1 Million mile EV battery

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Last month we were fortunate enough to sit with Prof. Jeff Dahn and see some of the latest results (in conjunction with Tesla) from their lab. He showed us some results of the latest generation Li-ion cells that last 6000+ cycles even at 105'F temperature.

The scientific paper was published yesterday after the approval of Tesla R+D team and it is making news already. You may want to read the article linked here. This is absolutely incredible.
Tesla will be making use of this technology in their Mega Packs and possibly in the upcoming vehicles.

Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles in 'robot taxis'

Tesla’s battery research partner has released a new paper on a battery cell that could last over 1 million miles,...

electrek.co

What is new is the "single crystal" NMC532 chemistry and advanced electrolyte systems. It could 6000+ cycles at full 100% depth of discharge. If you limit the charging to 90% and temperatures lower than 105'F, it could last much more. So, 1 million miles or 15 years of service is totally possible.

On an E-bike, let's say you build a 800 Whr pack (This NMC532 chemistry has 15% less energy density compared to NCA), and if you do even very minimal maintenance, it should last 4000 cycles ( or 10+ years).
How cool is that!!!

 

[Ebiker01]

But will they allow this particular cell chemistry to be used for ebikes ? Either if they sell the cells or patent them and let others make them.

Obviously with the Model 3 ( and the upcoming Model Y) obliterating all cars worldwide in sales numbers there will be a huge demand for this cells.
Ebike manufactures tend to like the battery packs to have a certain expiration date and Tesla shares their patents, makes Sci fi advances in their cell chemistry.
Hopefully they will make their own ebike. The Tesla Ebike. That would be cool.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

But will they allow this particular cell chemistry to be used for ebikes ? Either if they sell the cells or patent them and let others make them.

Obviously with the Model 3 ( and the upcoming Model Y) obliterating all cars worldwide in sales numbers there will be a huge demand for this cells.
Ebike manufactures tend to like the battery packs to have a certain expiration date and Tesla shares their patents, makes Sci fi advances in their cell chemistry.
Hopefully they will make their own ebike. The Tesla Ebike. That would be cool.

If they do, it won't be cheap. They'd likely price it at least 4 to 5 times more than today's 800 to 1000 cycle battery. It'd be valuable for UPS delivery ebikes or similar. Its more interesting from an environmental impact, and reducing the mountains of battery waste materials. Other technology improvements on ebikes will more likely lead to people upgrading sooner than the life cycle of such a battery were it to ever make it into the ebike realm. I wouldn't hold my breath though waiting for it.

 

[Slowpoke]

Good info Ravi.I watched your videos on your world record break that also showed the long segment with Prof Jeff Dawn.You ready to do a million miles on the Commuter Pro.LoL

 

[FlatSix911]

Last month we were fortunate enough to sit with Prof. Jeff Dahn and see some of the latest results (in conjunction with Tesla) from their lab. He showed us some results of the latest generation Li-ion cells that last 6000+ cycles even at 105'F temperature.

The scientific paper was published yesterday after the approval of Tesla R+D team and it is making news already. You may want to read the article linked here. This is absolutely incredible.
Tesla will be making use of this technology in their Mega Packs and possibly in the upcoming vehicles.

Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles in 'robot taxis'

Tesla’s battery research partner has released a new paper on a battery cell that could last over 1 million miles,...

electrek.co

What is new is the "single crystal" NMC532 chemistry and advanced electrolyte systems. It could 6000+ cycles at full 100% depth of discharge. If you limit the charging to 90% and temperatures lower than 105'F, it could last much more. So, 1 million miles or 15 years of service is totally possible.

On an E-bike, let's say you build a 800 Whr pack (This NMC532 chemistry has 15% less energy density compared to NCA), and if you do even very minimal maintenance, it should last 4000 cycles ( or 10+ years).
How cool is that!!!


View attachment 37999

View attachment 37998

Thanks for posting the link... very interesting article.
The bottom line is that the current technology battery cells should be fine for 300K miles... more than enough for most cyclists.

Earlier this year, Musk said that they built Model 3 to last as long as a commercial truck, a million miles,
and the battery modules should last between 300,000 miles and 500,000 miles.

Elon Musk makes incredible claims about Tesla Model 3 longevity, will offer battery module replacement - Electrek

Elon Musk is making some fairly incredible claims about the longevity of the Tesla Model 3. The CEO now says that a Model 3’s body and drive unit can last up to 1 million miles while the battery can last up to 500,000 miles and he says that battery module replacements will be made available. …

electrek.co

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Musk said that they built Model 3 to last as long as a commercial truck, a million miles,
and the battery modules should last between 300,000 miles and 500,000 miles.

This will be used for more critical applications such as grid-balancing, long-haul trucks, cargo ships, powerwalls etc.
E-bikes or scooters account for very small % of Li-ion usage. But, almost everyone in N. America use electricity supplied via grid and trucks play a very important role in delivering food, gas, and many other supplies. Cargo ships, trucks and large power plants are much more polluting than any vehicle. If we address that, we could really lower the carbon footprint.

This paper provides a comprehensive review of the biggest pollution sources:

Global Carbon Budget 2018

Abstract. Accurate assessment of anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions and their redistribution among the atmosphere, ocean, and terrestrial biosphere – the “global carbon budget” – is important to better understand the global carbon cycle, support the development of climate policies, and...

www.earth-syst-sci-data.net

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The EV community embraced this news because they understand the import of this result and how transformative it can be.
Prof. Dahn made the paper open access... and that is true science.

" Full details of these cells including electrode compositions, electrode loadings, electrolyte compositions, additives used, etc. have been
provided in contrast to literature reports using commercial cells. This has been done so that others can re-create these cells and use them as
benchmarks for their own R+D efforts be they in the spaces of Li-ion cells or “beyond Li-ion cells”.


A lot of news outlets picked it up:

Forbes:

Tesla's Battery Guru Describes A New Cell With Massive Lifetime

Tesla's battery expert, Jeff Dahn, has published results on new battery cells that might last 3 or more times as long as current batteries. That makes electric cars better, improves grid storage and renewable power, and may even help robotaxis finish their day. Let's hope it becomes real.

www.forbes.com

CleanTechnica:

Tesla Battery Guru Jeff Dahn Claims New Lithium-Metal Cell Outperforms Solid-State Batteries - CleanTechnica

Jeff Dahn, one of the leading battery researchers in the world, says he and his team have devised new lithium-ion pouch cells that outperform solid-state batteries. Dahn is the principle battery researcher for Tesla.

cleantechnica.com

Charged EVs:

Tesla battery experts describe million-mile cell in new paper - Charged EVs

At the Tesla Autonomy Event in April, Elon Musk said the Disruptors of Detroit were working on a new battery pack that would last a cool million miles, and said it would be available next year. Now Tesla battery research partner Jeff Dahn and his team have released a paper in which they describe...

chargedevs.com

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

My friend composed this very nice video about this technological development.

 

[The duke]

Wow, that's amazing. I agree it may be a little overkill for ebikes, but what great news for the future of electric transportation.

Now when are you going to let us know about cells that hold twice as much juice so we can halve the weight of our batteries and get our ebikes down to a reasonable weight?

 

[jim6b]

My friend composed this very nice video about this technological development.

Good friend to have.

gl

 

[FlatSix911]

This will be used for more critical applications such as grid-balancing, long-haul trucks, cargo ships, powerwalls etc.
E-bikes or scooters account for very small % of Li-ion usage. But, almost everyone in N. America use electricity supplied via grid and trucks play a very important role in delivering food, gas, and many other supplies. Cargo ships, trucks and large power plants are much more polluting than any vehicle. If we address that, we could really lower the carbon footprint.

This paper provides a comprehensive review of the biggest pollution sources:

Global Carbon Budget 2018

Abstract. Accurate assessment of anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions and their redistribution among the atmosphere, ocean, and terrestrial biosphere – the “global carbon budget” – is important to better understand the global carbon cycle, support the development of climate policies, and...

www.earth-syst-sci-data.net

Interesting global trends... thanks for sharing the link to the scientific paper.

 

[slayer1962]

These type of break through s would obviously change the entire worlds view of electric vehicles . I car that can get you 500 miles is going to make a lot of people think about an electric car.

 

[FlatSix911]

These type of break throughs would obviously change the entire worlds view of electric vehicles.
I car that can get you 500 miles is going to make a lot of people think about an electric car.

We are getting very close with the next generation Model S/X vehicles from Tesla…

Elon Musk: Tesla will increase Model S/X battery pack capacity with new Plaid mode version

Elon Musk confirmed Tesla will release a new biggest battery pack capacity for Model S and Model X with the...

electrek.co

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

These type of break through s would obviously change the entire worlds view of electric vehicles . I car that can get you 500 miles is going to make a lot of people think about an electric car.

Thanks. Wired did a really nice article on this and they talk about the implications : https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-soon-have-a-battery-that-can-last-a-million-miles/

 

[slayer1962]

I would buy a Tesla with those batteries. They could give a good warranty and then people would buy more

 

[Cyklefanatic]

I suspect Tesla is going to introduce a new battery chemistry next year that will allow its new pickup truck and it’s semi truck to compete with ICE.

 

[emtbdude]

Wow, that's amazing. I agree it may be a little overkill for ebikes, but what great knows for the future of electric transportation.

Now when are you going to let us know about cells that hold twice as much juice so we can halve the weight of our batteries and get our ebikes down to a reasonable weight?

That would only decrease total bike weight by a few pounds. The radrover battery is 7.6 lbs for example. Halving the weight only saves 3.8 lbs., barely noticeable on a 70 lbs bicycle.

70% of the US adult population is overweight, so the vast majority of riders would see a bigger performance gain just by exercising more and eating less. A 4 pound weight loss should theoretically be easily achievable by most able bodied, or semi-able bodied adults.

Ironically, better and more technology is making us fatter and fatter, necessitating more and more tech, which in turn makes us even fatter still in a never ending vicious cycle.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[slayer1962]

I am pedaling again at almost 58 years old!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Business Insider published a new video on this topic.

 

[The duke]

That would only decrease total bike weight by a few pounds. The radrover battery is 7.6 lbs for example. Halving the weight only saves 3.8 lbs., barely noticeable on a 70 lbs bicycle.

70% of the US adult population is overweight, so the vast majority of riders would see a bigger performance gain just by exercising more and eating less. A 4 pound weight loss should theoretically be easily achievable by most able bodied, or semi-able bodied adults.

Ironically, better and more technology is making us fatter and fatter, necessitating more and more tech, which in turn makes us even fatter still in a never ending vicious cycle.

Be careful what you wish for.

My BH Atom X weighs 51lbs and the battery is 8lbs. Halving that battery weight would make a big difference when I try to get the bike over my shoulder. And yes, I'm overweight....and trying to exercise. Having a lighter bike will make that easier!