common sense...but the road is only one and is made for both users.
To ride a pedelec safe your reaction time must be like mine’s - 0.25 of a second. And both brakes very lightly almost engaged, of course the front 1st for the 70% a stopping power and the rear within another sec., to be engaged fully if needed. Balance, apply your weight on the rear wheel, lift the whole bike if needed with your arms, momentum, be able to jump at least a 10inch obstacle ...this are all skills that take years to master.... so a 28mph e bike is NOT FOR THE MASSES. only a select few .

 

[Ken M]

Bh Easy morion NITRO CITY S-Pedelec another 28mph e bike for a serious rider. PleaSe don’t get on this bike or any pedelecs if you don’t have At least 10+ biking exp.
I have a cycling background, for proffesionals such as mySelf 28mph is nothing. We do 30-32mph in group rides on flats all the time , again on regular racing 16lb carbon bikes. So, for someone with exp. who does 30-40 miles with 27.5mph average racing speed going on A S -pedelec is 2nd nature. Actually is slower compare to my road bike so i’m at a disadvantage smtms. , but at least the motor does most of the work .
Best advice i can give is to always go faster then the traffic (wherever is possible) , fast in all intersections, and just keep it as a concept that going fast and being cautious always around cars is much safer then going slow.
That’s why drivers hate people on bikes- b/c generally we can not go fast like a car ..well common sense...but the road is only one and is made for both users.
To ride a pedelec safe your reaction time must be like mine’s - 0.25 of a second. And both brakes very lightly almost engaged, of course the front 1st for the 70% a stopping power and the rear within another sec., to be engaged fully if needed. Balance, apply your weight on the rear wheel, lift the whole bike if needed with your arms, momentum, be able to jump at least a 10inch obstacle ...this are all skills that take years to master.... so a 28mph e bike is NOT FOR THE MASSES. only a select few .

You points about riding speeds of good fit riders on road bikes is exactly what I've been bringing up to people claiming that Class 1 20mph assist limits are appropriate. I just think that if people riding non-ebikes can sustain speeds in the 30-32mph range for a reasonable distance then maybe that is where the assist limits should be.

As many have mentioned, just because an ebike may assist to 28mph or a bit faster it does not mean someone is always going to be riding at the faster speeds.

 

[TForan]

Take any bike with the Bafang Ultra and install street tires. Instant high powered commuter.

 

[Johnny]

As others have stated, road cyclists easily exceed 20mph, on flats they usually go much faster.

20mph limit is frustrating at times, especially when you can easily hit 20mph on low assist levels. You don't need 28mph, even 24-25mph would be a good speed limit for most of the commuters.

BTW the important thing is riding responsibly, obeying traffic signs, respecting other pedestrians, anticipating cars, riding defensively etc. Many road cyclists I have seen are much more dangerous than ebikers. More than half the time they run the lights, don't use their brakes when they can, instead of slowing down they rage towards pedestrians or cars.

 

[Ken M]

Take any bike with the Bafang Ultra and install street tires. Instant high powered commuter.

The issue with mid-drives on fast commuter ebikes is that gearing actually negatively impacts the delivered torque to the rear wheel. While mid-drives are wonderful for slow speed climbing because the torque is delivered efficiently or even increased by bike gearing the mechanical efficiency at high speeds is very poor. Let's say your on a 44T front and 11T rear....only 25% of the mid-drives motor's crank torque is being delivered to the rear wheel. 100% of a hub drive motor's torque is being delivered and at speeds 20mph and above even a DD hub motor is very efficient and will outperform even a high powered mid-drive like the Bafang Ultra.

This is just something the entire industry doesn't talk about much because most promotion $s talk about the superiority of mid-drives. Don't get me wrong, if you are one of those riders that likes to poke around town or on trails at 10-15mph max mid-drives are great but not so good for commuting at speeds of say 20-35mph (the higher the speed the bigger the advantage is for hub motors).

But if someone was to throttle a Bafang Ultra and not pedal and leave the gearing such that the chain rings are near parity it would perform much better at high speed.

 

[Asher]

Road cyclists aren't a good template. It's a bit like saying because Usain Bolt can run at 25 mph, we should allow people to bike on sidewalks at 25 mph. Road cyclists ride at select times, when traffic is more sparse, and will never be more than a tiny slice of the population. They're not ideal so much as they are manageably small.

The European system is probably better. 15 mph ebikes for riding with slow city bike traffic, and 45 kph max for replacing mopeds/cars in urban areas (as the Euro Cycling Federation explicitly says). And Europe is gradually realizing 45 kph is too fast for anyone, car or bike, to go in cities.

 

[TForan]

The issue with mid-drives on fast commuter ebikes is that gearing actually negatively impacts the delivered torque to the rear wheel. While mid-drives are wonderful for slow speed climbing because the torque is delivered efficiently or even increased by bike gearing the mechanical efficiency at high speeds is very poor. Let's say your on a 44T front and 11T rear....only 25% of the mid-drives motor's crank torque is being delivered to the rear wheel. 100% of a hub drive motor's torque is being delivered and at speeds 20mph and above even a DD hub motor is very efficient and will outperform even a high powered mid-drive like the Bafang Ultra.

This is just something the entire industry doesn't talk about much because most promotion $s talk about the superiority of mid-drives. Don't get me wrong, if you are one of those riders that likes to poke around town or on trails at 10-15mph max mid-drives are great but not so good for commuting at speeds of say 20-35mph (the higher the speed the bigger the advantage is for hub motors).

But if someone was to throttle a Bafang Ultra and not pedal and leave the gearing such that the chain rings are near parity it would perform much better at high speed.

Let me guess, you've never ridden a Ultra powered bike ? It has power from 1-35 mph effortlessly. I demoed a hub drive before I bought my bike and it stalled out from heat on one particular steep hill. My bike climbs it easily. Don't know about throttles, because it was the first thing I removed. Maybe not as efficient but with 160 N.ms of torque, it can give up some without a loss of performance. Try one out, if you get a chance.

 

[Johnny]

Road cyclists aren't a good template. It's a bit like saying because Usain Bolt can run at 25 mph, we should allow people to bike on sidewalks at 25 mph. Road cyclists ride at select times, when traffic is more sparse, and will never be more than a tiny slice of the population. They're not ideal so much as they are manageably small.

The European system is probably better. 15 mph ebikes for riding with slow city bike traffic, and 45 kph max for replacing mopeds/cars in urban areas (as the Euro Cycling Federation explicitly says). And Europe is gradually realizing 45 kph is too fast for anyone, car or bike, to go in cities.

I disagree on almost all of your points.

First of all It doesn't matter if road cyclist represent the whole cycling community or not. A human being can get a bicycle and ride it over 20mph and while doing that does not require a licence. As long as an ebike owner is riding the bicycle within the limits of a road bicycle without any assistance, that person poses no more threat than a regular cyclist.

So as long as the power and the speed limit is enough to keep the cyclist from reaching the speeds over a pro cyclist it shouldn't be a problem.

European system imo is nonsense. What should be implemented is speed limits on the road and making cyclists obey those limits. That means that if you don't have a licence plate you go 15mph in the city but it should not be implemented by software instead it should be enforced. They probably want to decrease the cost of enforcement hence trying to limit the ebikes via software instead.

 

[Justin Fischer]

The safety factor is brought up a lot, but here are some hard numbers:

Rider speed - Kinetic energy in Joules (If total mass is 250lbs, which is true for me)
15mph - 2,549 Joules
20mph - 4,532 Joules
25mph - 7,082 Joules
30mph - 10,198 Joules

When speed doubles, kinetic energy quadruples. Virginia Tech's helmet ratings are only tested at an energy equivelant to 16mph. Road cyclists going 30mph generally have much nicer helmets than casual users. Even if you are safer around cars at 30mph vice 20, which I agree with, you have twice as much potential energy to break bones in the event of a crash. That's why I wear one of these jackets and a MIPS helmet.