Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[PensFan]

The were the Nireeka Homie and the Motobecane ULTRA eAdventure. Neither one of these bikes would be a good fit for you and your wife, and both are only available online-- however, I'm going to post a full review of the Motobecane, which is what I bought. I am very happy with it now, though 120 miles ago, I was not so sure! Both of them have full suspension, relatively lightweight, and are underpowered, which is probably not helpful! I am just over six feet tall, weigh just under 150 pounds, I need a good workout, and ride on very bad pavement as well as dirt roads and the occasional single track.

I will let you know when my review of the Moto is done, (later this week, I hope) because if you WERE open to buying online, I am really liking this brand for build quality, and I do like the Shimano mid-drive, and there are other Motobecanes that might be more appealing to you guys.

I will also tell you that my other bike-- a hub drive-- DIED last Thursday when my buddy was riding it-- though I don't yet know what the problem was. I suspect it was a battery failure, but if it was the hub motor that failed, I think that's interesting, because it's a hub motor with a very good reputation. I did not abuse it at all, but I did ride it up very steep hills in very low gears. So I'm starting the whole warranty process, we'll see what happens.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking maybe a mid drive might be better for you guys, and to reconsider the throttle issue, because throttles often decrease range significantly, but I'm still really new to this, only been at it five or six months. The other folks on this forum have a lot more experience and can inform you about a broader range of options.

Also, where is NEOH? Is that Northeast Ohio?

Yes....we are in the 'burbs of Cleveland.....and i sincerely appreciate your reply...congrats on the new bike...enjoy and safe riding!!

 

[Marrduk24]

This has been a really fun & educational thread to read. I have been asking myself the same question.
One hub motor bike that I am looking forward to is Shakti by Zen/ Ravi.

Meanwhile wondering other than Stromer who’s making high quality hub motor ebikes.

 

[fooferdoggie]

there is dapu but it seems not too common except for pedago

 

[Marrduk24]

there is dapu but it seems not too common except for pedago

I like a lot about Ridge rider but it’s class only.

would be great to have a high quality 500/750w hub drive with belt drive/ Deore+ drivetrain, High quality front suspension fork for rough roads (Eg Suntour Mobie 45 Recon RL or even Rockshox 35 gold), 600 wh+ battery and be < $3k. I believe Shakti from Ravi checks most of these boxes. But don’t be around until year end.

 

[Dewey]

This has been a really fun & educational thread to read. I have been asking myself the same question.
One hub motor bike that I am looking forward to is Shakti by Zen/ Ravi.

Meanwhile wondering other than Stromer who’s making high quality hub motor ebikes.

Vintage Electric use Taiwanese brand TDCM hub DD motors and either Thun bottom bracket torque PAS sensors for their Cafe and Rally Class 3 ebike models, or throttle + torque PAS sensor for their electric motorcycles.

Folding bike maker Brompton uses a custom front hub motor designed by Williams.

 

[Marrduk24]

Vintage Electric use Taiwanese brand TDCM hub DD motors and either Thun bottom bracket torque PAS sensors for their Cafe and Rally Class 3 ebike models, or throttle + torque PAS sensor for their electric motorcycles.

Folding bike maker Brompton uses a custom front hub motor designed by Williams.

Ohh I do like Rally a lot. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Dewey]

There’s also the Mahle/ebikemotion x35 geared hub motor system mentioned earlier in the thread, as used by several brands on lightweight (<35lb) ebikes.

In the EU several brands use the German neodrives Z20 direct drive hub motor system that comes in both EU pedelec and speed pedelec (equivalent to US Class 3) versions. A 2020 German ebike article lists several high end models using the combination of the neodrives z20 hub motor plus Pinion bottom bracket mounted gearbox.

Also in the EU, Taiwanese motorcycle/scooter manufacturer Kymco sell a line of ebike models under the Klever brand using their Biactron direct drive hub motor.

 

[Ebiker01]

What's the manufacturing cost of A vs B , does anyone knows ?
The other thing is that one can actually buy a good hub drive motor (DAPU/Bafang and others ) but to get a new mid drive motor(excluding warranty issues) from the leading brands is not possible.

 

[Chapooski]

What's the manufacturing cost of A vs B , does anyone knows ?
The other thing is that one can actually buy a good hub drive motor (DAPU/Bafang and others ) but to get a new mid drive motor(excluding warranty issues) from the leading brands is not possible.

You can purchase some of the Bafang mid-drives at the retail level.

 

[Ebiker01]

You can purchase some of the Bafang mid-drives at the retail level.

Yes but not a Shimano or Bosch motor .

Some older ebikes that have for ex. Shimano E8000, can perfectly be fitted with the new EP8, but Shimano won't sell just the motor.

 

[Chapooski]

Yes but not a Shimano or Bosch motor .

Some older ebikes that have for ex. Shimano E8000, can perfectly be fitted with the new EP8, but Shimano won't sell just the motor.

Yes, I realize that new Shimano and Bosch mid-drive motors only (without bike) are not available at the retail level outside of a warranty replacement and that is why I only mentioned Bafang because I figured they could be considered one of the "leading brands" as you mentioned previously were "not possible" to get.

 

[Ebiker01]

Intersting , only 1 new Shimano steps motor (50NM$ on ebay @480$ and 4-5 Bosch. A new Bosch performance cx line (75NM)@1k .Not sure if it's Gen.2/3/4 ?
Good torque is xpensive .

Shimano Steps DU-E6002 E-Bike Motor Freewheel Black E6000 Di2 - New | eBay

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Bosch Performance Line Cx 2.Gen E-Bike Motor 75Nm mid-Engine Drive Unit - New | eBay

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[Chapooski]

Intersting , only 1 new Shimano steps motor (50NM$ on ebay @480$ and 4-5 Bosch. A new Bosch performance cx line (75NM)@1k .Not sure if it's Gen.2/3/4 ?
Good torque is xpensive .

Shimano Steps DU-E6002 E-Bike Motor Freewheel Black E6000 Di2 - New | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Shimano Steps DU-E6002 E-Bike Motor Freewheel Black E6000 Di2 - New at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Bosch Performance Line Cx 2.Gen E-Bike Motor 75Nm mid-Engine Drive Unit - New | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Bosch Performance Line Cx 2.Gen E-Bike Motor 75Nm mid-Engine Drive Unit - New at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Well that is interesting, I had no idea those motors were available on ebay and being sold as new product. I tend to look at ebay stuff with a bit of skepticism. Are these motors older stock or outdated versions? I wonder where the seller gets them from?

 

[Ebiker01]

Ebay is pretty safe, a lot of protections for buyers . Yea, i don't know about the motors source either. Possibly were taken off from a new old stock ebike , it can make better returns smtms. selling just the parts.

 

[Kyle44]

HUB motors are heavier and have worse reliability, that's my take on this.

 

[Dewey]

HUB motors are heavier and have worse reliability, that's my take on this.

With regards to a direct drive hub motor I agree they are heavier but I disagree that they are less reliable they have fewer moving parts and are quieter & more efficient at high speed that’s why they are used by Stromer, Klever, Vintage, & others for Class 3 speed pedelecs

 

[Kyle44]

With regards to a direct drive hub motor I agree they are heavier but I disagree that they are less reliable they have fewer moving parts and are quieter & more efficient at high speed that’s why they are used by Stromer, Klever, Vintage, & others for Class 3 speed pedelecs

In my experience, they are more unreliable. They can be loud too. But I still like them! Need the extra torque when going offroad.

 

[Dewey]

Need the extra torque when going offroad.

Exactly, different tools for different tasks.

 

[avandalen]

250W e-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors​

See my article here:

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

 

[fooferdoggie]

250W e-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms hub motors​

See my article here:

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

2010 with some updates?