Zen Samurai Diamond

[Ebiker33]

Understandable. Bosch does provide throttle on their scooter motor system and they do make 1500W motors.
The decision of not including the throttle is made consciously by their team. They want their E-bike systems to be recognized as "bicycle enhancers" and pedaling will always be an integral part of this.



Let me share a bicycle designer point of view.
The best designs in most electronics don't go by the metric of power alone. BOSE makes some of the best noise canceling and premium speakers/ headphones. They don't mention anything about power to market their products. You will see other manufacturers mentioning 250W RMS power or 1000W etc. What really matters at the end of the day is how pleasant the speaker sounds to human ear.
Bose delivers on that. Spec by spec, Apple products have lower spec compared to their PC or Android counterparts but in many aspects, Apple products perform better than Android/PC devices.
Some folks think Apple or Bose products are highly over-priced, yet Apple and Bose dominate their market segments and people appreciate those products.

Similarly, just because one motor has 1000W or 130 Nm doesn't mean much. Pedal assist system, efficiency, durability are more important.

Not everyone needs 750W+ and for most folks 350W-500W would be sufficient. I have seen a lot of folks here who start with 750W motor and in a year, end up using only level 1 pedal assist.
Another unfortunate situation is that an average american is significantly overweight compared to many other countries where cycling is common (Netherlands, Germany etc.)

In theory, a 48V system would be better but 36V system is performing just fine. Bosch/Shimano/Yamaha have the technology to create all kinds of motors but they have focused on providing higher quality motors and service. They have consciously made a decision to keep away from the higher power market segment. They are not worried about losing market share to Radpower in the US or some other brand that sells bikes for $1500. There will always be decent market for E-bikes that have very refined pedal assist and have excellent reliability, irrespective of the brand/company.

You make some good points, and I know exactly what you mean as I see the same thing in the industry I am in, cordless power tools.
Different vendors are trying different systems and they all seems to be working well when they are at the top end of their various lines.

But when 750 Watts struggles to move you up on 15% grade and you can't even get to the legal limit of 32Km, you just know you need more power.
It's true not everybody needs that, but for those of us EBiking in mountainous regions, we would like it.
Your in Canada you should take a trip to Alberta or BC and test what you have out in real world applications.
Another Canadian developer Sam over at DOST developed Surface604 Ebikes then went out on his own and built DOST, he tested them in the Whistler area, they needed 120nm on the motor to look after those challenges.

I would just say to you don't lose sight of the market you are actually building for; North America not Europe, and yes we are heavier on average over here, so we do need more power than the Europeans.
I wish you to be successful just like all the other Canadian Ebike companies that have recently started out in the last few years, it's great for our economy

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I would just say to you don't lose sight of the market you are actually building for; North America not Europe, and yes we are heavier on average over here, so we do need more power than the Europeans.

Thanks for the comment. that is why we have the other line with powerful hub motor which has throttle and 45kmph limit.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I've found the Bosch Gen 4 motor on my Cannondale Topstone Lefty 3 to have more than enough power for climbing up the steeper hills where I live. There's a steep hill that's around a kilometre long that I usually avoid like the plague. When I've ridden up it on my 17.5 pound road bike I struggled to maintain 8 mph. The other day I went up that hill, with my Lefty, and was able to maintain a speed of 13mph, and that was only in the Tour mode.
What I really, really want is for the power not to cut off at 20mph, or in my case just under 19mph.

 

[drewberz]

@Ravi Kempaiah ​

I really like what you are doing, top notch components all the way, I would be willing to sacrifice power for less noise, but not the throttle, for me that is 75% of the joy of an Ebike.
Bosch needs to address the needs of it's non-European customers.
It's a deal breaker for me beyond price and quality, and I know I am not the only one.

Another point I know most people might not notice, is this, Bosch is still on the 36V system, that is 2 generations behind for power output compared to the newest 52V systems that are now being sold.
In some ways Bosch is ahead of others, and in other ways they are lagging behind, they need a North American division specifically building for this market, America and Canada are exploding with Ebike companies and consumers right now and it is very different from the European market.

48V is considered 'safe', so I doubt you would see anything greater from a big manufacturer. N.A. market is still dwarfed by Europe and certainly China, so I also doubt they would cater to N.A. desires-which is something I don't think we are used to.

 

[Ebiker33]

48V is considered 'safe', so I doubt you would see anything greater from a big manufacturer. N.A. market is still dwarfed by Europe and certainly China, so I also doubt they would cater to N.A. desires-which is something I don't think we are used to.

I can tell you from years in industry dealing many different products, companies that can control the ability to cater to their local demographics are always the most successful, large corporations that roll out the cookie cutter method thinking that one size fits all, can fail in certain markets.
Target failing in Canada is an example.
The national companies I have worked for always had the most successful stores where the national buyers lived, why, they understood that market better than anybody else because they actually lived in it. Conversely when the buyers lived on the other side of the country we started to notice a real failure to really focus on the local demographic and they had products that nobody wanted.

And the demographic in North America wants certain features on their Ebikes, if the big players won't fill it, we have lots of smaller companies that will and are, many are featured on EBR.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

companies that can control the ability to cater to their local demographics are always the most successful, large corporations that roll out the cookie cutter method thinking that one size fits all, can fail in certain markets.

If we go by that logic Trek, Giant and Specialized should fail to cater to the American market and fold their E-bike division in a few years.
Certainly they are doing well. It will be interesting to see how things pan out. We have seen a lot of companies come and go in this space.
The US market is very different and very price sensitive. Having said that, there will always be a decent market for well designed and supported products. If that is not the case, Trek and Specialized wouldn't invest in the kind of products they are producing right now. Specialized R&D investment in the SL lineup clocks in at several million $$. So, the market is big enough for varied product types.
We will also have a well equipped hub motor line up that will retail for $1990.

 

[Ebiker33]

If we go by that logic Trek, Giant and Specialized should fail to cater to the American market and fold their E-bike division in a few years.
Certainly they are doing well. It will be interesting to see how things pan out. We have seen a lot of companies come and go in this space.
The US market is very different and very price sensitive. Having said that, there will always be a decent market for well designed and supported products. If that is not the case, Trek and Specialized wouldn't invest in the kind of products they are producing right now. Specialized R&D investment in the SL lineup clocks in at several million $$. So, the market is big enough for varied product types.
We will also have a well equipped hub motor line up that will retail for $1990.

Ebikes are relatively new, I would say the last 5 years has seen them go more mainstream, when you think that both Sondors and Rad Power both started only in 2015 and how much they have grown since then, the industry is just getting off the ground, the big three you mentioned were already making analog bikes so they had a huge advantage and they would have built loyal customers that were transitioning. Give it 10 years and people will be much more selective once they are buying their second Ebike for 5K, and they are going to know exactly what they want and why they want it. The great thing about this, is that it gives the smaller players time to build their brands and figure out what their customers want and need, in a decade the market will be so saturated with brands and inventory only the best will survive, but for now, it is a time for growth, and R & D, giving start up companies like yours the perfect time to break out and shine among a crowded field.

 

[FlatSix911]

Ebikes are relatively new, I would say the last 5 years has seen them go more mainstream, when you think that both Sondors and Rad Power both started only in 2015 and how much they have grown since then, the industry is just getting off the ground, the big three you mentioned were already making analog bikes so they had a huge advantage and they would have built loyal customers that were transitioning.

Give it 10 years and people will be much more selective once they are buying their second Ebike for 5K, and they are going to know exactly what they want and why they want it. The great thing about this, is that it gives the smaller players time to build their brands and figure out what their customers want and need, in a decade the market will be so saturated with brands and inventory only the best will survive, but for now, it is a time for growth, and R & D, giving start up companies like yours the perfect time to break out and shine among a crowded field.

This.

 

[bob armani]

I will look forward to seeing you with a Canyon or BMC bike
but I know you will always wait for close out prices from Lenny's store
I hope you are enjoying the BH jet and Haibike that you got from Lenny's. Here is a helpful tip for you: Lenny just bought 100+ BMC bikes and you will be able to get one at a good price this Christmas

Ravi-You are spot on! Kinda funny you mention all this. I took a backseat on my BH Jet since having the FS 10.0 Haibike. The bike is so kick a$$!!
Finally got the Jet out the entire month of Sept this year moving forward. An entirely different riding experience, however I think having both mid-drive and rear hub driven bikes is key to enjoying both riding experiences. They have their place IMO. You are correct, the next move would be a lightweight commuter like the BMC. I will keep a watchful eye at Lenny's site in the next coming months.
BTW- I have always enjoyed your taste in E-bikes. I remember when you alerted me to the Trek Police Bike. I was sold hands down, however, at that time, it became unavailable to the general public. Well, needless to say, Lenny fixed that problem for me during his Christmas sale. Thanks and Cheers!

 

[Ebiker33]

After hearing the Bosch motor, on this Trek I am not convinced on the Bosch motor noise, and neither was Court when he tested it, from the YouTube comments, I am not the only one.

Is is what is, I guess. But at 6K I just expect more.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

After hearing the Bosch motor, on this Trek

I noticed that too. Trek also has other models (Allant 7,8,9) and Rail models with the Gen 4 system which are quieter. It depends on the frame material, any metallic casings around the motor. In fact, Electric Mountain Bike Network did a decent noise test on a few different motor systems and the Bosch Gen 4 was quieter than Shimano E8000 motor. Check this out.

 

[Mulezen]

I’ve found on my Trek Allant 9.9s the motor is (once broken in) much quieter than than the previous generation on my Super Commuter 7

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I’ve found on my Trek Allant 9.9s the motor is (once broken in) much quieter than than the previous generation on my Super Commuter 7

That's what I heard from the Bosch engineering manager as well. About 200 miles in, the motor should get quieter and it is indeed quieter than the Gen 2 system.
If you use the Gates drive system along with it, it gets even more quieter.

 

[linklemming]

After hearing the Bosch motor, on this Trek I am not convinced on the Bosch motor noise, and neither was Court when he tested it, from the YouTube comments, I am not the only one.

Is is what is, I guess. But at 6K I just expect more.

I have found listening to the motor sounds in videos pretty much useless. Nobody is using the same recording devices and/or coming up with some sort of calibration to have identical results. There is also the issue of microphone placement.

In addition, all motors in videos sound much louder than they do in person. Im pretty sure Court mentioned that in a video awhile back being due to frame vibration(due to how its mounted...which also isnt standardized)

Im VERY picky on motor noise and as such favor Brose drives (I have 2). Its much quieter than what I hear in videos and usually fades into the background noise.

Rode a shimano e8000 for a few weeks and it was obnoxious to me and in fact I had many hikers comment on it being an ebike and even yelled at by some roadies for having an ebike which has never happened on the Brose bikes. On the plus side I always knew when it was working and how hard

The older Bosch I rode was quieter than the e8000, overall I just didnt like its feel and hated the small chainring.

The Yamaha seemed quieter still and a drive I would consider.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Some OEM's offer protective covering over the motor (like Trek) and Some don't (like R&M).
We decided to offer this motor protective shell as well. We think it will be very useful when riding on gravel trails.

 

[FlatSix911]

Some OEM's offer protective covering over the motor (like Trek) and Some don't (like R&M).
We decided to offer this motor protective shell as well. We think it will be very useful when riding on gravel trails.

View attachment 69341

Looks like a great idea... my Yamaha motors also come with a protective cover.

 

[vincent]

really like that!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have to learn what the "e-bike motor noise" stands for yet...

 

[PDB415]

How is the bike progressing? I saw the frames which looked great. Have they been treated and painted yet? It would be great to see a bike that has been built out. These things are going to rock

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Have they been treated and painted yet? It would be great to see a bike that has been built out.

Because we plan on offering lifetime warranty on frames, they will be tested to the highest standards.
You will hear the news as soon as the painting is completed