Zen Samurai Diamond

[Marrduk24]

@PDB415 fantastic feedback.

climbing a technical trail is certainly not my use case. I am interested in E14 primarily because I think in start-stop NYC it could be a game changer. So often I find that I have to stop abruptly at a light (Eg someone jumped in front of me) and I didn’t have the opportunity to downshift.

If I understood the limitation, here is the scenario (this I believe applies not just to Rohloff but all hub gears)
- one is going up a steep hill and doesn’t have enough momentum
- one is pressing hard on the pedal just to be able to crawl
- if in that situation if you try and downshift, you won’t be able to because there is pressure on the pedal
- so only way to let the pressure off the pedal would be to either dismount or as you described, do a “S” turn

Does that sound right?

while not an ebike, I have alifine hub drive on my non electric bike and I don’t recall this. But then my use case is very different.

 

[PDB415]

One more thing to add here. A few people have reached out to me regarding the Zen Diamond and I will reiterate what I have been saying privately. This is a very stable and smooth bike. I do most of my riding in an urban environment and there are some streets where my ability to get the Zen Diamond up to speed is a matter of life and death. Anyone who bikes in San Francisco or NYC (or any large American city) knows what I am talking about. There are parts of the city where I have walked my bike up a hill on the sidewalk because I had no hope of getting up to speed and being safe. The Diamond does not have that problem.
There is a learning curve on the Rohloff hub, but there is a learning curve on everything.

When I first started riding the Diamond I kept it in the lowest assist mode until I was more comfortable. There are four assist levels and I had to learn to use them as appropriate which I am still dialing in. Overall the Zen Diamond compares very favorably to an $11k offering from a larger company.

The bike is a blast to ride and I highly recommend it to any city rider or commuter.

@PDB415 fantastic feedback.

climbing a technical trail is certainly not my use case. I am interested in E14 primarily because I think in start-stop NYC it could be a game changer. So often I find that I have to stop abruptly at a light (Eg someone jumped in front of me) and I didn’t have the opportunity to downshift.

If I understood the limitation, here is the scenario (this I believe applies not just to Rohloff but all hub gears)
- one is going up a steep hill and doesn’t have enough momentum
- one is pressing hard on the pedal just to be able to crawl
- if in that situation if you try and downshift, you won’t be able to because there is pressure on the pedal
- so only way to let the pressure off the pedal would be to either dismount or as you described, do a “S” turn

Does that sound right?

while not an ebike, I have alifine hub drive on my non electric bike and I don’t recall this. But then my use case is very different.

That sounds about right. Based on how the rohloff shifts it really does not like to shift under torque.
My last road bike had a lower end Shimano gear set and I couldn’t shift it under torque either (without grinding) so I don’t think it’s 100% fair to single out rohloff for an issue that is uniform across the industry. Even in a car you have to engage the clutch which disengages the torque coming from the car’s engine. Imagine being in a heavy vehicle in fifth gear and trying to accelerate from a stop going uphill then trying to put it in third while doing half a mile an hour. If you were in an older car you are going to back in to the car behind you due to gravity if you don’t press the brake. You only have two feet so now there is no gas. This is not rohloff’s fault either.
I go out with coworkers who are much better and stronger mountain bike riders. On some of the terrain I end up pushing my mountain bike up the last third of the trail. In every case it is user error. I was in the wrong gear or I waited too long to shift or I “ran out of gas”. Either way it was not my hub’s fault.
In the case of the review you posted that might be a case of a specialized mountain bike rider making some new different technology look bad. He is a skilled enough rider that he can take any system and shred it to pieces. He could make a Specialized eBike look bad or a high end Shimano look bad. He could make me look terrible trying to keep up with him.

None of this means the Rohloff is inferior or flawed. It means that person with his use case found it wanting. in your case, like mine, you might be flying down the street and have to emergency brake due to a car driver not seeing you, then the light turns red. With the E14 the hub waits a second or three and shifts to 5th gear and you are ready to go when the light changes. It does all of this with no input from you.
If you wanted to get in to hard core mountain biking I guarantee with practice you could get a rohloff eBike and tear the mountain to pieces. There is a small learning curve but not a hard one.
When you do your test ride please come back and let us know what you liked and disliked. Best of luck.

 

[Marrduk24]

n your case, like mine, you might be flying down the street and have to emergency brake due to a car driver not seeing you, then the light turns red. With the E14 the hub waits a second or three and shifts to 5th gear and you are ready to go when the light changes. It does all of this with no input from you.
If you wanted to get in to hard core mountain biking I guarantee with practice you could get a rohloff eBike and tear the mountain to pieces. There is a small learning curve but not a hard one.
When you do your test ride please come back and let us know what you liked and disliked. Best of luck.

Agree. And this is the thing that gets me excited.

Your car analogy is a really interesting & relevant one. I learnt driving on a 2000 lbs/ 50 bhp/ 1100 cc stick shift car. If you ever lost momentum on a steep hill, sometimes it got pretty dangerous. You actually had to let the car roll back to somewhat of a flat spot, then start the car, press brake hard with your right foot while keeping clutch pressed with your left, do a quick dance between brake and accelerator with your right foot until the car got going

 

[Marrduk24]

Ravi,
Every time I speak to you, I learn something new and after every conversation I realize how much thought has gone into the design decisions. Not just the big decisions (Eg motor, battery, drivetrain) but small decisions as well (e.g stem).
Whenever you think the design is finalized, it would be great to both see the final component list as well as hear some sort of narrative around what decisions did you make and why. Maybe you could do a video review

 

[Johnny]

@Ravi Kempaiah

You brought a very nice high quality Rohloff/mid drive combo at a very good price point and weight. Imo Rohloff + belt makes these bikes very versatile especially for harsher climates. They are almost maintenance free.

I am very happy to see that with this model , you are getting the attention you deserve.

As a side note, rohloff may not be the best choice for technical climbs or serious mtb. However I don't think people are buying this system for that purpose anyways. Right now I don't think there is a "one does it all" system out there.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Early adopters and evangelists continue to support the Zen venture and we were fortunate enough to meet with another gentleman who picked up his personal Samurai and he was very impressed by the ride quality.
Thanks to Paul and everyone on the team for making this happen.

 

[Marrduk24]

Early adopters and evangelists continue to support the Zen venture and we were fortunate enough to meet with another gentleman who picked up his personal Samurai and he was very impressed by the ride quality.
Thanks to Paul and everyone on the team for making this happen.

View attachment 84427

Looks great.

 

[Achterbahn]

I do most of my riding in an urban environment and there are some streets where my ability to get the Zen Diamond up to speed is a matter of life and death. Anyone who bikes in San Francisco or NYC (or any large American city) knows what I am talking about. There are parts of the city where I have walked my bike up a hill on the sidewalk because I had no hope of getting up to speed and being safe.

The number of people who throw themselves in the middle of the bike line on Market drives me crazy. Quick reaction is essential.

I have an IGH + Gates belt and still haven't gotten fully accustomed to doing the most optimal shifting. Because my IGH is limited (Shimano 5 speed), any loss of momentum is critical. There are still hills where I prefer to walk my bike. I'd love to one day try a rohloff equipped bike in the hills of SF

 

[PDB415]

The number of people who throw themselves in the middle of the bike line on Market drives me crazy. Quick reaction is essential.

I have an IGH + Gates belt and still haven't gotten fully accustomed to doing the most optimal shifting. Because my IGH is limited (Shimano 5 speed), any loss of momentum is critical. There are still hills where I prefer to walk my bike. I'd love to one day try a rohloff equipped bike in the hills of SF

The Rohloff's huge gear spread makes short work of most hills. I would say that once you lose momentum up a steep hill on a heavy bike you are hosed and the only surefire way out would be a throttle button.

 

[Achterbahn]

The Rohloff's huge gear spread makes short work of most hills. I would say that once you lose momentum up a steep hill on a heavy bike you are hosed and the only surefire way out would be a throttle button.

One of these days I'll cross the bridge and ride to Sausalito (with a full battery of course!) to see how the Current handles it.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

After our initial run, based on feedback from Paul, me, and expert riders such as yourself, we made some subtle changes to the frame that enhances the overall quality.
The challenge of making bikes in the middle of the pandemic is that factories are overloaded with orders and making small quantities of bikes for testing means the factories have to unload their tooling and equip a few stations with new tools that are specific for just this frame. This is a tremendous challenge for them because other manufacturers are willing to pay top dollar to keep their bikes in continuous production.

We will have very limited bikes this year but about 300 frames are arriving by the beginning of 2022. All these frames are belt compatible, dual battery, Bosch Gen 4 frames!

 

[lipjim]

After our initial run, based on feedback from Paul, me, and expert riders such as yourself, we made some subtle changes to the frame that enhances the overall quality.
The challenge of making bikes in the middle of the pandemic is that factories are overloaded with orders and making small quantities of bikes for testing means the factories have to unload their tooling and equip a few stations with new tools that are specific for just this frame. This is a tremendous challenge for them because other manufacturers are willing to pay top dollar to keep their bikes in continuous production.

We will have very limited bikes this year but about 300 frames are arriving by the beginning of 2022. All these frames are belt compatible, dual battery, Bosch Gen 4 frames!

Let me know when we can order!

 

[PDB415]

After our initial run, based on feedback from Paul, me, and expert riders such as yourself, we made some subtle changes to the frame that enhances the overall quality.
The challenge of making bikes in the middle of the pandemic is that factories are overloaded with orders and making small quantities of bikes for testing means the factories have to unload their tooling and equip a few stations with new tools that are specific for just this frame. This is a tremendous challenge for them because other manufacturers are willing to pay top dollar to keep their bikes in continuous production.

We will have very limited bikes this year but about 300 frames are arriving by the beginning of 2022. All these frames are belt compatible, dual battery, Bosch Gen 4 frames!

Keep us informed. I would love to see how it rides. Since I have bought the Diamond I have transferred closer to home and now ride every day. The bike has been absolutely great.
when do you think you will have one of the new frames in your shop?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@lipjim and @PDB415 ,

Many thanks for your support. The last 12 months were tough.
Now, I am actually full-time involved in scaling up Zen E-bikes and our team is dedicated to bringing high-quality bikes to the market.
Moving forward, you will see an updated website, lots of activity, and new innovation in this space.

 

[NatPedaler]

@lipjim and @PDB415 ,

Many thanks for your support. The last 12 months were tough.
Now, I am actually full-time involved in scaling up Zen E-bikes and our team is dedicated to bringing high-quality bikes to the market.
Moving forward, you will see an updated website, lots of activity, and new innovation in this space.

Ravi, this is exciting news and thanks for the heads up.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thanks, Guys!
As soon as the travel to Asis eased up, I am spending a few weeks visiting China and Taiwan. Right now, because of the Delta variant, there are still some restrictions.
You will see first-hand reports from Asia with pictures and videos.
Please let me know if you would be interested in seeing the factory tour of the following suppliers. It will take some time to arrange the logistics to travel to all these suppliers but if you guys are keen on any suppliers, we can prioritize that.

1. Bafang
2. Tektro
3. King Meter
4. Shimano
5. Rockshox/ Sram
6. Fox
7. Manitou
8. Kenda
9. Dengfu
10. Tektro
11. Ergon
12. A bunch of battery makers in China that supply batteries to a whole host of E-bike companies etc.

 

[Explorer-1]

Dengfu factory tour!

 

[Explorer-1]

Also see if you can find a battery supplier with the latest LiFePO high density variety at least the equivalent of the typical LiCoO cell with capacity and interest in making good e-bike batteries.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Dengfu factory tour!

Well Noted.

Also see if you can find a battery supplier with the latest LiFePO high density variety at least the equivalent of the typical LiCoO cell with capacity and interest in making good e-bike batteries.

There are LFP packs that are comparable in energy density to NMC packs but they can only work in an EV (large scale) because they use a technology called cell-to-pack.
That means the battery is an integral part of the car structure. It is hard to replicate that kind of for an E-bike because the size is smaller.

 

[jhw1009]

I found this forum recently and from don't know anything about the Zen Samurai Diamond to almost sold. I am a occasional bike rider for recreation and exercise. I own a full suspension ebike purchased online from China and the ride and quality are so-so. I'm now looking for a quality ebike with belt drive and IGH and Zen Samurai seems to fit the bill. I love reading Ravi's quick responses with a lot of design details and quality goals. Good job Ravi. Since the Zen website is not working/or under development, I do have a few questions for Ravi:
1. Does Zen Samurai come with both diamond frame and step through models?
2. Your demo model has Rohloff e-14 hub, do you offer the Enviolo Automatiq hub gear? I have no experience on either one but Enviolo is quite popular and a lot less expensive.
3. I enjoy the comfort/upright ride. Do you offer the cruiser like handlebar?
4. I can wait a few months for pre-order but an estimated time is appreciated.

Thanks, James