concerns with ebikes laws and ways to improve them

[Jeremy McCreary]

Air drag is proportional to the square of the airspeed, so if you're traveling twice as fast (whether you're actually going twice as fast or you're going, say, 10 mph into a 10 mph headwind) it's four times the air drag.

True, and the mechanical power needed to overcome air drag (a force) at speed V through still air is proportional to V³. So doubling V increases the aerodynamic power loss by a factor of 8!

In assisted pedaling, the power lost to total (aerodynamic+rolling+slope) resistance is ultimately what drains your battery and drives perceived exertion. So that V³ is a fact of life that can't be ignored.

The aerodynamic power loss is also proportional to drag area CdA. This is the factor you reduce with more aero posture and clothing. Cutting CdA by 20% (quite doable) cuts aerodynamic power loss by 20% at all speeds. That's no small thing.

 

[Ken M]

you keep saying the same (often untrue or irrelevant) things over and over again, so please don’t bother replying.

The official men's UCI Hour Record is held by Italian cyclist Filippo Ganna, who covered a distance of (56.792 km on October 8, 2022.
That's 56kph which is right at 34mph. An incredible record but don't lie to the people reading these forums or call me a liar.

 

[Ken M]

Above those speeds human power only is required.

This is wrong. HR727 allows the assist that sustains 20mph motor alone to continue with the human effort adding to it for faster speeds. But if run simulations that typically results in assist + rider input speeds around 28-30mph so HR727 was a great regulation that few have taken the time to understand.

 

[Chargeride]

Well its gone now and we are facing far more authoritarian governments as the power of mass surviellance and electronic leashes start to fill their minds with dollar signs.

 

[BEC111]

This is wrong. HR727 allows the assist that sustains 20mph motor alone to continue with the human effort adding to it for faster speeds. But if run simulations that typically results in assist + rider input speeds around 28-30mph so HR727 was a great regulation that few have taken the time to understand.

Thanks for the clarification. I had trouble with the wording.

 

[stompandgo]

The official men's UCI Hour Record is held by Italian cyclist Filippo Ganna, who covered a distance of (56.792 km on October 8, 2022.
That's 56kph which is right at 34mph. An incredible record but don't lie to the people reading these forums or call me a liar.

Absolutely true. It was on a track bike at an indoor velodrome at altitude. This is how all hour records are set.

That said, it is not unusual for a group of cyclists to average 33mph for 90 minutes in a criterium race. Top speeds are over 40mph. The power of the peloton is real. You may not see those kinds of speeds on your local rail trail, but you may very well see a group of analog cyclists doing 25-28mph. That's Class 3 e-bike speed.

I don't care that much how speeds and riding are regulated on public MUPs. Whatever is chosen, I just want it enforced. Otherwise, it's worthless.

 

[jabberwocky]

Absolutely true. It was on a track bike at an indoor velodrome at altitude. This is how all hour records are set.

The issue is holding up these sorts of speed as if they are in any way normal or useful for general e-bike regulation, which is what Ken likes to do. They are exceptional, set by world class athletes under carefully curated conditions on very specialized equipment.

A more useful metric if you want to know real world absolute max speeds is just look at strava segments on your local MUP. They won't be 34mph. Just for example, a few on the rail trail near me:

Belmont climb | Strava Ride Segment in Loudoun County, Virginia

View Ride segment | Strava

www.strava.com

This is a 1.35mi segment on the W&OD, slightly uphill (gains 69ft over 1.35mi, so about 1%). Its been ridden hundreds of thousands of times by about 30k people. The fastest avg speed recorded is 25.4mph, so under class 3 speed.

Or https://www.strava.com/segments/31166371
A longer segment on the same rail trail that is a 10 mile round trip. Absolute best average speed is 23.5mph.

Those are the pinnacle of real world performance, almost certainly set when the rider had ideal conditions (tailwind, good weather) because thats what KOM hunters do.

 

[Ken M]

Its worth noting that Ken is not an ebike advocate, hes a zealot for the early 2000s CPSC ebike definition only, and cares about almost nothing beyond that.

I just want ebikes to reach their full potential for urban mobility. They are the most efficient means to go from A-to-B - more efficient than walking when consumption calories are considered and as efficient as a full loaded passenger train. If an ebike that an ebike that provides any assist beyond 20mph or has a throttle is required to have registration and insurance those costs will just prevent most from getting out of their cars.

You have been critical of my views of HR727 since the 1st post I made suggesting it was a bill intended to allow a compliant ebike to be considered just another bike. Why not engage on the details of HR727 (all states approved it in Congress) vs the 3 class legislation instead of implying me intentions are not pro-ebike?

 

[Ken M]

Those are the pinnacle of real world performance,

Yes, I understand this. The point is that traditional bike speeds can be too fast for some infrastructure so speed limits on that infrastructure makes sense (not just adopting assist limits of 15mph like in Europe). There are many sports cars that can go above 200mph and we certainly don't want them doing that true neighborhoods so there are speed limits on that infrastructure and not on the cars themselves.

There is some data out of Europe that shows that the vast majority of riders feel comfortable hitting speeds of 28-30mph going down a hill so I think that is a good point to set the assist limit of ebikes (on ebikes without registration and insurance requirements). HR727 effectively did that by allowing assist to sustain 20mph motor alone but allowing that assist to remain at higher speeds so long as the higher speed is the result of the rider's added effort. This makes great sense but of course you never want to debate the logic of my position.

 

[Ken M]

on very specialized equipment.

That equipment is not banned on bikes using public infrastructure as some class 3 ebikes are.

 

[jabberwocky]

You have been critical of my views of HR727 since the 1st post I made suggesting it was a bill intended to allow a compliant ebike to be considered just another bike. Why not engage on the details of HR727 (all states approved it in Congress) vs the 3 class legislation instead of implying me intentions are not pro-ebike?

I (and many others) have. Over and over. You have zero idea or experience how cycling advocacy works, have been openly contemptuous of concerns of other user groups and have shown zero concern for ebike access beyond "it needs to be on the terms I think are ideal and if managing jurisdictions or other stakeholders don't like it, my unique interpretation of the legal situation says we can just force it over their objections". Thats why I don't consider you an ebike advocate. Or at least a serious one. I understand that you think that the early 2000s CPSC definition somehow overrides all state laws and that managing agencies have no control over usage of their infrastructure because that one perfect 25 year old definition makes ebikes the same as bikes. Thats very obviously not reality (can you point to a single instance where the CPSC even tried to legally challenge any state or local agencies regulation of ebikes or challenge their access restrictions, anywhere in the USA over the past 25 years?)

I get you like the CPSC definition. I suspect you like it because its very vague, and would therefore be difficult to enforce. Thats also the reason that pretty much no state has taken it up. The 3 class system is less vague and therefore easier to enforce, which is why most managing agencies prefer it. At this point I would say that particular battle is long over.

Yes, I understand this. The point is that traditional bike speeds can be too fast for some infrastructure so speed limits on that infrastructure makes sense (not just adopting assist limits of 15mph like in Europe). There are many sports cars that can go above 200mph and we certainly don't want them doing that true neighborhoods so there are speed limits on that infrastructure and not on the cars themselves.

If you want to ride 2 wheel vehicles with unrestricted top speeds just like cars (and all the restrictions that come with that), motorcycles are available. At least around me, there is zero chance that any MUP managing agency is going to go "oh ok, we will allow vaguely restricted powered vehicles on our infrastructure and will just set up speed limits and an enforcement regime to somehow deal with the very obvious conflict issues that will arise.". If thats whats being asked they will just ban ebikes entirely. All the MUPs near me are managed by park departments with no budget for enforcement anyway.

Additionally, I've pointed out (many times) that singletrack/trail will pretty universally not allow throttles. I would personally like access to that on my emtb. Your idea that we ditch the 3 class system and have a single ebike that has throttles and no defined top speed would probably kill any chance at access to most singletrack (which is, I will point out, already pretty limited). I have pointed that out to you, and you've basically handwaved it away or said oh well, if we lose that access to get your preferred definition so be it. Which, again, makes you not a serious ebike advocate.

 

[Biplaneguy]

Thing is, while manual bikes can reach 30mph or more, so few ordinary riders of manual bikes can maintain a high speed that it's never been a problem that the authorities needed to address. Ebikes make it easy for everybody to go fast, so now it's a problem that they don't know how to deal with, so they lash out by throwing laws at the problem.

 

[RunForTheHills]

The current laws are adequate to solve the problem of kids riding illegal emotos in a dangerous manner. The problem is with enforcement. Or maybe you just accept a certain rate of accidents and fatalities for ebikes as a trade off for the convenience of having them, like we have for cars. Because cars aren't safe.

 

[jabberwocky]

Thing is, while manual bikes can reach 30mph or more, so few ordinary riders of manual bikes can maintain a high speed that it's never been a problem that the authorities needed to address. Ebikes make it easy for everybody to go fast, so now it's a problem that they don't know how to deal with, so they lash out by throwing laws at the problem.

The thing is, it has been a problem, since long before ebikes came around. Other user groups have been complaining about road cyclists on the MUP for as long as I've been cycling (which is approaching 25 years now).

As you say, a lot more people are riding at those speeds, and are doing it at a much lower experience level.

 

[stompandgo]

Thing is, while manual bikes can reach 30mph or more, so few ordinary riders of manual bikes can maintain a high speed that it's never been a problem that the authorities needed to address. Ebikes make it easy for everybody to go fast, so now it's a problem that they don't know how to deal with, so they lash out by throwing laws at the problem.

For the most part, this is correct. Some fast group rides have been shut down due to bad behavior, like running red lights, swearing at motor vehicles, etc. However, these were on public roads, not rail trails. That is where the threat to e-bikes is largest.

 

[RunForTheHills]

For the most part, this is correct. Some fast group rides have been shut down due to bad behavior, like running red lights, swearing at motor vehicles, etc. However, these were on public roads, not rail trails. That is where the threat to e-bikes is largest.

I don't know if MUPs are always where the problem is happening though. Ride-outs happen on the streets. These are obnoxious group rides where they weave through traffic. The incident in Orange County where a kid on a Sur-ron killed an 81 year old man happened on the streets while the kid was doing wheelies on the bike.

 

[Chargeride]

It seems NJ are signing the law.
Is there any chance of the bill being blocked.

 

[stompandgo]

I don't know if MUPs are always where the problem is happening though. Ride-outs happen on the streets. These are obnoxious group rides where they weave through traffic. The incident in Orange County where a kid on a Sur-ron killed an 81 year old man happened on the streets while the kid was doing wheelies on the bike.

Agree 100%.

 

[EMGX]

Everyone seems to want the government to take action, but nobody wants to pay for it. Which is why the US fed is ~40 trillion in debt, >$110,000 for every man, woman and child including the 40% of US households that pay no federal income tax. It doesn't seem to me that we lack laws to regulate dangerous ebike use, just the will and resources to pay for enforcement. Maybe fees for ebike registration and/or rider permits isn't such a bad idea after all if they are universally applied and enforced and used for intended purposes rather than being diverted - as they often are.

 

[Ken M]

managing agencies have no control over usage

I have ALWAYS said that "usage" is what the states do have jurisdiction over. Some don't understand the difference between defining a compliant product and laws on how it can be used - they are mutually exclusive. The CPSC states what is a compliant ebike to be sold in all 50 states and states decide use of that product (that allows them to define classes so long as none are more stringent than the definition in HR727 - even class 3 is more stringent by requiring a speedometer so many of the OEM bike companies ignore that requirement). In this case a compliant ebike is not considered a motor vehicle and it's implied that a compliant ebike is considered just another configuration of bike.

Have you ever taken the time to assess what the explicit preemptive clause HR727 means? It's important. There was a state that was pushing for all bikes to have lights at the time of sale. It was rejected by the CPSC because it was considered redefining what a compliant bike for sale was. States are permitted to require lights for night time riding as a use requirement/regulation. I don't know how to explain this any better.