Yamaha EBike with most natural assist and regular bike feel

[linklemming]

Dan,

Have you considered the Focus Jam2 ebike? Its available at a well known online bike retailer for a good price. I actually ordered one on black friday but ended up cancelling(a CCX was a better compliment to my existing eMTB).

It has everything YOU seem to think is important.

Small Integrated Battery/Light weight(with excellent option for an external battery)
Shimano e8000 Motor which allows you to know when its working(i.e. noisy).

I had a shimano e8000 equipped Bulls FS ebike as a loaner for 2 weeks (10 20mile+ rides including many 15%+ sections).

In the end, it wasnt the correct fit...for me although I respected the design 'as an engineer'(i.e. low q factor and abilty to use existing MTB parts like cranks)

But it might work for you, I dont apply my needs/desires/assumptions/conclusions to everyone else

 

[dan silver]

Dan,

Have you considered the Focus Jam2 ebike? Its available at a well known online bike retailer for a good price. I actually ordered one on black friday but ended up cancelling(a CCX was a better compliment to my existing eMTB).

It has everything YOU seem to think is important.

Small Integrated Battery/Light weight(with excellent option for an external battery)
Shimano e8000 Motor which allows you to know when its working(i.e. noisy).

I had a shimano e8000 equipped Bulls FS ebike as a loaner for 2 weeks (10 20mile+ rides including many 15%+ sections).

In the end, it wasnt the correct fit...for me although I respected the design 'as an engineer'(i.e. low q factor and abilty to use existing MTB parts like cranks)

But it might work for you, I dont apply my needs/desires/assumptions/conclusions to everyone else

Those are $7K bikes, not to mention they are out of business in the US market.

They're great bikes, I demoed them. They're a bit of a boutique brand and they didn't have the distribution network to compete with the bigger names: specialized and trek for instance.

I've honed in on the two makes I'm interested in. I'd like to test ride one of them at least. But basically I'm looking for a bike with the following:

-hydraulic brakes
-at least 500 watt hours battery preferably 650 or above
-torque sensor preferred, would like both cadence and torque but unlikely
-front suspension standard
-throttle
-class 3 28 mph top speed preferred
-larger chainring (no hamster wheeling)
-$3K or below price point
-good track record for customer service
-hub or mid drive: not a strong preference either way
-double duty road and offroad

I'll have to arrange a test ride if possible and contact manufacturers about frame geometry to see if the bikes fit

 

[PDoz]

Brand loyalty is such a strange beast.

We have a thread on the FEEL of a motor, then people are arguing about an advertorial graph that's TWO GENERATIONS OLD for all the non bosch motors.

Go ride the bikes, decide which one feels the way you like, let other people do the same .

 

[AZOldTech]

It lists for $3K but you got it for $1200. So it was steeply discounted because it wasn't selling. Meanwhile Rads have gone up in price across the line and they discount one day a year.

Demand for yamaha motors is low. Hence the blow out price to get rid of old stock. CrazyLenny's right?

https://propelbikes.com/product/haibike-sduro-radius-tour-2018/

Meanwhile rad and juiced sold bikes for $200 to $300 off on Black Friday. That's 10-15% off. You got a discount of 60%.

You are comparing a direct only manufacturer price to one with a dealer network markup. So you could have bought that ebike for $1400-1500 during any day of the past 2 months. And that makes it cheaper and better with hydraulic brakes and 50%-70% more range than the $1700 radrover at the same 20mph max speed.

 

[dan silver]

You could have bought that ebike for $1300-1400 during any day of the past 2 months. And that makes it cheaper and better with hydraulic brakes and 70% more range than the $1700 radrover.

The 20" wheels and lack of suspension limit it's appeal. It also has a 36v battery not 48v.

With wheels that small, I'd want it to be a folder, an enormous convenience.

Hydraulics are nice but you can buy aftermarket hydraulics for $80/pair.

The nice thing about the bike is it's unusually low standover. Great for shorter riders.

I don't know where you get that range estimate from: it has a standard 500 watthour battery: rads have 1/3 more capacity.

Can you actually haul gear? It seems like the panniers would be very close to the ground.

If you like the haibike, that's great. At $1400 I'd rather spend $300 more and get a radfolder. Adding hydraulics would add around $100 or so, but Id also get 33% more range, a 48v battery, front suspension, and folding capacity. Super convenient. I'll have to test ride one soon.

 

[AZOldTech]

The 20" wheels and lack of suspension limit it's appeal. It also has a 36v battery not 48v.

With wheels that small, I'd want it to be a folder, an enormous convenience.

Hydraulics are nice but you can buy aftermarket hydraulics for $80/pair.

The nice thing about the bike is it's unusually low standover. Great for shorter riders.

I don't know where you get that wacky range estimate from: it has a standard 500 watthour battery: rads have 1/3 more capacity.

Can you actually haul gear? It seems like the panniers would be very close to the ground.

If you like the haibike, that's great. At $1400 I'd rather spend $300 more and get a radfolder. Adding hydraulics would add around $100 or so, but Id also get 33% more range, a 48v battery, front suspension, and folding capacity. Super convenient. I'll have to test ride one soon.

Those $80 no name brand china made hydraulic brakes will be as crappy as the rest of the radmini folding bike for $1700. Real shimano good hydraulic brakes with cut-off add a minimum of $200 installed. Also even though both bikes are considered "portable", the haibike weights only 49lb while the radmini is almost 20lb heavier or 40% more at 67lb, it leaves out the fact that the radmini breaks the frame and adds a hinge, while the Sduro Radius does not and makes the sduro the stronger stiffer more responsive better lighter ebike, yet still portable with a swiveling handle bars, telescoping steering tube, and flip-folding pedals that allows it to become very flat.

As far as range, from Court's own words: Sduro Radius Min range: 53mi, Max range: 128mi, Radmini min range: 22mi, max range: 42mi or 60% less on average
https://electricbikereview.com/haibike/radius-tour/
https://electricbikereview.com/rad-power-bikes/radmini/

So what good is a 36V 500W vs 48V 670W battery when the 36V500W battery produces 60% better range and speed (with BluePed tuning I get 28mph) with similar torque (70 vs 80 Newton meters). And since I both test rode a RadMini and have a Haibike Radius, I can tell you for a fact that the Radius OBLITERATES the radmini in range, quietness, speed, frame strength, stopping power, responsiveness and portability, not to mention that the feel of a mid drive bike is eons ahead of anything that a rear hub motor bike produces. And does it for $500 cheaper for the price that I paid with local warranty and service.

 

[dan silver]

Those $80 no name brand china made hydraulic brakes will be as crappy as the rest of the radmini folding bike for $1700. Real shimano good hydraulic brakes with cut-off add a minimum of $200 installed. Also even though both bikes are considered "portable", the haibike weights only 49lb while the radmini is almost 20lb heavier or 40% more at 67lb, it leaves out the fact that the radmini breaks the frame and adds a hinge, while the Sduro Radius does not and makes the sduro the stronger stiffer more responsive better lighter ebike, yet still portable with a swiveling handle bars, telescoping steering tube, and flip-folding pedals that allows it to become very flat.

As far as range, from Court's own words: Sduro Radius Min range: 53mi, Max range: 128mi, Radmini min range: 22mi, max range: 42mi or 60% less on average
https://electricbikereview.com/haibike/radius-tour/
https://electricbikereview.com/rad-power-bikes/radmini/

So what good is a 36V 500W vs 48V 670W battery when the 36V500W battery produces 60% better range and speed (with BluePed tuning I get 28mph) with similar torque (70 vs 80 Newton meters). And since I both test rode a RadMini and have a Haibike Radius, I can tell you for a fact that the Radius OBLITERATES the radmini in range, quietness, speed, frame strength, stopping power, responsiveness and portability, not to mention that the feel of a mid drive bike is eons ahead of anything that a rear hub motor bike produces. And does it for $500 cheaper for the price that I paid with local warranty and service.

Those range estimates are meaningless. Those figures are estimates from the manufacturers themselves and I have no doubt the haibike figure is massively inflated. No one in their right mind believes 500 watt hours delivers BETTER range than 672 watthours. This is pure delusion.

You say that the haibike "obliterates" the rad in range based upon a test ride?!? How long were your test rides? You test rode your haibike for 128 miles?!? I bet the bike shop sent out an APB in that case! Your rad test ride was for 42 miles? You just said those were range ESTIMATES. You have no clue what the actual range is.

Stopping power: do you realize hydraulics only advantage is in wet weather? Even rim brakes will stop as quickly as hydraulics when it's dry. Did you test the brakes in a swimming pool? Torrential downpour? Except in wet weather, hydraulics do not stop the bike faster.

The haibike is faster? Hub motors are faster on pavement; mid drives offer more torque but accelerate more slowly. Both top out at 20 mph. The review you linked to lists the haibike as a class1, not class3. 20 mph top speed.

Frame strength: you have no evidence that the haibike frame is any "stronger." How many load cycles is each frame capable of? Which lab did the testing? Show your proof.

Quietness: did you use a decibel meter or app? What your figures for both bikes? Show your data.

I watched both review videos and there doesn't seem to be a significant advantage for the haibike in terms of motor noise. There is a lot of wind and tire noise in the radfolder video, so hard to tell. Not to mention, the yamaha cuts out at 100 rpm, which would account for it's relative silence: it's not working! Easy for a motor to be silent if it's not even on eh?

A folder isn't necessarily any less stiff than a standard bicycle. Tom Ritchey's folder is renowned for it's stiffness even though it has multiple hinges. Take a look again at the ridiculously low standover (not a bad thing) on your haibike. To compensate, the seatpost is extremely long. This will introduce flex. Look at the specialized roubaix 2017-. The seatpost clamp was lowered deliberately in order to introduce flex. This design is an intentional feature. Flex is not bad. Flex, in the right amount, is a beneficial feature. Now look at the radfolder. A normal standover. That means less seatpost is exposed. This means less flex. is that good or bad? Depends upon what the rider wants. Are you extremely heavy? You want less frame flex. Lightweight? you want more. Eliminate flex completely and a frame becomes wooden, unresponsive not to mention unnecessarily stiff and uncomfortable. You are ignoring basic principles of frame design. Not to mention you don't have any idea how much flex there is in the haibike vs rad frame in the first place. It is possible to measure frame stiffness. You don't have any data, yet you make absolute claims without the slightest justification.

You are being sneaky and saying the radfolder is unreliable. I could say the same about the folding pedals or telescoping steerer are flexy on your haibike and could collapse and fail at any moment. Look out! I have no evidence to back these claims so I don't make them. Of course, evidence is completely irrelevant in your assessments, so go ahead, say whatever you want, just because.

Weight: you say the rad is 67 lbs. It is 63.7 lbs. It does weigh more, but at least get your facts straight.

Local warranty and support: lucky you. Rad riders can get that same support depending upon their location. So can haibike riders. Depending upon location. Since you were able to test ride the rad, that means you would have had local support for the rad as well, had you so chosen.

Feel: you say the yamaha is "eons" ahead. What unit of measure is an "eon?" That is a measure of time, not of "feel." Not to mention you don't define what "feel" is.

As noted, here is a full set of ebike compatible shimano hydraulic brakes with brake cutoff for $112.

https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-Hydraulic-Brake-Bafang-Shi-ma-no/dp/B06XCMP6NQ

In reality, you have absolutely zero evidence to support any of your claims. You have hyperbole (hype) but not one iota of evidence of support for any of your claims.

 

[dan silver]

Zero to an expert in 5 posts. Please! The snarky retorts do nothing to help grow a knowledge base and healthy exchanges of ideas.
I'd stand my rim brakes up to ANY $112 disc set. ANY. BB7 cable discs are more reliable than a $112 hydraulic set. A decent folder that has no folding design problems has a price tag as high as an electric folder from RadRover.

Using this "logic" the $1200 haibike must be utter garbage since it costs far less than the $1700 radfolder.

 

[vincent]

dan I own both a haibike Yamaha hardtail and a radmini

I love rad, think they are a great company

but there is no comparison from haibike to rad in quality etc
rad is not even trying to compete in that marketplace, it is a different thing



and you cannot put those hydraulic brakes on the rad, their whole set up is proprietary and they do not just plug in- unless this changed on the 2019 but that is not my impression

you may can cut some wires and void your warranty and get it to work but they do not just plug and play

 

[tomjasz]

Using this "logic" the $1200 haibike must be utter garbage since it costs far less than the $1700 radfolder.

That's not my point. But honestly maybe just step back a bit, introduce yourself, make a few friends and share what bikes you have owned, built or own that are electric. Instead, it seems sarcasm and terse responses rule. There are fellas here that have 10 plus years of experience with owning several, if not many bikes and motors. The experience for me talks louder than digging out questionable stats or making hard and fast conclusions based on a few short demo rides. Perhaps we can start over.

Hi, my name is Tom. I have 6 running bikes and 2 more and a scooter in build. I've had every design on the market in my shop or on my bikes in my short 5 years. I'm retired and work part time supporting batteries and mid-drive motors for a well known kit reseller. I struggle with electronics having had a purely criminal justice and horticulture education. But I' learning.

You?

 

[SirJonathan]

This is why on all Amazon reviews I always select "Verified Purchase" and read those. If you don't own it, you are definitely entitled to your opinion, but it means little to me. The people that have purchased the product and used it are the ones I want to listen to. Everybody else just regurgitates things they've read and becomes merely a "fact compiler". Those are fine for keyboard bike riders, but I actually ride my bike so I'd like to hear from others like me.

I keep using the Tesla analogy, not just because they are both electric and going against the analog old establishment, but because the detractors and naysayers are so similar. Obviously this is on a much smaller scale and you don't have all the Tesla short-seller detractors that add a whole other fun element to "reviews".

I'm not going to ignore Dan because he's intelligent and he has a lot of opinions. It's weird to me that somebody would hop in all these threads of various bike manufacturers and provide such negative input on each vendor but everybody is different. He's argumentative and I'm not a fan of his "style" but different strokes for different folks.

I have a feeling we'll all put thousands of miles on our bikes, some of them won't be problem-free, alas, as Dan continues his search for that perfect bike - all while letting us know where we made a mistake on our purchase.

 

[dan silver]

This is why on all Amazon reviews I always select "Verified Purchase" and read those. If you don't own it, you are definitely entitled to your opinion, but it means little to me. The people that have purchased the product and used it are the ones I want to listen to. Everybody else just regurgitates things they've read and becomes merely a "fact compiler". Those are fine for keyboard bike riders, but I actually ride my bike so I'd like to hear from others like me.

I keep using the Tesla analogy, not just because they are both electric and going against the analog old establishment, but because the detractors and naysayers are so similar. Obviously this is on a much smaller scale and you don't have all the Tesla short-seller detractors that add a whole other fun element to "reviews".

I'm not going to ignore Dan because he's intelligent and he has a lot of opinions. It's weird to me that somebody would hop in all these threads of various bike manufacturers and provide such negative input on each vendor but everybody is different. He's argumentative and I'm not a fan of his "style" but different strokes for different folks.

I have a feeling we'll all put thousands of miles on our bikes, some of them won't be problem-free, alas, as Dan continues his search for that perfect bike - all while letting us know where we made a mistake on our purchase.

What brands have I been "negative" about? I have no information or opinion about yamaha motors. I have not had the opportunity to ride a yamaha equipped bike. If there is an opportunity for a longer demo as opposed to a short ride then yes, I'll be happy to.

I merely stated that I have an interest in the rad folder. At which point a certain poster, AZ, became livid and posted a whole series of completely false claims, saying his bike was superior. Two others chimed in saying rad was inferior (neither claimed any experience with the rad, coincidentally yet had very strong negative opinions: you're opposed to that, correct sir?). Both made unsubstantiated claims. At which point I politely but clearly and explicitly pointed out their errors in fact and reasoning to all three.

Any motor I write about, I've ridden for several hours. Yup, I rode the 18 specialized turbo brose for a couple of hours. I did spend some time going back to the demo tent to ask if there was a defect but the rep said no, everything's good. Rode some more. Nothing changed. Same with bosch, same with shimano. Longer rides, multiple times with each motor on different bikes. That's why I speak highly of shimano and bosch. They work great.

I don't hop in on various threads to throw shade. I have respect for the products that work exceptionally well, and am honest about products that don't work as well.

 

[SirJonathan]

"So, sir, you are wrong. I don't hop in on various threads to throw shade. I have respect for the products that work exceptionally well, and am honest about products that don't work as well.

It's interesting that you claim to be a poster of peace, yet throw out insulting, baiting terms in your own right. How do you justify baiting other posters (keyboard compilers) while insisting upon peace and tranquility in the forum?

You claim to be putting out the fire yet fan the flames. You can't have it both ways."

You're probably right. I probably am misreading you. You seem to be very positive about several bikes. I probably glossed over those. You're probably a super nice positive person. This is the Internet. Anybody can be anybody. No worries.

 

[dan silver]

Read post 49 above. Every single claim made by AZ I proved was either false or 100% unsubstantiated. Again, talking facts is trolling.

 

[SirJonathan]

When a person posts a chart and makes a generalized utterly wrong statement (one of many), "intelligent" would be the last word I'd use to describe him. More like a troll. I met quite a few trolls like him, including (like you mention) tesla haters in tesla boards, who never even owned a tesla EV. Once made themselves known, I found that ignoring them both cuts their BS and trolling and returns the board back to normal. But that's just my opinion.

Back in the old days of Tesla, I'm talking 2011 and 2012, the Tesla Manufacturer forums were the only ones around. Nobody used Facebook or Reddit for products in those days.

There was this guy, Brian H. was his username. This guy knew EVERYTHING about Tesla. People would ask about bolts on the wheels and he'd chime in. He was (in)famous for correcting grammar and spelling - the loathe of many a forumite. He knew every power chart, every issue, every problem. He would chide users for asking questions that were already answered. He would bring up issues with Tesla and directly address Jerome Guillen, the head of Tesla Sales who would often respond directly to forum questions. I would guess that 90% of the daily forum users despised Brian H. But he was probably the most knowledgable resource on the forums. And boy would he go after them on the issues.

Then one day, maybe around 2013, somebody asked him what version of the Model S he had. Silence. A thread was made asking about it. No response. Finally, he responded: he didn't own a Tesla. Wasn't planning on buying one. All of the issues he raised were from reading the forums and studying the manuals. He had no personal experience with one. I'm not talking about maybe he drove one for an hour and had formed an opinion - he had never SEEN one in person.

Immediately his opinion meant little. There was quite a bit of ribbing and what I felt was unfair discounting of his future opinions. He ended up just vanishing one day. Somebody stated they had a personal exchange with him via email and he was a disabled older pensioner from the East Coast. Who knows.

So yeah, I've seen a lot of strange stuff. I just stick to listening to those that have the product that I have and how they like it and what I can learn from it. Somebody that borrowed one for a weekend is good to hear, but unless you live with it and ride it every day you'll only know so much.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

@Mike TowpathTraveler what kind of grips are those?

LimboJim: Apologies for not seeing your question posed to me. Anyways, those bar end grips are the new version released in the past year by Cane Creek, called the Ergo Control bar ends. Best, most comfortable bar end grip you'll ever own. It opens up different riding positions for me. The kraton rubber is soft, very comfy.

I have them on my Specialized Fatboy. Love them so much I bought pairs of these things (the original Ergo Control II grips) when they would come up for sale on Ebay; at the time when CC stopped making them. I even asked the company if they had plans on selling them again, they told me no; but not much later they did make a return.....

Link: https://www.canecreek.com/product/ergo-control-bar-ends/