Why did the EU choose 250W?

[Mr. Coffee]

Not really. Oslo? Stockholm? Scandinavia proper (Norway and Sweden) is not flat!
Now, let's talk Central Europe: Alps (including Dinaric), Carpathians, Sudeten, Vosges and many other mountain ranges.
(If we visit south of Europe, it becomes very hilly: Pyrenees, Apenines, Balkans and let us talk Greece, for instance).

I agree to your general thought: "Why should Europeans need more than 250 W nominal?" The e-MTB is the European thing. The first modern e-MTB ever was conceived in Switzerland for an American company by name Specialized

Well, I did say "nearly all". And yes, from the perspective of someone on the West Coast of North America, Stockholm is pretty darned flat, though Oslo is not.

Certainly Warsaw, Berlin, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris, Toulouse, and Bordeaux are very flat cities.

Yes, there are mountain ranges in Northern Europe and some hilly countryside, but the urban areas are, again from the perspective of someone from the West Coast, mostly in flat places. I mean, Los Angeles basically is bisected by a mountain range, and on the northern edge of Vancouver there are multiple ski areas (though not really great skiing, but it is still remarkable that you can take a city bus to a tram and cut some turns).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Well, I did say "nearly all". And yes, from the perspective of someone on the West Coast of North America, Stockholm is pretty darned flat, though Oslo is not.

Certainly Warsaw, Berlin, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris, Toulouse, and Bordeaux are very flat cities.

Yes, there are mountain ranges in Northern Europe and some hilly countryside, but the urban areas are, again from the perspective of someone from the West Coast, mostly in flat places. I mean, Los Angeles basically is bisected by a mountain range, and on the northern edge of Vancouver there are multiple ski areas (though not really great skiing, but it is still remarkable that you can take a city bus to a tram and cut some turns).

Mr Coffee, you are right. However cycling in Europe (except the Netherlands and Denmark) means much more than riding in big cities. (Another fact is the distances in Europe are far shorter than they are in North America. We define distances here in km, not in hours of driving )

 

[TForan]

Some people prefer driving a Prius. Some don't. I just came back from a ride on my grossly over powered bike and every time I ride it , I just love the power, when I want to use it. I demo bikes from time to time and I always feel like I'm on a children's bike and I'm so used to 3.5 inch tires, that I couldn't go back to the skinny ones. Just buy what suits you and don't worry about what anyone else rides.

 

[RunForTheHills]

Mr Coffee, you are right. However cycling in Europe (except the Netherlands and Denmark) means much more than riding in big cities. (Another fact is the distances in Europe are far shorter than they are in North America. We define distances here in km, not in hours of driving )

Hours of driving in Los Angeles may only be a few km. One freeway accident can mess up your whole day.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hours of driving in Los Angeles may only be a few km. One freeway accident can mess up your whole day.

Is it practical to ride e-bike in LA to avoid traffic jams?

 

[rich c]

Just guessing but the average fit cyclist can put out about 250-300 watts of human power.

 

[RunForTheHills]

Is it practical to ride e-bike in LA to avoid traffic jams?

Sure, although some routes and areas are safer than others. There are a few bike trails along riverbeds and you may be able to incorporate them into your commute. I am in Southern California, but I don't live in Los Angeles.

 

[Ken M]

Because we can ride e-bikes in all European national forests while you Americans cannot, Law. Or, can you?
Because distances in Europe are not that big as they are in the United States or Canada.
Because EU mid-drive motor e-bikes are perfect climbers.
Because we Europeans are not cowboys And we know what the derailleur is made for (because most of Europeans drive manual transmission cars).

My Specialized and Giant mid-motors are 250 W nominal but they pump up to 520 W peak power, and there is also drive-train for climbing ability or speed. And yes, my 45 km/h Vado is superior to U.S. Class 3 Vado 5.0 in terms of componentry and safety features.

Don't take me wrong as I really like some of your points. I live in the US and love manual transmission cars but I'm an outcast in this lazy "when are the Kardashians on" mindset society.

I own both Yamaha and Bosch Haibikes with 250W "rated" mid-drives and while I really like the ebikes I do not like that I can not sustain 32kph up even say a 5% slope unless I put in super-human effort. When commuting say 30km+ to work on an ebike time is money and average speed is important and as a transportation tool 250W just falls short unless you live in a totally flat city. I can honestly tell you honestly that the intention of the 250W EU limit was derived to keep low cost chinese hubs from flooding the market and slowing the adoption of expensive development mid-drives (it was an anti-competitive regulation).

I think it's very sad that Europeans are OK with the fact that insurance and registration is required on any ebike that assists higher than 25kph when you can drive at 200kph+ on the autobahn. That fact is why I'm very anti 3-class harmonization legislation here in the US pushed by People for Bikes.

 

[jabberwocky]

Just guessing but the average fit cyclist can put out about 250-300 watts of human power.

For average power over a long ride thats pretty high. Over a shorter distance, sure.

A very fit friend did a hilly endurance ride recently (130 miles with 15k feet of climbing) and his average power over the whole ride was 170watts. His peak was over 1200watts, but thats instantaneous power and he only held it for a few seconds. Dedicated road riders can certainly get higher than that, especially on more normal ride distances, but if you can sustain 250 watts for a whole ride you are a very fit individual, and probably well above average.

For reference, a pro tour rider on a serious climb will average 350 watts or so. Maybe 375.

 

[Ken M]

Just guessing but the average fit cyclist can put out about 250-300 watts of human power.

That would be a fairly high continuous power level for most riders. The world record for 1 hour is around 330W I believe and that guy is superhuman.

 

[jabberwocky]

For reference:

Rigoberto Uran’s power output for stage nine of the Tour de France analysed

Uran’s stage winning power data analysed by Training Peaks

www.cyclingweekly.com

Over the five hours plus stage, covering 181km and over 4000m of climbing Uran averaged 35.4kph and 219 watts power output.

Uran climbed the first 5.4km of the Mont du Chat with the thinning GC group in 19.5 minutes at an average 332w. When Fabio Aru put in an attack in the last 3km, Uran upped his power output to 378w for over eight minutes to keep up, with a peak of 666w. His cadence averaged 81rpm in a 39/30 gear ratio.

 

[Ken M]

For reference:

Rigoberto Uran’s power output for stage nine of the Tour de France analysed

Uran’s stage winning power data analysed by Training Peaks

www.cyclingweekly.com

In the EU that level of performance requires insurance and registration according to their ebike laws. Woohoo...anything over 25kph is a motorized vehicle in Europe....so sad but hey if no one stands up and says no the state and insurance companies will line their pockets.

...and yet so many here still don't agree with me that the federal definition is far superior than the 3-class "lobbied" by People for Bikes (with pretty much all that money flowing in from Europe to neuter our ebikes as they did there).

 

[WattsUpDude]

Stefan with your illegally derestricted bike you are walking talking living proof that 250w isn't always enough..

It's not the wattage that isn't enough...it's the pre-programmed speed limit that isn't enough. The fact that my 250w nominal Class 1 bike can be transformed into a machine that's capable of Class 3+ speeds with a Speedbox is proof that the bike and electronics are much more capable than the artificially-set speed limit set by bureaucracy.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@MartsEbike: my 45 km/h Vado is perfectly legal, registered, holding a number plate, insured and all. And it proves that 250 W nominal and 520 W peak power is enough.

On last Sunday, I led a group ride and completed 157 km (2 miles short of Imperial Century) on that day, riding my Vado.

 

[jabberwocky]

It's not the wattage that isn't enough...it's the pre-programmed speed limit that isn't enough. The fact that my 250w nominal Class 1 bike can be transformed into a machine that's capable of Class 3+ speeds with a Speedbox is proof that the bike and electronics are much more capable than the artificially-set speed limit set by bureaucracy.

Yeah, my point is that 250 continuous watts may not sound like a lot, but its actually quite a bit of power compared to your average cyclist. The cutoff speed is the real limiting factor. Motor wattage is super fuzzy anyway (How do you measure? Theoretical? Actual? Average over how long? At the motor? At the crank?). I'd bet that all the major mid drive motors are capable of well over 250 watts of continuous power.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'd bet that all the major mid drive motors are capable of well over 250 watts of continuous power.

Examples:

• Specialized 1.2s: 520 W peak power
• Specialized 1.3: 550 W peak power
• Yamaha PW-X2: 520 W peak power.

I only listed motors, for which I found data (and was interested in).

Interestingly, both nominal and peak power of Specialized SL 1.1. motor is 240 W only. As many of you know, I have bad legs. As it is hot now where I live, I rode Vado SL to buy some soda (it turned out to be 9.1 kg/20 lbs carried in a large backpack). Just for fun, I set the Eco level to 25%. BLEVo was telling me I was pumping around 140 W with my legs while motor (or, battery) responded with mere 30 W!

See the full data now, especially power consumption from bike's battery:

 

[jabberwocky]

@MartsEbike: my 45 km/h Vado is perfectly legal, registered, holding a number plate, insured and all. And it proves that 250 W nominal and 520 W peak power is enough.

On last Sunday, I led a group ride and completed 157 km (2 miles short of Imperial Century) on that day, riding my Vado.

Daaaaaamn. Almost 100 miles out of the Vado is impressive. Extra battery/extender or all on the stock battery?

 

[MartsEbike]

@MartsEbike: my 45 km/h Vado is perfectly legal, registered, holding a number plate, insured and all. And it proves that 250 W nominal and 520 W peak power is enough.

On last Sunday, I led a group ride and completed 157 km (2 miles short of Imperial Century) on that day, riding my Vado.

Stefan my good man, you must think I'm new around here... I know you have a derestricted bike too

 

[linklemming]

@MartsEbike: my 45 km/h Vado is perfectly legal, registered, holding a number plate, insured and all. And it proves that 250 W nominal and 520 W peak power is enough.

On last Sunday, I led a group ride and completed 157 km (2 miles short of Imperial Century) on that day, riding my Vado.

All that proves is that it works....for you.

You dont speak for anyone but yourself no matter how much you repeat yourself, quote euro bike laws or insult others who disagree with you.

I have an Brose Speed Pedelec ebike (iZIP moda e3) which is the same performance wise to a Brose Vado. I could make the argument that it is enough but that would be silly. Its the lowest power of my 4 speed pedelec bikes and easily passed here by murica cowboys on cheap chinese higher power hub bikes.

I pass Brose Vados all the time on my 3 other speed pedelecs (Juiced CCX, 2 1500W DIY bikes (BBSHD and GMAC))

Agreed that 250w rated bikes (other than Vado SL) are rated around 500-600W, thats pretty obvious to anyone who has ridden bikes that show power output.

Congrats on the Vado SL, with 70w human power, its 250W limit is perfect for you

 

[jabberwocky]

Examples:

• Specialized 1.2s: 520 W peak power
• Specialized 1.3: 550 W peak power
• Yamaha PW-X2: 520 W peak power.

I'd be willing to bet that all of those are extremely conservative ratings is my point. Legally they need to be 250w so thats what the spec sheet says, but based on things like advertised torque and how quickly they can burn through battery wattage I'm pretty sure that they can do way more than 250w nominal.