$10,000.00?

[mfgrep]

Thats why I said "generally". There are certainly people for whom bikes are utilitarian. I just suspect that of every 100 ebikes/normal bikes sold in the US, 99 go to people who ride mainly for fun and recreation (with some utility thrown in here and there). I bike commuted pretty regularly from 2005 through 2017 (and only stopped because I started working remote) and I wouldn't even say that it was utilitarian for me. I had a car and did drive sometimes, commuting on the bike was just more fun and kept me in shape for longer rides on weekends.

If we're explaining why $10,000 bikes exist, its because most people buy bikes for enjoyment, and what people are willing to spend for enjoyment does extend into the 10s of thousands frequently enough for those to be worth selling.

This discussion reminds me of guitars. If you are one...or if you know a 'guitar person'...you know that buying guitars can be addictive. Of course we can only play one at a time and of course there are plenty of $99 guitars out there....but many 'guitar people' own 10's of guitars which cost thousands (or 10's of thousands) each. Additionally....guitars require care and maintenance!....they are like pets!
Humans have consistently justified behaviors throughout the ages and I am not immune. My Cervelo buddy who likely rides about 25 mile per week but owns 4 bikes each of which cost more than BOTH of my ebikes put together?.....that's his business. Surely there are plenty of people that feel that my two Spesh Vados purchased for total $5250 is insane....but to me it was a bargain.
So long as my purchasing decisions are not a burden upon my fellow inhabitants of earth I say 'mind your own business' lol. My/your purchasing decisions don't need to make fiscal sense to others.

 

[jabberwocky]

Many would laugh at the statement that Teslas are luxury items.

Luxury item is a pretty loose term. I would argue that for most of the USA, a car is a necessity (Its very difficult to live without one due to how spread out things are and how unfriendly the infrastructure is in most places to anything but drivers). But that doesn't mean you need a "nice" car.

This discussion reminds me of guitars. If you are one...or if you know a 'guitar person'...you know that buying guitars can be addictive. Of course we can only play one at a time and of course there are plenty of $99 guitars out there....but many 'guitar people' own 10's of guitars which cost thousands (or 10's of thousands) each. Additionally....guitars require care and maintenance!....they are like pets!
Humans have consistently justified behaviors throughout the ages and I am not immune. My Cervelo buddy who likely rides about 25 mile per week but owns 4 bikes each of which cost more than BOTH of my ebikes put together?.....that's his business. Surely there are plenty of people that feel that my two Spesh Vados purchased for total $5250 is insane....but to me it was a bargain.
So long as my purchasing decisions are not a burden upon my fellow inhabitants of earth I say 'mind your own business' lol. My/your purchasing decisions don't need to make fiscal sense to others.

Ha, yeah, my little bro is a passionate hobby musician. His instrument collection is... extensive. Multiple drumsets, keyboards, probably a dozen guitars, a full recording setup with mixers and mics and... Its kind of the same for every hobby. Once you pull the curtain aside and start looking at what people devote to it you'll find some people who sink lots of money and time into them. I spend a lot of time on woodworking forums/FB groups and the rhetoric is strikingly similar to what you see on most cycling forums.

 

[mfgrep]

Luxury item is a pretty loose term. I would argue that for most of the USA, a car is a necessity (Its very difficult to live without one due to how spread out things are and how unfriendly the infrastructure is in most places to anything but drivers). But that doesn't mean you need a "nice" car.



Ha, yeah, my little bro is a passionate hobby musician. His instrument collection is... extensive. Multiple drumsets, keyboards, probably a dozen guitars, a full recording setup with mixers and mics and... Its kind of the same for every hobby. Once you pull the curtain aside and start looking at what people devote to it you'll find some people who sink lots of money and time into them. I spend a lot of time on woodworking forums/FB groups and the rhetoric is strikingly similar to what you see on most cycling forums.

Yup. I am not inclined to ridicule others for spending THEIR money on THEIR choice of personal property or hobby items.

LOL. I have a buddy that I swear must have invested THOUSANDS of dollars in marijuana vape related products. He has electronic vapes and butane vapes and portable vapes and desktop vapes and on and on and on.
I think that it is silly but it seems to bring him joy....so be it. It seems to be a hobby for him....and he reads about vapes...and discusses vapes on forums etc. I am tempted to inform him that a simple pack of rolling papers would suffice but I think that I shall hold my tongue. Surely I have made a few purchasing decisions that he does not agree with lol. Live and let live. Again...so long as it is within the bounds of being courteous to our co-inhabitants and our/their environments....who cares?

Off topic sorry: I had a job out in the country yesterday....a rural area. I could hear gunshots and what sounded like explosions throughout the distsance(s) while I was working. I asked the homeowner and he said "oh that is always going on around here". This was between 9-11am!
I'm a city boy....and those sounds were unsettling to me. I am not against guns entirely but I do not own guns....and I believe that common sense gun laws are appropriate. Us humans do not seem to have a median intelligence level to warrant our current lack of gun regulations in the US. Anywhoodles.....I don't want to get too political.....but just think about the many thousands of dollars that the typical homeowner spends on guns and ammunition in the United States??.....and people want to ridicule others for the price of their bicycle?

I read an article this morning about an Oklahoma couple who just vacationed in Turks & Caicos for a beach getaway. Apparently this guy's carry-on bag had 4 loose rounds of gun ammunition in the bottom of the bag. No gun....just 4 rounds of loose gun ammunition. I assume that this Oklahoma based fellow, like a lot of Americans, simply has loose rounds laying about so frequently that there just happened to be a few remaining cartridges in his bag when he threw his boxer shorts in the same bag for travel purposes. It really seems as if he had no ill intentions.....that he had no gun(s).....he was simply so accustomed to having loose rounds of ammo around him that being 'careful' was not a consideration.

Well...Turks and Caicos has a zero tolerance policy for any guns/ammo whatsoever and he is being held in jail facing a potential 12 year prison term. His adorable blonde wife was released and is now in Oklahoma with her adorable two children. Assuming it was a simple error....I do feel sorry for this guy. BUT.....perhaps we should be a bit more thoughtful and careful with guns and ammunition each and every moment of all of our lives? If a person has guns and ammunition so strewn about and so frequently that he could have loose rounds randomly sitting within his travel bag accidentally?.....well.....he is 'doing it' wrong.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I had the chance to get the tree Allant 9 but I shut could not see the cost worth it compared to the 8 carbon fiber would be cool but other then that and 12 speed it had the same components. from all I have heard the rear hub has been an issue. for around 12,00 I have all three of my bosch powered bikes including the tandem. Now my tandem has jumped in price from 4000 to 8000 with no changes but 2 batteries.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Luxury item is a pretty loose term. I would argue that for most of the USA, a car is a necessity (Its very difficult to live without one due to how spread out things are and how unfriendly the infrastructure is in most places to anything but drivers). But that doesn't mean you need a "nice" car.

Teslas are luxury items in that new cars are luxury items. Nobody needs to buy a new car and there is an extra cost in doing so. For luxury car, I view something ultra premium and comfort focused like an S-Class as a “luxury car,” other cars being “premium.” Anyhow, definitely splitting hairs. I absolutely see a huge chunk of the bicycle market as a luxury (item) market.

 

[jabberwocky]

Off topic sorry: I had a job out in the country yesterday....a rural area. I could hear gunshots and what sounded like explosions throughout the distsance(s) while I was working. I asked the homeowner and he said "oh that is always going on around here". This was between 9-11am!
I'm a city boy....and those sounds were unsettling to me. I am not against guns entirely but I do not own guns....and I believe that common sense gun laws are appropriate. Us humans do not seem to have a median intelligence level to warrant our current lack of gun regulations in the US. Anywhoodles.....I don't want to get too political.....but just think about the many thousands of dollars that the typical homeowner spends on guns and ammunition in the United States??.....and people want to ridicule others for the price of their bicycle?

I grew up in a (at the time) rural area. My dad was a pretty regular hunter so we always had guns around the house and I grew up shooting in the front yard. Still own several, though all I really do now is go out and shoot with friends sometimes when I'm home in PA. Its fun, but I have enough expensive hobbies. I do have friends who are very into various forms of shooting competitions (mainly distance shooting and 3gun). I'm not going to get into the politics of it due to its divisive nature but even in shooting the rhetoric is strikingly similar. I've seen people arguing over the best 1911, cost/performance of various platforms or debating calibers for this or that form of shooting and thought you could change a few of the gun names to bikes and it would be basically the same argument you see on any cycling forum.

 

[mfgrep]

Teslas are luxury items in that new cars are luxury items. Nobody needs to buy a new car and there is an extra cost in doing so. For luxury car, I view something ultra premium and comfort focused like an S-Class as a “luxury car,” other cars being “premium.” Anyhow, definitely splitting hairs. I absolutely see a huge chunk of the bicycle market as a luxury (item) market.

Are they really though?

I am guilty of scoffing at the countless outrageous 'vanity' cars (as I call them) in my geographic area. The new big Jeep Grand Wagoneer starts at like $80K! I constantly see $xxx,xxx cars every hour of every day around here. Have you seen the price of these fancy pickup trucks now?....they are everywhere and routinely > $80K. I see Rivian trucks every day....and the Tesla dealer down the street has 10 Cybertrucks sitting there as I type this. Every new huge Lexus SUV has a single female driver within it....and usually is unable to parallel park. I think it is CRAZY. I just bought a new CRV and thought it was expensive lol. I'm getting older and am of 'an age' that I don't give much of a s*it what people 'think' about me, my clothing, or my car(s).

While shopping for that CRV just prior to year's end....The Tesla model 3 was on my list of potential purchases. It was BY FAR the best deal given the list price at that time combined with the $7500 tax credit which was being offered. I actually spent MORE money on the CRV and I did not 'pony up' for the hybrid version CRV. The Model 3 price was akin to a new Nissan Sentra at that time.

I know that there are some more elaborate and expensive Teslas.....but the model 3 seems hardly a 'luxury' item at all. All of these Maseratis, Panamericas, and even Volvo XC90's that I see seem more like vanity cars to me. That Model 3 would have cost me < $30K which really was a bargain vehicle. Of course Tesla makes some more expensive luxury class vehicles too.

I really didn't want to hear the frequent gaffs from the Owner of Tesla in the news all the time while driving an thus beholden to the brand.....one of the (many) reasons that I passed Tesla in favor of Honda. I also found that the insurance cost(s) related to Tesla ownership are exorbitant imo. You need parts for your wrecked Tesla?....well there is only one place to obtain those parts. I strive to live a drama-free life. It might not be exciting but that's how I like it lol.

 

[CanNik]

I belong to another thread and someone posted a concern with a flaw on a new e-bike they purchased.

The bike cost the purchaser $10,000.00!!!

I know everyone’s budget is different but even if I were in a position where money was no object, I don’t see myself spending anywhere CLOSE to 5 figures for an electric bike!!

Yes, yes, I know all the to each his own sentiments but $10,000.00 for an electric bicycle?!?!?

I was looking at this Audi, yes the car people

Audi Electric Mountain Bike

Available in 3 sizes Large (body height 179–188 cm) Medium (body height 169–178 cm) Small (body height 158–168 cm) *please note delivery is around one week to arrive at store selected The Audi electric mountain bike impresses with its performance and progressive technology. The versatile...

audishop.jardinemotors.co.uk

 

[mfgrep]

I was looking at this Audi, yes the car people

Audi Electric Mountain Bike

Available in 3 sizes Large (body height 179–188 cm) Medium (body height 169–178 cm) Small (body height 158–168 cm) *please note delivery is around one week to arrive at store selected The Audi electric mountain bike impresses with its performance and progressive technology. The versatile...

audishop.jardinemotors.co.uk

Go bigger lol:

Porsche eBikes for men and women

Discover the latest Porsche eBikes in classic Porsche designs now. From e-mountain bikes to e-city bikes: a must-have for all Porsche fans.

shop.porsche.com

 

[harryS]

After watching vids of e-mountain bikes at the 2024 Seat Otter expo, I'm impressed at the technology and design for the suspensions. I now see the reasons for electric shifters. Recessed buttons on a road bike with no exposed wires/cables do have lowered air resistance. I could see how enthusiasts will spend a lot for a light ebike,

But when I'm riding my beater 40 year old Raleigh with its torque sense kit drive, it feels like a million dollars to me.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Are they really though?

I am guilty of scoffing at the countless outrageous 'vanity' cars (as I call them) in my geographic area. The new big Jeep Grand Wagoneer starts at like $80K! I constantly see $xxx,xxx cars every hour of every day around here. Have you seen the price of these fancy pickup trucks now?....they are everywhere and routinely > $80K. I see Rivian trucks every day....and the Tesla dealer down the street has 10 Cybertrucks sitting there as I type this. Every new huge Lexus SUV has a single female driver within it....and usually is unable to parallel park. I think it is CRAZY. I just bought a new CRV and thought it was expensive lol. I'm getting older and am of 'an age' that I don't give much of a s*it what people 'think' about me, my clothing, or my car(s).

While shopping for that CRV just prior to year's end....The Tesla model 3 was on my list of potential purchases. It was BY FAR the best deal given the list price at that time combined with the $7500 tax credit which was being offered. I actually spent MORE money on the CRV and I did not 'pony up' for the hybrid version CRV. The Model 3 price was akin to a new Nissan Sentra at that time.

I know that there are some more elaborate and expensive Teslas.....but the model 3 seems hardly a 'luxury' item at all. All of these Maseratis, Panamericas, and even Volvo XC90's that I see seem more like vanity cars to me. That Model 3 would have cost me < $30K which really was a bargain vehicle. Of course Tesla makes some more expensive luxury class vehicles too.

I really didn't want to hear the frequent gaffs from the Owner of Tesla in the news all the time while driving an thus beholden to the brand.....one of the (many) reasons that I passed Tesla in favor of Honda. I also found that the insurance cost(s) related to Tesla ownership are exorbitant imo. You need parts for your wrecked Tesla?....well there is only one place to obtain those parts. I strive to live a drama-free life. It might not be exciting but that's how I like it lol.

Yeah I mean I will always view a new car as a luxury "purchase," to be clear. It's throwing away a nice chunk of money to be the first to fart in the seats. Maybe the extra warranty makes sense on certain vehicles. I don't see a Tesla Model 3 (had one years ago), or comparable cars are "luxury cars" but that's me splitting hairs. I see luxury cars as flagship vehicles with a primary focus on comfort, quietness, etc. Other stuff is premium. Model 3 could also be a smart purchase financially, and a far better choice than gas cars for our planet and our communities. When people call Teslas luxury cars I have to push back because they are (in my experience) noisy and uncomfortable, even the S/X. Just another pet peeve!

But luxury item, luxury purchase, luxury car all mean kinda different things. A $9k gravel bike isn't what I would consider a luxury experience, but definitely a luxury purchase to pay $9k for a bike. A Load 75 for $14k is both a luxurious ride and purchase. I'm going to stop now because I really agree with just about every post that's been written to so far on some level.

 

[mfgrep]

Yeah I mean I will always view a new car as a luxury "purchase," to be clear. It's throwing away a nice chunk of money to be the first to fart in the seats. Maybe the extra warranty makes sense on certain vehicles. I don't see a Tesla Model 3 (had one years ago), or comparable cars are "luxury cars" but that's me splitting hairs. I see luxury cars as flagship vehicles with a primary focus on comfort, quietness, etc. Other stuff is premium. Model 3 could also be a smart purchase financially, and a far better choice than gas cars for our planet and our communities. When people call Teslas luxury cars I have to push back because they are (in my experience) noisy and uncomfortable, even the S/X. Just another pet peeve!

But luxury item, luxury purchase, luxury car all mean kinda different things. A $9k gravel bike isn't what I would consider a luxury experience, but definitely a luxury purchase to pay $9k for a bike. A Load 75 for $14k is both a luxurious ride and purchase. I'm going to stop now because I really agree with just about every post that's been written to so far on some level.

I hear you on all accounts most definitely.
My wife had a sudden loss of oil pressure in her beloved 11 year old Subaru Outback which resulted in a catastrophic engine failure. It was bad timing too....as the car market was heavy on demand and short on supply.
Sometimes I just have to do what I have to do.
I really like the electric car 'thing' and I'm all for it. I cannot afford, however, to be a guinea pig and I too am unimpressed with Tesla build quality. They are quite quick which brings a smile to my face, but I otherwise viewed it as all shiny glitter without much substance. As with all the things we have discussed.....the species of American human lol.....well.....they seem to like shiny objects very much....and things that go bang! I'll never understand it but what do I know?....I'm boring lol.

 

[indianajo]

I know that there are some more elaborate and expensive Teslas.....but the model 3 seems hardly a 'luxury' item at all. All of these Maseratis, Panamericas, and even Volvo XC90's that I see seem more like vanity cars to me. That Model 3 would have cost me < $30K which really was a bargain vehicle.

Every automobile emits 5 lb carbon per 20 miles, whether the emissions are at the tailpipe or at the giant regional power plant. See the Nova program Polar Extremes. Electric cars likeTeslas are particularly heavy. The suffering grandchildren will not look kindly on the insane US car culture of 2024. I have reformed, driving a car in the custody of the wife maybe 200 miles most years. My electric bicycle, pedaled unpowered about 80% of the distance, emits 1/100th of what a car does. People that cannot live without a car need to move somewhere else. I am not even convinced that public transportation saves CO2 emissions. The busses in my metroplex seem to carry an average of 3 people.

 

[mfgrep]

Every automobile emits 5 lb carbon per 20 miles, whether the emissions are at the tailpipe or at the giant regional power plant. See the Nova program Polar Extremes. Electric cars likeTeslas are particularly heavy. The suffering grandchildren will not look kindly on the insane US car culture of 2024. I have reformed, driving a car maybe 200 miles most years. People that cannot live without a car need to move somewhere else.

I hear you loudly and wholeheartedly agree. But I must stay put and keep on keeping on in the best way(s) that I can.....because if I don't I won't be able to afford my health care insurance monthly premium lol.
I try to do my part for earth every day....and I instill this in my 17 year old daughter (and her friends if they will listen). We have royally screwed this place up and changes are most definitely mandatory.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yeah I mean I will always view a new car as a luxury "purchase," to be clear. It's throwing away a nice chunk of money to be the first to fart in the seats. Maybe the extra warranty makes sense on certain vehicles. I don't see a Tesla Model 3 (had one years ago), or comparable cars are "luxury cars" but that's me splitting hairs. I see luxury cars as flagship vehicles with a primary focus on comfort, quietness, etc. Other stuff is premium. Model 3 could also be a smart purchase financially, and a far better choice than gas cars for our planet and our communities. When people call Teslas luxury cars I have to push back because they are (in my experience) noisy and uncomfortable, even the S/X. Just another pet peeve!

But luxury item, luxury purchase, luxury car all mean kinda different things. A $9k gravel bike isn't what I would consider a luxury experience, but definitely a luxury purchase to pay $9k for a bike. A Load 75 for $14k is both a luxurious ride and purchase. I'm going to stop now because I really agree with just about every post that's been written to so far on some level.

Theres probably some conflation between what is traditionally called a luxury car (which are cars like Mercedes, BMW, etc which have a higher end build/interior and creature comforts beyond normal cars) and what I'd call status cars, which are cars people buy to show off/signal some sort of status to the world. Status cars can include traditional luxury cars, but also includes cars like early electrics or hybrids like the Prius, which were often bought to show people how green their owners were (in addition to being transportation). Can also include things like giant pickups, which show the world how manly the owner is (or how small their pee-pee is, depending on the politics of the viewer).

People that cannot live without a car need to move somewhere else.

LOL. I mean, I think its great when people can manage without driving. I bike commuted for 12 years and have been without a car for several months at one point. But this is just fantasy. The areas of the US where living entirely car-free is even possible are very limited, and are almost universally ruinously expensive places to live. Moving there isn't a realistic option for the vast majority of people. Its great to see non-car transportation opening up in more places for more people (with ebikes helping that), but the US will continue to be a car-centric society for the rest of my lifetime.

 

[Rome]

This thread took a left turn somewhere.
Let's steer in on the right direction which is justifying the need for $10K plus ebike.
Watching from early on.
@fooferdoggie had the most logical reasons to pay for ebikes that is not cheap not too expensive because he can afford it. He needs the reliably of very good quality ebikes if not the best. He is the type of ebikers that would have a few good quality components on his bike for durability and reliability due to the fact that he relies on them for transportation.
Similarly to what I look for on an ebike.
I rather have a couple top gear quality components on my ebike than a bunch of junk.
For example at my work shop. The owner ( President of the Company) Has expensive tools, Festool wood working tools. I understand now why they are locked up in a vault with a highly visible sign posted inside. "Trained Personnel Only" to operate tools.
I consider my bike as tools. Not a status symbol. $10k WTF. Worth it.
Here is an example of people seeking attention and status symbol. Let me start with my relatives, my family living in Hawaii is not considerably big. I have nephews and nieces with RN degrees Masters some have Doctorate degrees.
Driving very expensive BMW Suv, top of the line Toyota 4 runners latest models.
Sad part of it is they are still attached by the umbilical cord to their parents. Living in a 6 or 7 bedroom house with 3 bathrooms parking space very often congested with $100k suvs.
If they need need to move an old recliner throw away excess rubbish because they only have one of each color trash bin.
They have the nerve to ask to barrow my old 1997 Toyota pickup truck.
They live across from my house.

 

[Gionnirocket]

You're all fuckiń delusional!
It doesn't cost anywhere near $10k to produce any bicycle.
It cost that much because people are willing to spend. Period.
Take this as just one example which actually comes with highly engineered parts that are 1000x more durable and the whole lot needs to pass a lot more stringent testing and certifications.

2024 YZF-R7 | Yamaha Motorsports USA

A new generation Supersport with Yamaha's legendary styling combines an advanced CP2 engine with an ultra‑thin and lightweight chassis to provide torquey performance on both the track and the street. - The Yamaha 2024 YZF-R7

www.yamahamotorsports.com

Just look at some of the detail photos... and then compare them to your bicycle.

And if you're going to argue that's not electric... Then take a look at this.

2024 Kawasaki Ninja® e-1 ABS | EV Motorcycle | Clean EV Power

The 2024 all-new Kawasaki Ninja® e-1 ABS EV motorcycle is powered by a compact brushless electric motor and features a naturally relaxed riding position providing a confident ride through the city.

www.kawasaki.com

Your bicycle is a toy.

 

[Rome]

Another 10 for riding gear.
My bicycle cost more than that motor bike.

 

[PCeBiker]

You're all fuckiń delusional!
It doesn't cost anywhere near $10k to produce any bicycle.

Your bicycle is a toy.

I agree !!
And I too am delusional !!

I've always liked Honda and I want them to make me a Honda Hybrid Bicycle.
The perfect toy for me !!

It would have a 49cc 4 stroke, quiet, clean running "generator" powering the electric bicycle and charging the battery.
The user could charge the battery at home and would only need to fire up the gas engine when the battery is getting low.

In Canada, an electric or gas powered two wheeled "bicycle" is still legally a bicycle if it has working pedals, it can't go over 20 mph, and the electric motor is less 500 Watts nominal, or the gas motor is less than 50 cc.

Something like this,..
But more of a bicycle than a dirt bike.

Something like this but less of an afterthought,..

One of these,.. with it's output changed from 120 VAC to 60 VDC to power the ebike and/or charge the battery.

No license, no insurance, no registration, no range anxiety, because there's gas stations everywhere. You just have to be 16 years old and wear a helmet.

I could ride it no hands without fear of getting a dangerous driving ticket.
It's just a bicycle.

 

[6zfshdb]

It's interesting that a $10K price tag and a gas generator powered ebike should appear in the same thread. I actually saw one last fall on Pennsylvania's Pine Creek Trail. It passed me on the trail, doing about 30 mph. The noise & exhaust smell were present for a half mile or so as he pulled away. An hour later, I caught up with the rider at a parking area farther down the trail. I struck up a conversation with the guy as he loaded the rig in his van.

When I questioned the bike's legality, he claimed he had been riding there all Summer and no one had bothered him. Personally, I think he was just lucky, since the bike looked, sounded & performed like a motorbike and it is a class 1 only trail.

Anyway, we got to talking about his "creation", and I have to admit, he had done a good fabrication job. The bike was an old single speed Schwinn he had converted, with a 1000W rear hub motor, disc brakes, front suspension and a Kinekt suspension seat post. It had a 36V, 10ah downtube battery with that same Honda EU1000i gas generator shown above, mounted to the rear rack. It powered a Grin Satiator charger which he mounted to the seat tube. I wish I had taken some pictures of it.

The guy said he had more invested in it than his $11K Riese & muller Superdelight, but he had fun tinkering with it.

I guess I can understand his point of view. I paid $4.3K for my bike and have spent close to that same amount customizing it. It's hard to put a price tag on the enjoyment I get from working on the bike.