Why no Specialized e-assisted fat bikes?

[Jeremy McCreary]

Too bad @Prairie Dog has stopped coming here. He used to post lots of videos of his fat-tire Norco on snow-covered trails.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Too bad @Prairie Dog has stopped coming here. He used to post lots of videos of his fat-tire Norco on snow-covered trails.

Probably because of the chronically obtuse that love to bash in threads like this about everything that they don't do or know anything about.

 

[Chazmo]

I don't have an answer to why Specialized discontinued their fat tire ebike a while ago. My guess is what some folks are saying, the fat tire ebike model wasn't selling well. This is a little off topic, but I thought I'd share some of my experiences with trying to create a winter ebike this season. There's a local recreation trail (an old railway line) close to my house that goes for about 60 miles. It's a really fun gravel trail to ride without concern about cars & traffic. It's also super beautiful and travels past multiple rivers, streams, lakes and ponds. I'm lucky that I'm able to combine part of my daily spring-fall bike commute back and forth to work on this trail. In winter this trail turns into a cross country ski and snow mobile trail (and brave bike riders). In my endless quest to ride year round, I explored turning my old Levo into a winter rail trail bike. It looks like the widest tires that you can put on an old Levo are 29 x 2.8. Our local bike shop and I decided that wasn't wide enough. I decided to try studded MTB snow tires and see how those worked. I bought a pair of 45NRTH studded tires. I forget how wide they are? They were the widest available. What I learned is that the studded tires were fantastic on ice and hard packed snow, but absolutely horrible in soft fluffy snow of 2" or more. The studded MTB tires allowed me to ride more on the rail trail this winter, but not as much as I would have liked. Anyway, I know this is kind of off-topic to Specialized fat tire ebikes. Turning my Levo into a fat tire bike was my first goal and studded MTB tires became my compromise.

I’ve been thinking about going with studded (fat) tires next year. There was a period of over 1.5 months here in central MA where the trails were completely frozen over. I didn’t have the courage to tackle them with my fat tires deflated, but now I have a portable inflator so I might try that next year. What you’re saying about the experience sounds right to me. And, without studs, I was able to ride on up to ~3” of fresh snow (no ice at the base, that is) without any problem!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Norco VLT1 Bigfoot if you can afford it.

 

[Chazmo]

Norco VLT1 Bigfoot if you can afford it.

Looks like an awesome bike, Stefan. I note that the VLT1 is out of stock, but the VLT2 — which has no suspension fork —is available. I don’t know if that means they’re not making any more with the fork, but could be a sign?

I’d love to try riding one of these someday, especially to try out the great components, including Shimano’s mid-drive, and the 27.5 fat tires (mine has 26”). I’m not sure I’d be comfortable on it as the geometry looks less “relaxed” than my RipCurrent. And, yeah, that’s more than twice the price of my bike. As discussed earlier, possibly well worth it!

 

[Mr. Max]

I’ve been thinking about going with studded (fat) tires next year. There was a period of over 1.5 months here in central MA where the trails were completely frozen over. I didn’t have the courage to tackle them with my fat tires deflated, but now I have a portable inflator so I might try that next year. What you’re saying about the experience sounds right to me. And, without studs, I was able to ride on up to ~3” of fresh snow (no ice at the base, that is) without any problem!

Chasmo, I live in New Hampshire. So basically the same winter conditions as you. It snows, then rains, all winter long creating layers of snow and ice. My nemesis has been sheets of ice hidden under thin coatings of snow. Before I got the studded MTB tires, I've taken some tumbles riding the Levo on the gravel rail trail during winter. Now with the studded tires, I don't have to worry about falling when riding on ice. It's amazing how secure they are in that scenario. Studded tires are kind of expensive, but worth it if you're going to ride over mixed, icy conditions. At least that's what I found. A fat tire bike with studded tires sounds like an idea situation.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Chazmo: the user @Prairie Dog rode the Bigfoot with 45Nrth studded tyres during harsh Albertan winters, and he even could ride a frozen pond! Unfortunately, he does not write on the Forum anymore for reasons unknown.

I think the suspension fork on VLT 1 was for more traction not for more ride comfort.
.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

On Norco's website it appears their last model was built in 2023.

I don't know the current state of Shimano mid-drives as to their reliability. But not long ago, these mid-drives suffered inexplicable failures by what appears to be through no fault of the bike owner. They just flat out and coded red, in other words. And for that, I wouldn't touch a Shimano mid-drive with a 10 foot pole.

On the other hand, used Haibike FatSix's with the Yamaha or Bosch mid drive, pop up occasionally on Facebook Marketplace, Craig's List or Ebay. Ditto the full suspension, Yamaha drive Full FatSix.

After a good inspection of the frame, I'd not hesitate in buying one of them.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

As for the Specialized e-fat, that was a Brose mid drive. And at that particular time, the Brose mid-drives would suffer internal belt failure.

I still have my 2015 Specialized Fatboy, analog drive. It's a well-built bike; but I noticed that Specialized sure nickle & dimed you on the components package. And if you wanted higher quality components right out of the box; well, Specialized had a Fatboy for you, too. Same frame, but a different paint job and a higher specced components package. But they sure increased the price accordingly in order to squeeze every red cent of profit out of it!

IMO, the company was not into fatbikes like a Surly or 9 Zero 7 was. So when the sales got low enough for their profits sheet, they just canceled the bikes. The real crime was that their 4.6" Ground Control fatbike tire was an excellent tire that was right up there with Schwalbes Jumbo Jim. And they cancelled that tire, too.

 

[Chazmo]

On Norco's website it appears their last model was built in 2023.

I don't know the current state of Shimano mid-drives as to their reliability. But not long ago, these mid-drives suffered inexplicable failures by what appears to be through no fault of the bike owner. They just flat out and coded red, in other words. And for that, I wouldn't touch a Shimano mid-drive with a 10 foot pole.

On the other hand, used Haibike FatSix's with the Yamaha or Bosch mid drive, pop up occasionally on Facebook Marketplace, Craig's List or Ebay. Ditto the full suspension, Yamaha drive Full FatSix.

After a good inspection of the frame, I'd not hesitate in buying one of them.

Mike, thanks for the opinion / warning on the Shimano drivetrain. I appreciate the opinions on these as I have not owned or even ridden a mid-drive (yet). I see Shimano is still producing mid-drives for fatties, and they list some other bike brand adopters on their website as well (not sure if they’re current). I don’t know if Bosch or Yamaha is still in the business.

As for your Haibike suggestion, this is one of the reasons why I wrote this post in the Specialized forum in the first place… I think the concern I’d have with doing that is whether the company will continue to be around and/or willing/able to help with service -- particularly with the electronics. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve now been through the implosion of one bike company (Juiced) and I’m on my own. The situation would not necessarily be improved if I were to purchase a high-end used bike like, say, a Haibike that’s out of productin. I don’t know how customized or even proprietary the components / software on the Haibike are, but at least in Norco’s case the Bigfoot still exists and they still sell new fatties. Anyway, that appeals to me. If Specialized had remained in the business I’d feel more comfortable about my choice(s).

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

@Chazmo: Whereas the Yamaha powered ebikes by Giant ARE proprietary (those Giant SyncDrives are Giant specific), the fat tired Yamaha or Bosch powered Haibike fatties are not. So if you have either a PW drive like I do, or a later PW-X or X2 Yamaha, any Yamaha part found on the 'net will work for each respective drive.

Ditto I believe for the Bosch mid drives as well.

Reading of your concerns about "service after the sale", I kinda chuckled for remembering the support Haibike would give customers after they plonked down big bucks for their H-bikes (this was more prevalent from what I've read in the UK and German pedelec forums on the 'net): Haibike's communication and eagerness to help owners, well...... sucked.

IMO, the company took a big, big turn downward when the original family owners of Haibike left the company and formed the Husqvarna ebikes entry into the market.

Regarding the rest of any used high end fat ebike: Components are components and can be found anywhere. I like Universal cycles, but any visit to Ebay will find whatever component part you need. Regards to the frame: I highly doubt a Haibike or Specialized would sell you or even stock, say, a rear triangle or main frame.....

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As for the Specialized e-fat, that was a Brose mid drive. And at that particular time, the Brose mid-drives would suffer internal belt failure.

Specialized has never built a fat e-bike. Pedal Uma must have shown his own DIY contraption
Well, I ride a Vado with the internal belt drive Brose motor. The first motor failed after 14,000 km, the next one works flawlessly so far at 12,570 km.

 

[BlackHand]

Ditto I believe for the Bosch mid drives as well.

Yes, this is correct. Also, any dealer that sells any brand of Bosch powered ebikes should be capable of hooking your bike up for diagnostics/firmware updates etc. The only potential thing you would be missing that require OEM programming would be changing the available assist modes visible for the dealer to enable or significantly changing the programmed wheel size. Both scenarios seem pretty unlikely to come up with a fat ebike.

As MTT said, the only proprietary parts on the Haibike would be the frame and in my case the battery cover and lower drive unit cover. They use XLC (Haibike house brand) for the non drivetrain and non suspension parts, but that's all easily replaced by whatever standard part suits you.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Specialized has never built a fat e-bike. Pedal Uma must have shown his own DIY contraption
Well, I ride a Vado with the internal belt drive Brose motor. The first motor failed after 14,000 km, the next one works flawlessly so far at 12,570 km.

Turbo Levo Comp Fat

The Turbo Levo Comp Fat bike was built to go anywhere, ride anything, and to do it all with ease. It provides all of the trail manners that our fat bike...

www.specialized.com

 

[PedalUma]

Solution: Move to a place that does not have any snow! It is so very easy, any one can do it, my little sister too, just like doing the Locomotion. Then ride all year.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Turbo Levo Comp Fat

The Turbo Levo Comp Fat bike was built to go anywhere, ride anything, and to do it all with ease. It provides all of the trail manners that our fat bike...

www.specialized.com

Ah, yes. Long forgotten. While still many can remember the BLOCKS display disaster that could have cost Specialized its whole general e-bike future

Talking to the Specialized rep a the EBike Expo in my area, the Comp Fat HT is going to be ending its product life. They just don't sell enough of them to justify continuing to carry the line. This may mean some deep discounts coming up before next season (depending on when it's discontinued).
That product was discontinued almost as soon as it was introduced.

 

[Base]

@Chazmo:
Reading of your concerns about "service after the sale", I kinda chuckled for remembering the support Haibike would give customers after they plonked down big bucks for their H-bikes (this was more prevalent from what I've read in the UK and German pedelec forums on the 'net): Haibike's communication and eagerness to help owners, well...... sucked.

IMO, the company took a big, big turn downward when the original family owners of Haibike left the company and formed the Husqvarna ebikes entry into the market.

Haibike is a dealer orientated brand, so they would always try to get you sorted via a dealer. It would even be impossible to ship goods to a private person or a non-dealer account.

and Pexco GMBH was not started by the former manager from Winora nor by the guy from KTM bicycle. Also Pexco sares are currently at Perrier as far as I recall (and PM AG does great at the moment...)

 

[Chazmo]

Haibike is a dealer orientated brand, so they would always try to get you sorted via a dealer. It would even be impossible to ship goods to a private person or a non-dealer account.

Base, that’s really what I meant in terms of after-purchase longevity, etc… I don’t know if there’s much of a Haibike network out here in New England, USA, but the point is to be able to get parts and service. If very little is proprietary, all the better. The problem with my Juiced bike is that the controller and display are proprietary. I actually have a bunch of spare parts available to me from my parts bike.

The great thing about Specialized, at least from my point of view, is dealer support is a non-issue. They’re everywhere. Proprietary stuff notwithstanding, if the company is there and parts/service are available that’s the key for me.

MikeTT’s comments about the Bosch/Yamaha mid-drive systems not being proprietary do make it possible, I guess, for me to consider a used fattie from a company that no longer makes them. I’ll have to give that a good think down the road, depending on if/when I can no longer fix and replace parts myself on my Juiced RipCurrent S (which incidentally just turned a year old, and which I have 1800mi on).

 

[Chazmo]

Ah, yes. Long forgotten. While still many can remember the BLOCKS display disaster that could have cost Specialized its whole general e-bike future

Talking to the Specialized rep a the EBike Expo in my area, the Comp Fat HT is going to be ending its product life. They just don't sell enough of them to justify continuing to carry the line. This may mean some deep discounts coming up before next season (depending on when it's discontinued).
That product was discontinued almost as soon as it was introduced.

There you have it. Thanks, Stefan.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

@Chazmo: I know that Electric Bikes of New England over in Derry, NH was at one time, probably the biggest east coast Haibike dealer. At the time I was looking in 2016, it was either them or Crazy Lenny, who was probably the biggest Haibike dealer of all. Link for Electric Bikes of New England: https://ebikesofne.com/. Ebikes 508 in MA used to carry a good number of H-bikes in the last years of H-Bike being in the USA. H-Bike USA did an end-around on the established US dealers by selling their ebikes on line. The Black Friday sales by Haibike USA had to be especially hurtful to these brick and mortar dealers. Maybe worth a shot to pick the brains of E bikes of New England as to getting parts exclusive to Haibike.

Keep in mind that established players like Specialized are not going to have parts available for older, discontinued ebikes. Trek doesn't either, based on my own personal experience with an older full suspension analog mtb. I recall reading here of folks having issues here with their older S-bike battery and the company was of no help at all whatsoever for them. It's a situation not exclusive just to Haibike, it's pretty much status quo for every large and middling bicycle manufacturer.

The biggest testimonial I can give to my Full FatSix and the Yamaha ebike drive and battery system is this: In 19,162 miles since buying it in March, 2017 (last 2 years, I've been off the bike tending to my elderly Mom...); I've had zero issues with the battery, motor, display or wiring. Oh, one time on the trail, my rear spoke magnet came loose. Tightened it up trailside and went my way. Over the years, I've upgraded the handlebar and grips, pedals, changed out brake pads as they wore out, installed front and rear old man mountain racks, bought 3 new 500wh batteries to extend my riding range.... on an annual basis I would change the display's watch battery. And of course, new tires and tubes. I installed a PearTune speed chip and had a Schmidt SON 28 front dyno hub laced on the factory rim (kept the original spokes, too) and to that hub, I installed a Schmidt SON front and rear lighting system. The fun of bike ownership are the upgrade details we can lavish on our rigs!

My own personal experience has led me to believe that any good used Haibike or Bulls fatty (with the Bosch drive) is going to return thousands of miles of trouble free service. And keep in mind, I did not beat on my bike. Did not ford into water up to and beyond the motor.