Another new TQ motor: hpr40

[Yako]

Yako; thanks for the comments and looking forward to your review on your channel. I am super curious to hear your impression of the TQ HPR40 vs the X-20 for a road bike. I was about to pull the trigger on an Addict eRide 10 but now wondering if I should wait until TQ40 equipped bikes are available in the US (although they will likely be 2X what I can get Addict for right now)

Yeah I had Orbea’s flagship Gain with the X20 a few weeks back. I don’t know if you saw the reviews on my channel but it’s a great bike/motor system, and the Scott is more beautiful Than that Gain! But the scott used to be fitted with the 250Wh battery, if it still is, your range is going to be pretty limited. I know a fair few with the bike, and they are generally rather disappointed…but with ‘55Nm’ available, a 250Wh will obviously get depleted rapidly if that torque is used…
Then there is this TQ. Obviously we need to clarify this techie’s statements, but it is way better than the X20. My first reaction to it was “hub-motors are now dead”. The motor is tiny, easily hidden (important to quite a few roadies) and truly is next to silent. I’ve spent some time trying to record it’s sound for a vid, I’ll probably post that tonight as I don’t want to post the planned first ride vid if somehow this tech is correct.
Neither it’s size or quietness is as important as the way it uses it’s power. I’ve experienced lightweight mid-motors before (take a look at BH’s iAerolight if you want to see THE most beautiful e-bike ;-)) and they are simply better at climbing. The ’40 can use all of it’s power and torque as long as you can keep your cadence in it’s sweet spot. I guess that’s why the granny rings as supplied are either 36t or 34t. The X20 lacks grunt at slow speeds ie on steep climbs. It doesn’t have 55Nm under those circumstances, more like a proportion of it’s actual 23Nm, and the Mahle app I had running as I climbed confirmed that only 99w was being produced at 9km/h. Using the Smart Assist feature I could up this to 169w, but it didn’t feel like much.
My advice would be, wait.

 

[Yako]

Agree with @Calcoaster , this doesn't quite add up. I ride a 38 lb Specialized Vado SL 1 in OFF all the time, just cuz I enjoy it, and I'm not a strong rider.

All other things being equal, even a 10 lb change in bike weight makes little difference in steady riding on the flat. Maybe some factor other than weight was in play. Tire resistance and motor drag come to mind.

I’ve been lucky enough to ride a number of pretty fancy e-bikes, and have been surprised at the difference in speed attainable over the cut-out. I try to put this exact thing in my reviews; though it’s hardly scientific, it’s better than nothing. I have a flat straight road near to my house. I try to make sure the conditions are largely the same (certainly no wind, similar temperatures, me not hungover etc) then ride at a specific heart rate and check the average speed over around 4km. I can’t use a power meter as I can’t afford one and only 2 bikes had one fitted. The differences between all of the e-road bikes weren’t great, only 4km/h in fact, but they seemed to fit to bike weight better than tyre width, aero frame etc. The one thing I have definately found is that the Mahle X35 and X20 have virtually no motor drag, and I mean totally insignificant as soon as the wheels start turning with the mass of bike and rider providing momentum, and the mid-motors, well, they obviously can’t affect the free movement of the hubs, but I can’t detect any discernible resistance within the motor to my pedalling…

 

[Yako]

I’ve never ridden an X-20. I know the TQ site has a long article about their “tonality” study of their motor. They discussed the important difference between overall db sound pressure measurement vs the measurement at different frequencies showing how the same sound pressure will be loud and annoying at one but quiet and mostly unnoticeable at another. They focused their efforts on tuning the frequencies emitted by the motor to the ones most ears aren’t as sensitive to. I found my Creo noise to be a constant irritation but I have only heard my TQ when I specifically tried to under the worst conditions for motor noise: low speed, high cadence, quiet street with no wind. Even then what I heard sounded like tire noise. I had to cycle the assist on and off to be sure it was the motor and not the tires. On a normal road ride i never hear it.

100% agree. I’ve hung the Canyon in a tree at head height so I record the noise it makes. Not sure you’d hear it at 10ft over the chain/sprocket sounds. Add tyre noise to that and, well.

 

[stompandgo]

I’ve been lucky enough to ride a number of pretty fancy e-bikes, and have been surprised at the difference in speed attainable over the cut-out. I try to put this exact thing in my reviews; though it’s hardly scientific, it’s better than nothing. I have a flat straight road near to my house. I try to make sure the conditions are largely the same (certainly no wind, similar temperatures, me not hungover etc) then ride at a specific heart rate and check the average speed over around 4km. I can’t use a power meter as I can’t afford one and only 2 bikes had one fitted. The differences between all of the e-road bikes weren’t great, only 4km/h in fact, but they seemed to fit to bike weight better than tyre width, aero frame etc. T

Interesting. My current bike weighs over 55 pounds. The assistance starts tapering at 26.5mph, is minimal at 27mph, and is all done at 28mph. I have only been able to get it up to 29.5mph on the flat. I just can't hit 30mph.

 

[Chazmo]

My first reaction to it was “hub-motors are now dead”

Hehehe, Yako… There’s very little hub motor love expressed here, especially by the folks who own fancy bikes and are looking for light weight. But, there is a minority of us that adore our hub drives… In my case, I think it’s a perfect match for my heavy fatty. And, as far as noise is concerned, yeah a lot of it is subjective of course. But, my (Bafang) rear hub drive is virtually silent. Slight hum which increases in intensity under load, but it’s really super quiet.

Anyway, I hope you can help these people get their story straight with the TQ motor. I think it’s ridiculous and semi-impossible that an established motor company would make a DU that can’t run unimpeded without power. Especially for a lightweight mid-drive which will be used for applications where the riders will be inclined to turn power off and will expect the bike to be rideable without assist at all.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Yako]

Hehehe, Yako… There’s very little hub motor love expressed here, especially by the folks who own fancy bikes and are looking for light weight. But, there is a minority of us that adore our hub drives… In my case, I think it’s a perfect match for my heavy fatty. And, as far as noise is concerned, yeah a lot of it is subjective of course. But, my (Bafang) rear hub drive is virtually silent. Slight hum which increases in intensity under load, but it’s really super quiet.

Anyway, I hope you can help these people get their story straight with the TQ motor. I think it’s ridiculous and semi-impossible that an established motor company would make a DU that can’t run unimpeded without power. Especially for a lightweight mid-drive which will be used for applications where the riders will be inclined to turn power off and will expect the bike to be rideable without assist at all.

Just my $0.02.

My own bike has a hub motor, and I love the help it has given me these last years…but I am human and my head is getting turned by these fresh, young mid models!
Yeah, it just has to be nonsense. The TQ motor is specifically designed to be run off as much as on. Think that techie might be in for some retraining!
The one thing I’m trying to review is ANY Bafang motor! I started with a conversion kit, and these fancy systems being mostly unserviceable and crazily expensive is getting to me! I’d like it to be in a frame from a mainstream manufacturer, and there are a few out there, but they’re ignoring me.

 

[apctjb]

Yeah I had Orbea’s flagship Gain with the X20 a few weeks back. I don’t know if you saw the reviews on my channel but it’s a great bike/motor system, and the Scott is more beautiful Than that Gain! But the scott used to be fitted with the 250Wh battery, if it still is, your range is going to be pretty limited. I know a fair few with the bike, and they are generally rather disappointed…but with ‘55Nm’ available, a 250Wh will obviously get depleted rapidly if that torque is used…
Then there is this TQ. Obviously we need to clarify this techie’s statements, but it is way better than the X20. My first reaction to it was “hub-motors are now dead”. The motor is tiny, easily hidden (important to quite a few roadies) and truly is next to silent. I’ve spent some time trying to record it’s sound for a vid, I’ll probably post that tonight as I don’t want to post the planned first ride vid if somehow this tech is correct.
Neither it’s size or quietness is as important as the way it uses it’s power. I’ve experienced lightweight mid-motors before (take a look at BH’s iAerolight if you want to see THE most beautiful e-bike ;-)) and they are simply better at climbing. The ’40 can use all of it’s power and torque as long as you can keep your cadence in it’s sweet spot. I guess that’s why the granny rings as supplied are either 36t or 34t. The X20 lacks grunt at slow speeds ie on steep climbs. It doesn’t have 55Nm under those circumstances, more like a proportion of it’s actual 23Nm, and the Mahle app I had running as I climbed confirmed that only 99w was being produced at 9km/h. Using the Smart Assist feature I could up this to 169w, but it didn’t feel like much.
My advice would be, wait.

Yes it was your reviews of the Gain/ X20 that convinced me (almost) to pull the trigger on the Addict eRide. The lingering concern was battery range (236whr for the Addict) and hill climbing assist. Its mountainous where I live and 10+miles climbs of 6-8%+ are common . I can still crank up these rides, albeit slower each passing year (like 4-6 mph). That's fine except when riding with younger friends (and my wife) who patiently wait at the top with a hint of pity in their eyes..

Thanks for advice, much appreciated! Hopefully the Canyon (and I heard a rumor Scott will be releasing a TQ40 road bike soon) are available in the US before too long.

 

[Calcoaster]

IMPORTANT UPDATE -
i just received an email from a senior tech at TQ apologizing for the incorrect information being passed by their customer service rep. He told me the hpr40 was designed to be ridden with no assistance and will not be damaged by doing so. He covered all the cases: riding above assist cutoff, turning assist off, etc, and confirmed that they expect all of those situations will occur and they designed the motor to be ridden safely with no assistance.

He did say the Canyon should be ridden with the bike powered up for the sake of the lights and deraileur, but the motor assistance can be off.

Im looking forward to Yako’s reviews and I’ll be watching his YouTube channel for them.

 

[stompandgo]

I'm glad that sh*& show is over.

 

[TRW]

Hopefully this is will be more enjoyable after that fiasco

 

[Calcoaster]

Hopefully this is will be more enjoyable after that fiasco

Very informative and expertly done! Thanks for your efforts.

 

[stompandgo]

I'm a retired engineer, and I had to watch those videos twice to figure out how it all works. It is an absolutely ingenious design that relies heavily on precision machining. I bet that any grit or dirt inside would wreck it in no time.

 

[apctjb]

In Yako's recent review , he mentioned that in order to make the TQ40 narrow enough to fit a standard bottom bracket housing, that TQ replaced one of the mechanical clutches with a software clutch. That also sounds ingenious although I am not sure how that actually works?

 

[mschwett]

... The X20 lacks grunt at slow speeds ie on steep climbs. It doesn’t have 55Nm under those circumstances, more like a proportion of it’s actual 23Nm, and the Mahle app I had running as I climbed confirmed that only 99w was being produced at 9km/h. Using the Smart Assist feature I could up this to 169w, but it didn’t feel like much.
My advice would be, wait.

this is true due to the slow rotational speed of the wheel at those low speeds; the actual 23nm of torque x 45rpm (4mph) gives you only half the power than 90rpm does at 8mph. i've seen somewhat higher numbers than you reference though - output power of around 100w at 4mph and 150w at 6mph. full power of 200w (i believe the mahle app is indicating output power, not input power) at around 8mph. i looked at this fairly closely just now as i slowly climbed the 7-14% grades leading home. i wasn't ghost pedaling but also not pedaling hard.

the above values also happen to come fairly close to the math watts = (torque*rpm)/9.55

on 32mm 700c tires, the relationship between mph and rpm is 12.5rpm/mph, so you could solve the above equation for the 22nm of actual torque of the x20 to simply w = 28.8 x mph as a theoretical maximum. we don't know how much of the maximum 22nm of torque the x20 produces at any given speed, but based on observation i think we can assume the motor puts of out the full 22nm at 4-8mph and it starts to drop after that, otherwise it would be far exceeding 200w by just 10mph!

 

[apctjb]

output power of around 100w at 4mph and 150w at 6mph. full power of 200w (i believe the mahle app is indicating output power, not input power) at around 8mph. i looked at this fairly closely just now as i slowly climbed the 7-14% grades leading home. i wasn't ghost pedaling but also not pedaling hard.

Very interesting. So in practice does this mean that if you have speed (>8mph) when approaching a steep grade (10% grade) and the rider has the ability to output 150W that the Mahle will be able to match that 150w to provide the ~300W required to maintain the speed up the grade?

 

[mschwett]

Very interesting. So in practice does this mean that if you have speed (>8mph) when approaching a steep grade (10% grade) and the rider has the ability to output 150W that the Mahle will be able to match that 150w to provide the ~300W required to maintain the speed up the grade?

yes, and your math is right that it takes 300w to go up a 10% grade (200lb total) at 8mph. if your speed drops down to 4 or 5, there’s no way to get it back up other than increasing rider power to 225+ w, the X20 isn’t strong enough for that.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Hopefully this is will be more enjoyable after that fiasco

Very clever to use a strain wave (aka harmonic) drive to reduce motor shaft speed to crank speed in the smallest possible volume. Don't know about the wear issue raised by @stompandgo , but strain wave drives have other advantages in ebike applications — including high torque capacity.

The Specialized 1.1 SL motor above appears to do this with a more traditional spur gear transmission that takes up a good bit more room.

 

[mschwett]

Very clever to use a strain wave (aka harmonic) drive to reduce motor shaft speed to crank speed in the smallest possible volume. Don't know about the wear issue raised by @stompandgo , but strain wave drives have other advantages in ebike applications — including high torque capacity.

The Specialized 1.1 SL motor above appears to do this with a more traditional spur gear transmission that takes up a good bit more room.

yes, the harmonic pin ring was TQ's big innovation, announced a few years ago. very cool to see it in products and the net result, a smaller, lighter motor!

 

[apctjb]

yes, and your math is right that it takes 300w to go up a 10% grade (200lb total) at 8mph. if your speed drops down to 4 or 5, there’s no way to get it back up other than increasing rider power to 225+ w, the X20 isn’t strong enough for that.

Thanks, very helpful. I am able to grind up 10% grades at 5mph which implies I am capable of putting out~200W. So sounds like with a X-20 bike like the Addict eRide I should be able to manage 10% grades no problem as long as I maintain some speed. That clears up a concern I had about getting a hub drive vs mid drive.

 

[mschwett]

Thanks, very helpful. I am able to grind up 10% grades at 5mph which implies I am capable of putting out~200W. So sounds like with a X-20 bike like the Addict eRide I should be able to manage 10% grades no problem as long as I maintain some speed. That clears up a concern I had about getting a hub drive vs mid drive.

yes, and even 150w of assist is really quite a lot on a road bike, that's the difference between a spirited amateur and a pro in a lot of cases. you won't go "fast" up a hill, but you'll go a lot faster than almost any human powered bike. beware though, with the small internal battery that sort of thing will drop the range very low. of course it's fairly rare to find hills that just keep going up at 10% for miles and miles, but if that's your jam....

an example climb here in san francisco might be mt diablo. to the top is around 10 miles and 3,200 feet of climbing, more or less without breaks, call it 6% the whole way. 150w from the bike and 150w from the rider would have you going 10mph the whole way (at which point you'd need to not be at 100% power on the x20, or you'd be drawing more than 150w), so it would take an hour and you'd use around 180wh of battery, which is 75% or so! of course you'd use none coming down, so the range in that scenario is around 25 miles.

i'd shoot for more like 75w from the bike and 150w from the rider and go 8mph. now it takes 1.25 hours, but you'll only use 120wh or so, and the climb only eats half the battery. now you've got enough juice to do a 40+ mile ride, depending on how much you use the battery on the flats. at 225w you're still going faster than almost anyone climbing on a road bike!

the problem with these bikes comes if the rider can't do 100-200w (the more the better), is very heavy, and/or the climbs get above 10% for any period of time. my last block on the way home is 14.5% and i really crawl up it on the addict if not feeling well. the HPR40 bikes would eat those climbs up, i'm sure, assuming gearing close to 1:1.