Why did the EU choose 250W?

Bosch and others are very capable climbers. 250W nominal motors can put out significantly higher wattage. The EU has very different standards then the USA. Here we promote the use of vehicles that are fuelish! We kit bikes that are often equipped with dangerously inadequate brakes. My 2 cents.
 
Thanks, but I still wonder where that 250W came from.

I notice Yamaha offered its 235W PAS in 1993, and an average person riding at an average pace outputs about 100W of power.
 
electricbikereview.com

UK petition to change the law to allow >250W

Please sign the linked petition to insrease the current restriction on uk ebikes from 250W maximum Thank you! Petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/332333?fbclid=IwAR3KFFMS3DBAG-bXWxULDs_ioJ5M8S7By7ln-wNusC5h59AqbXp6DHGcMv8 Story...
electricbikereview.com electricbikereview.com
 
Because we can ride e-bikes in all European national forests while you Americans cannot, Law. Or, can you?
Because distances in Europe are not that big as they are in the United States or Canada.
Because EU mid-drive motor e-bikes are perfect climbers.
Because we Europeans are not cowboys :D And we know what the derailleur is made for (because most of Europeans drive manual transmission cars).

My Specialized and Giant mid-motors are 250 W nominal but they pump up to 520 W peak power, and there is also drive-train for climbing ability or speed. And yes, my 45 km/h Vado is superior to U.S. Class 3 Vado 5.0 in terms of componentry and safety features.
 
Winfried: Because some bureaucrat said so. Here is the article from the era the legislation was voted on:
www.bike-eu.com

EU Vote Limits Pedelecs to 250 Watt

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Yesterday afternoon the European Parliament voted on the new type approval legislation on two- and three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles. The Parliament decided to keep the original European Commission proposal: only pedelecs with a maximum speed of 25 km/h and 250 watts...
www.bike-eu.com www.bike-eu.com

The U.S. legislation makes more sense: 750 W is approximately 1 horsepower. Oh, these cowboys 😃
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Winfried: Because some bureaucrat said so. Here is the article from the era the legislation was voted on:
www.bike-eu.com

EU Vote Limits Pedelecs to 250 Watt

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Yesterday afternoon the European Parliament voted on the new type approval legislation on two- and three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles. The Parliament decided to keep the original European Commission proposal: only pedelecs with a maximum speed of 25 km/h and 250 watts...
www.bike-eu.com www.bike-eu.com

The U.S. legislation makes more sense: 750 W is approximately 1 horsepower. Oh, these cowboys 😃
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It seems more likely that the automobile lobby wrote the legislation in order to cripple the nascent ebike industry.
 
RunForTheHills said:
It seems more likely that the automobile lobby wrote the legislation in order to cripple the nascent ebike industry.
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And/or the traditional bicycle manufacturing industry, who at that time had no ebikes and no tolerance for them, wanted to keep the new tech they didn't sell or appreciate as having sales potential as ineffective as possible.

Things have changed since then and now we see 'nominal' tossed around as an excuse by manufacturers to work around the near-worthless 250w limit of bikes they now realize they can sell the bejesus out of (more tellingly, '250w' has been largely eliminated from sales material and now we see 'newton meters' being touted instead). I'm guessing the factor 4 initiative that was going to limit things still further is unlikely to move forward as well, now that ebikes are recognized as commercially viable.

leva-eu.com

TRL research on factor 4 questions current type-approval for speed pedelecs

There is no evidence that the maximum assistance factor 4 has any effect on the safety of speed pedelecs. And, the scope of Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 does not cater for the many variants of electric bicycles and the possibilities that exist to modify those vehicles. Those are the 2 main...
leva-eu.com leva-eu.com
 
Stefan Mikes said:
The U.S. legislation makes more sense: 750 W is approximately 1 horsepower. Oh, these cowboys 😃
Click to expand...
Better a horse than a donkey :D

donkeypower.PNG

https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/donkey+power#:~:text=A unit of power equal,it is approximately ⅓ horsepower.
 
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Winfried said:
It still doesn't answer the question.

Why 250W, instead of 100W, 150W, 350W, etc. ?
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I'm struggling to find reference to it, but I vaguely remember watching a YouTube video that claimed much the EU ebike laws were based on existing Japanese legalisation, which were limited to 250w.

I've tried googling but its hard to find a source...so not sure exactly how true that is.
 
A pro cyclist can generate 400 watts for an hour. He might have slight bursts of greater power, but can't maintain it. An average adult, of average fitness can generate 50 to 150 watts for an hour while cycling.

A 250 watt Euro spec ebike peaks between 500 and 600 watts. So an average adult ebike rider, with average skills has greater power and speed than a fit, experienced pro cyclist.

www.roadbikerider.com


What is a good average wattage ​


To add further content to the speed and power issue:

Average cycling speed for new and experienced cyclists​

Average cycling speeds, for amateurs, enthusiasts and professionals, with guidelines and targets for all levels of cyclist
www.road-bike.co.uk

Even with equipment upgrades a cyclist cannot maintain high speed/watts

I need a bigger gear to go faster! (Probably not) - Chain Reaction Bicycles- Redwood City, CA​


www.chainreaction.com
www.chainreaction.com

Experienced professional cyclists, at the peak of their mental and physical fitness cannot maintain the watts, power and speed of a 250/500 watt ebike.

Why 250 watts? Probably a lot of similar data. I think the idea of assist was to allow the average person to commute and recreate in a similar way an avid cyclist can. They seem to have actually gone a little beyond, maybe accounting for older and weaker users. Personally I think the watts is enough, but the 15.5 mph is a little on the slow side. 20 mph could be useful. There is always the option of speed pedelec.
 
The question I would ask is, "why would you need more?"

Nearly all Northern European cities are pancake-flat. And with 250w in the flats you can easily max out to the 25kph (or even the 32kph) speeds with relatively little effort. So there isn't any huge win to having a heavier, more expensive, yet more powerful motor.

Also, on the average, Europeans are more svelte and supple than their American counterparts, so they don't need those extra watts to push that extra tonnage around.
 
Mr. Coffee said:
Nearly all Northern European cities are pancake-flat.
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Not really. Oslo? Stockholm? Scandinavia proper (Norway and Sweden) is not flat!
Now, let's talk Central Europe: Alps (including Dinaric), Carpathians, Sudeten, Vosges and many other mountain ranges.
(If we visit south of Europe, it becomes very hilly: Pyrenees, Apenines, Balkans and let us talk Greece, for instance).

I agree to your general thought: "Why should Europeans need more than 250 W nominal?" The e-MTB is the European thing. The first modern e-MTB ever was conceived in Switzerland for an American company by name Specialized :)
 
Mr. Coffee said:
The question I would ask is, "why would you need more?"

Nearly all Northern European cities are pancake-flat. And with 250w in the flats you can easily max out to the 25kph (or even the 32kph) speeds with relatively little effort. So there isn't any huge win to having a heavier, more expensive, yet more powerful motor.

Also, on the average, Europeans are more svelte and supple than their American counterparts, so they don't need those extra watts to push that extra tonnage around.
Click to expand...

This assumes that people want more power whilst keeping the same speed limit - and in my experience, that certainly isn't the case. In fact, I'd say the 15.5mph speed limit is a greater barrier to people purchasing an e-bike than the 250w power output itself.

Without doubt the first question I'm asked about my bike is "how fast does it go".... I've replied saying "legally limited to 15.5mph" before (its not but never mind), and the look of disappointment which drops over their face is palpable. The next question is "how far does it go", and then "how much does it cost", and when I mention that, I've honestly had people laugh.... "You can buy a decent second hand car for that" they'll reply.....

Likewise, if I've ever given a friend/family a ride on my bike, you're pretty much guaranteed they'll be using the throttle. Pedalling has been banished like VHS Tapes and CD players... Kids today only know the latest and greatest! :D

I think many are looking at e-bikes as alternative transport to their car (commuting, shopping, meeting friends) rather than for the pleasure of cycling per-se. Whether right or wrong the perception of power is a machine that's more capable, in hill climbing, load carrying, or even in general - mixing it with other road traffic.
 
MartsEbike said:
Likewise, if I've ever given a friend/family a ride on my bike, you're pretty much guaranteed they'll be using the throttle. Pedalling has been banished like VHS Tapes and CD players... Kids today only know the latest and greatest! :D
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First of all, throttle is legally not allowed in Europe. Not sure about post-Brexit UK.
Secondly, perhaps pedalling has been banished in your family but you better visit the continental Europe whenever possible :) There is an explosion of cycling including e-biking in the EU.
Thirdly, one of the questions I'm getting from bystanders is "Of course, this e-bike is derestricted, isn't it" :D
 
Stefan Mikes said:
First of all, throttle is legally not allowed in Europe. Not sure about post-Brexit UK.
Secondly, perhaps pedalling has been banished in your family but you better visit the continental Europe whenever possible :) There is an explosion of cycling including e-biking in the EU.
Thirdly, one of the questions I'm getting from bystanders is "Of course, this e-bike is derestricted, isn't it" :D
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Stefan with your illegally derestricted bike you are walking talking living proof that 250w isn't always enough.. :D
 
I don't know the history (especially in the EU) but aren't most motor systems used in both the US and EU? I know lots of European ebikes use the same motor/controller as their US spec bikes (shimano E800, Bosch performance line, etc). I guess they could restrict power output like they do speed, but I'd guess its the same hardware and they just set the speed cutoff to whatever the local laws say.

I'm guessing theres a lot of wiggle room in that "250 watts continuous" rating. I assume thats why so many motor manufacturers are advertising their power in torque figures instead of watts (watts make more sense since thats how most cyclists who train based on power data use, so its more commonly used in the cycling world). Don't want to call attention to the fact that 80nm of torque is actually like 700 watts of power when you're supposed to be 250. :p
 
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