As an engineer I don't care about infomercials or not, which is selling more or not. You ride them, test them and make your own mind. And I have tested enough of them from Bafang, Bosch, Brose, Shimano, Yamaha to know that Yamaha makes the better, quieter, smoother and more life like e-bike to a bike. Everything else is irrelevant. Test them yourself and make your own mind.
Yamaha EBike with most natural assist and regular bike feel
dan silver
Member
As an engineer, you should know that e-bikes have no "life" since they are mechanical and inorganic. Therefore they cannot be more or less "lifelike."
Actually, you don't have to be an engineer to know that ebikes are inorganic and have no life.
"As an engineer," you should also know yamaha motors are underpowered compared to their competition:
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
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This graph is not a correct representation. There is no backing to all the figures here. Nobody knows who created that chart and what data they have to back it up.
Anyone who has ridden Brose or Yamaha would prefer its smooth assistance over Shimano or Bosch and they are also lot more powerful than what this graph alludes.
Yamaha Pw-X motor is amazing. More torque than Bosch CX, instant engagement and 120rpm support.
In a real world testing, Brose motor was putting out more than 600 watts... the graph shows just half of it.
dan silver
Member
False. I have ridden brose, bosch and shimano, but not yamaha. In particular, I rode a specialized turbo levo 2018. I definitely prefer bosch and shimano compared to brose.
As long as it's not excessive, I don't mind a little bit of motor noise. I find it to adds to the enjoyment and it's an audible indicator of the level of assist. It makes for a distinct experience compared to a standard bicycle. It's not like the blaring, disgusting smelling exhaust of a motorcycle. It's far more subtle than that.
The specialized bike without question was the quietest and without question the least powerful. Even on the highest setting, there was far less assist when climbing. Shimano and Bosch offered enough power enabling me to climb the steepest grades with confidence. It still required significant effort, but the assist was there too. I felt fine climbing on eco and medium assist for steep pitches.
Brose climbing the exact same hills was a struggle. I had to spin furiously at the base of the hill, gather a lot of momentum to get up steep pitches. I actually though the motor was bad or the battery depleted. The specialized rep said the battery was at 50%!
Emtb's are not light. Most weigh close to 50 lbs. You NEED assist for 15%+ grades with a bike this heavy. Brose would be my last choice for e-mtb riding. In fact, it wouldn't be a choice at all.
As far as the video you posted, that's a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR BICYCLE and it posts 700 watts peak?!? That's not very impressive. A radrover produces 750 watts and it costs $1700.
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Ravi Kempaiah
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Thanks for sharing your personal opinion.
bob armani
Well-Known Member
FYI- I had a very interesting experience with the Levo/Brose' motor. I rode an Expert at my LBS and it was very sluggish and felt like it had very little power and no umph! However, I test rode the same E-bike months later at the local E-bike Expo and the Levo was incredibly nimble, faster off the line and had quite a bit more torque than the one tested at the LBS. This was perfect environment to test different models (over 25) to do ride comparisons of many different mfgs. Points to ponder.
dan silver
Member
What kind of test rides? Parking lot? Simulated off road course? I rode on actual trails with steep but short climbs. Brose failed badly.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
I have ridden brose(weekend rental), shimano(2 week loaner bike) and bosch(many rides swapping with friend) and all for extended periods of time on very difficult offroad trails, many exceeding 15%+.
I personally now own a brose equipped bulls ebike. I would give my reasons but I doubt you would care
Not that you would consider opinions of anyone else, funny how contencious discussions seem to pop up wherever you go on these forums.
You clearly misinterpret that chart... or maybe you like pedaling like a hamster to reach 20mph... What really that chart is saying is that Yamaha reaches its max power for max speed of 20mph speed (for a class 1 ebike) at 70 RPM while Bosch requires 85 rpm shimano 90 RPM and brose 60 RPM. Having tested all those motors and being 60yo I can tell you that I truly appreciate and enjoy the 70 RPM of Yamaha to reach the max 20mph. If you can get above 70 RPM it just means that the motor will not be assisting as much as you are trying to get over that 20mph. And if you want you can easily change that with a 20mph speed unlocker to have Yamaha motor assist to higher RPM and of course be getting much higher MPH than 20 (and breaking the law in the process). So the chart DOES NOT SAY that "yamaha motors are underpowered compared to their competition".
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You are comparing apple to oranges... I bought a $1200 Yamaha PW ebike (Haibike 2018 SDURO Radius Tour) that comes with a 500W battery and has a range of 100+ miles in eco mode, while doing the same max speed of 20MPH that the $1700 RadRover can do with a 672W battery and a range of less than 1/3 (35miles) of the Yamaha ebike. I guess by your own verdict, the RadRover ebike and its motor must suck by being extremely inefficient, more expensive with less range and with the same max speed.
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As a semi-engineer I would like to see the source of the data for this chart. It seems this is the only chart around but I haven't seen anyone mentioning who/ when/how conducted this test.
dan silver
Member
It lists for $3K but you got it for $1200. So it was steeply discounted because it wasn't selling. Meanwhile Rads have gone up in price across the line and they discount one day a year.
Demand for yamaha motors is low. Hence the blow out price to get rid of old stock. CrazyLenny's right?
https://propelbikes.com/product/haibike-sduro-radius-tour-2018/
Meanwhile rad and juiced sold bikes for $200 to $300 off on Black Friday. That's 10-15% off. You got a discount of 60%.
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dan silver
Member
I'd like to see the source as well but I posted it because it reflects my experiences with bosch, shimano and brose, with bosch providing the most power, shimano second (or very close) and brose a distant third.
Over50
Well-Known Member
Didn't Brose launch a new motor in 2018? The Brose S. Just wondering if there is some old motor (the Brose T) vs new motor confusion in this thread. I haven't ridden one. Everything I could find after the launch of the Brose S seemed positive.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/exclusive-review-brose-drive-s/
dan silver
Member
You think a cadence of 90 rpm is "hamster wheeling?" That's a perfectly normal cadence and best for your knees as well. I can easily maintain a cadence of 97 rpm. That's normal and comfortable for me. 85-90 is unnaturally slow and low except when climbing.
Notice how broad of a power band shimano and bosch motors have. Much more usable power across the full range of cadence. Yamaha falls off sharply exactly where cadence is recommended: 90 rpm. It's a poor design. Not to mention it offers less power across the board regardless.
Brose is just underpowered across the board.
bob armani
Well-Known Member
SirJonathan
Active Member
I shoot for an average cadence of 105rpm on my road bike. It's WAY lower on my CCX eBike. I don't have a cadence sensor on it but after years of cycling I would guess it's somewhere between 80-90 for me to be in my comfort zone with it. A little lower if I'm going only 15mph or so on ECO or 1.
I'm uncomfortable spinning much faster than that on platform pedals without my clipless setup and I don't want to migrate those over to my eBike because it's for fun and hopping on in whatever footwear I have and enjoying the ride.
I'm uncomfortable spinning much faster than that on platform pedals without my clipless setup and I don't want to migrate those over to my eBike because it's for fun and hopping on in whatever footwear I have and enjoying the ride.
tomjasz
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You think a cadence of 90 rpm is "hamster wheeling?" That's a perfectly normal cadence and best for your knees as well. I can easily maintain a cadence of 97 rpm.
Heck yes! Jeebus, some of us oldsters did eBikes for a second life. 90rpm? Keep it. It’d destroy my knees.
Heck yes! Jeebus, some of us oldsters did eBikes for a second life. 90rpm? Keep it. It’d destroy my knees.
dan silver
Member
You think a cadence of 90 rpm is "hamster wheeling?" That's a perfectly normal cadence and best for your knees as well. I can easily maintain a cadence of 97 rpm.
Heck yes! Jeebus, some of us oldsters did eBikes for a second life. 90rpm? Keep it. It’d destroy my knees.[/QUOTE]
Do you ride a single speed?
If not, you can downshift gears. I can maintain 16-18 mph easily on the flats at well over 90 rpm cadence. With different bikes, I use a 32, 34, 38 and 50 ring. Obviously on standard bicycles. You can run much higher gearing with an e-bike.
As a matter of fact, your knees will be much healthier at high cadence gear using an easier gear compared to a low cadence with a bigger gear.
Pushing a bigger gear at low rpm is asking for trouble.
Heck yes! Jeebus, some of us oldsters did eBikes for a second life. 90rpm? Keep it. It’d destroy my knees.[/QUOTE]
Do you ride a single speed?
If not, you can downshift gears. I can maintain 16-18 mph easily on the flats at well over 90 rpm cadence. With different bikes, I use a 32, 34, 38 and 50 ring. Obviously on standard bicycles. You can run much higher gearing with an e-bike.
As a matter of fact, your knees will be much healthier at high cadence gear using an easier gear compared to a low cadence with a bigger gear.
Pushing a bigger gear at low rpm is asking for trouble.
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