Why aren't there quick chargers for ebike?

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I believe the info by Electric Cyclery is wrong. Nothing on the Yamaha Ebike website indictates fast charging capability. Link: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/technology/display-controller-battery/

Basically, the Yamaha website says the same thing my 2016 Haibike/Yamaha Instructions booklet states that came with my Haibike Full FatSix (Yamaha PW drive): It will take 3.5 hours of charging to bring back a depleted battery to 75% charge (three red lights flashing on the battery charge indicator, one light out). In total, it will take 4 hours to get to 100% charge. The Yamaha X9 service manual makes no mention at all of "fast charging".

The Yamaha External 500wh battery is backwards compatible with older Yamaha ebike drives, like my PW, as well as fitting the latest PW-X2.

The charger is the same as it ever was since the PW came onto the market. It's a 4 amp charger.

My H-Bike came with the older 400wh battery. That battery can be used on any Civante as it can be used on my H-Bike.....it will even work on a BH E-Motion Yamaha PW or PW-X powered ebike.

Giant runs a Yamaha edrive, they call it SyncDrive. However, they have a proprietary motor mapping, so the standard Yamaha battery very well will not work on a Giant Yamaha; let alone, fit on the downtube.

Hope this helps clears things up.

 

[mclewis1]

McLewis, for some reason, Yamaha never mentioned the quick charge feature on the older models. It only just mentioned it on the Civante. Do you own a Yamaha ebike (Wabash, Urban Rush Torc, etc)? If yes, can you confirm that your battery can be charged 0-75% in 45 minutes? I’m wondering if the BMS (battery management system) on the battery in the Civante is the same as the older models.

No, I don't own a Yamaha. I built a nice ebike from a Surly Bridge Club (a very versatile steel frame touring bike) and a Grin Technologies RTR kit, and use it as an around town grocery getter, and commuter bike.

I'm also really curious about that Yamaha charger. On the surface the numbers don't seem to add up, but I'm no expert so I don't know exactly what Yamaha is doing. It would indeed be good to hear from someone who actually has that bike/charger combination.

 

[Ebiker01]

My Yamaha Civantes’ quick charger can fill my 500wh battery from 0-80% in one hour.

That's a lie . Do the math and you will
realize that !

 

[Asher]

The actual need for quick charging is highly variable. For most people using an e-bike for transport, it's not really necessary because range is typically several times typical daily travel, so you charge it overnight. Typical battery size is increasing, from 400 to 500 to 625+, so there's even less need for faster charging now.

The real need for quick charging is where either you don't have a space for overnight charging, such as apartment dwellers with electric cars without onsite chargers, or people whose daily travel exceeds that of their battery, such as couriers/delivery riders or perhaps recreational mountain bikers.

The technical aspects are beyond me currently, except that it degraded your battery for little advantage except couriers - who themselves might instead subsist on alternating batteries if they have a home hub they can easily return to mid shift, provided the batteries are removable.

That said, I guess if youre riding a bike with a small battery and/or a battery guzzler, it could be an issue.

 

[Oski1997]

I believe the info by Electric Cyclery is wrong. Nothing on the Yamaha Ebike website indictates fast charging capability. Link: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/technology/display-controller-battery/

Basically, the Yamaha website says the same thing my 2016 Haibike/Yamaha Instructions booklet states that came with my Haibike Full FatSix (Yamaha PW drive): It will take 3.5 hours of charging to bring back a depleted battery to 75% charge (three red lights flashing on the battery charge indicator, one light out). In total, it will take 4 hours to get to 100% charge. The Yamaha X9 service manual makes no mention at all of "fast charging".

The Yamaha External 500wh battery is backwards compatible with older Yamaha ebike drives, like my PW, as well as fitting the latest PW-X2.

The charger is the same as it ever was since the PW came onto the market. It's a 4 amp charger.

My H-Bike came with the older 400wh battery. That battery can be used on any Civante as it can be used on my H-Bike.....it will even work on a BH E-Motion Yamaha PW or PW-X powered ebike.

Giant runs a Yamaha edrive, they call it SyncDrive. However, they have a proprietary motor mapping, so the standard Yamaha battery very well will not work on a Giant Yamaha; let alone, fit on the downtube.

Hope this helps clears things up.

Thanks for this information Mike. I was looking through some old notes where I wrote down the charging speed for my battery. Last month, I was able to charge my battery from 30% to 75% in one hour (8:04pm - 9:04pm). I looked at the Yamaha website and found the FAQs page that states: “the battery will reach 75% charge in approximately 2 hours”. The last 25% takes 2 hours because it “is completed on a slower cycle that is best for battery life longevity”.

Frequently Asked Questions FAQ | Yamaha E Bikes

Frequently asked questions about Yamaha e-bikes. How do I determine the right frame size for me? How fast will my Yamaha Power Assist Bicycle go? Do Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles have a throttle?

www.yamahabicycles.com

 

[Oski1997]

That's a lie . Do the math and you will
realize that !

Ebiker, I stand corrected. I found some old notes and saw that I was only able to charge my battery from 30% to 75% in one hour (8:04pm - 9:04pm). The Yamaha website says it can be charged 0-75% in two hours: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/faq/

 

[Ebiker01]

Has to do with the charger wattage , amps and battery amps.

Assuming the 500wh battery is 36volts . 500:36= 13.8ah. 13.8ah:4ah(charger amps)= 3.47hours.

If the Grin Satator charger would work on this battery you could have charge at 6.8ah w/o any issues ! Even @8ah the max. rate that the Satiator works.

The reason that charge rate is closer to 4hours and not 3.47h it's due to the slower cycle in the last 25% portion of charging.

It is common in the Ev sector to amplify either the range or the charging times in order to entice customers.

 

[Oski1997]

Has to do with the charger wattage , amps and battery amps.

It is common in the Ev sector to amplify either the range or the charging times in order to entice customers.

I try not to discharge my battery lower than 30% and not higher than 80% bc I want them to last longer (that’s one of the reasons I bought an extra battery to carry on the bike). But I’m wanting to test the charging time from 10% to 70% to see how long it takes. Do you think if I do it just a handful of times in the life of the battery, it’ll still affect the capacity of the battery? I don’t want to injure the capacity just for curiosity’s sake. The reason I’m choosing up to 70% is because I think I remember the charging started to slow down at 70%.

 

[Oski1997]

I believe the info by Electric Cyclery is wrong. Nothing on the Yamaha Ebike website indictates fast charging capability. Link: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/technology/display-controller-battery/

Basically, the Yamaha website says the same thing my 2016 Haibike/Yamaha Instructions booklet states that came with my Haibike Full FatSix (Yamaha PW drive): It will take 3.5 hours of charging to bring back a depleted battery to 75% charge (three red lights flashing on the battery charge indicator, one light out). In total, it will take 4 hours to get to 100% charge. The Yamaha X9 service manual makes no mention at all of "fast charging".

The Yamaha External 500wh battery is backwards compatible with older Yamaha ebike drives, like my PW, as well as fitting the latest PW-X2.

The charger is the same as it ever was since the PW came onto the market. It's a 4 amp charger.

My H-Bike came with the older 400wh battery. That battery can be used on any Civante as it can be used on my H-Bike.....it will even work on a BH E-Motion Yamaha PW or PW-X powered ebike.

Giant runs a Yamaha edrive, they call it SyncDrive. However, they have a proprietary motor mapping, so the standard Yamaha battery very well will not work on a Giant Yamaha; let alone, fit on the downtube.

Hope this helps clears things up.

Mike, do you know why the Yamaha battery on my Civante ebike charges 0-75% in 2 hours when the Haibike takes 3.5 hours? If I was able to charge my battery 30-75% in one hour, does that mean it would take an hour to charge from 0-30%? If yes, does that mean batteries slow charge at the beginning AND at the end of their charging?

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Mike, do you know why the Yamaha battery on my Civante ebike charges 0-75% in 2 hours when the Haibike takes 3.5 hours? If I was able to charge my battery 30-75% in one hour, does that mean it would take an hour to charge from 0-30%? If yes, does that mean batteries slow charge at the beginning AND at the end of their charging?

Oski, I've actually taken my Haibike down to single digit charge % remaining (according to my LCD display), but those times were very few and far in between and usually happened when I went on a long distance run, while carrying just the battery on the down tube and no spare. I've taken it down to single digit charge % remaining on both the original 400wh battery as well as one or two of my spare 500wh batteries.

In both the 400 and 500 batteries, single digit charge times from that low of a battery % remaining is about the same, 4 hours give or take, in total. But again, I take it down to single digits but only on a rare occassion as I don't want to hurt the long term health of the battery. Usually, I charge the battery after a 20 mile plus ride, with about 50% charge remaining as this is my usual, standard daily ride (not lately, not in this polar vortex we are in!)

I really can't answer the questions you pose, but just want to reinforce the fact that our Yamaha chargers are 4 amp chargers, that they aren't considered fast chargers like some of those 8 ampers out on the market today. Also just want to state that the external 400 and 500 wh batteries are interchangeable on the PW series motors as well as accepting the OEM Yamaha charger. The charge rate is all determined by the built-in BMS in the battery. Before charging after a cold day's ride, let the battery internal temp come up to room temperature; ditto if the battery has been sitting out on the bike, exposed directly to the hot sun.

My H-Bike battery instruction charging info was published in a time when the only battery running the PW motor was the 400wh.

I have some 12,350 miles on the H-Bike now. I alternate batteries on occasion; no particular manner in doing it. I'll charge the battery to 100% after each ride as I usually ride the bike the following day. I'll let the battery sit unused for days on end, all cardinal sins by those folks who know battery and extended battery life tips better then I do! All 3 batteries still maintain 100% battery integrity according to their BMS; which is a testament to how robust the Yamaha drive system and battery systems are.

Be careful with the charger's plug as I've read where a few have been broken by careless owners. There are no repair parts should it break; so the only alternative is to buy a brand new charger.

Good luck and have fun with that bike!

 

[Oski1997]

Oski, I've actually taken my Haibike down to single digit charge % remaining (according to my LCD display), but those times were very few and far in between and usually happened when I went on a long distance run, while carrying just the battery on the down tube and no spare. I've taken it down to single digit charge % remaining on both the original 400wh battery as well as one or two of my spare 500wh batteries.

In both the 400 and 500 batteries, single digit charge times from that low of a battery % remaining is about the same, 4 hours give or take, in total. But again, I take it down to single digits but only on a rare occassion as I don't want to hurt the long term health of the battery. Usually, I charge the battery after a 20 mile plus ride, with about 50% charge remaining as this is my usual, standard daily ride (not lately, not in this polar vortex we are in!)

I really can't answer the questions you pose, but just want to reinforce the fact that our Yamaha chargers are 4 amp chargers, that they aren't considered fast chargers like some of those 8 ampers out on the market today. Also just want to state that the external 400 and 500 wh batteries are interchangeable on the PW series motors as well as accepting the OEM Yamaha charger. The charge rate is all determined by the built-in BMS in the battery. Before charging after a cold day's ride, let the battery internal temp come up to room temperature; ditto if the battery has been sitting out on the bike, exposed directly to the hot sun.

My H-Bike battery instruction charging info was published in a time when the only battery running the PW motor was the 400wh.

I have some 12,350 miles on the H-Bike now. I alternate batteries on occasion; no particular manner in doing it. I'll charge the battery to 100% after each ride as I usually ride the bike the following day. I'll let the battery sit unused for days on end, all cardinal sins by those folks who know battery and extended battery life tips better then I do! All 3 batteries still maintain 100% battery integrity according to their BMS; which is a testament to how robust the Yamaha drive system and battery systems are.

Be careful with the charger's plug as I've read where a few have been broken by careless owners. There are no repair parts should it break; so the only alternative is to buy a brand new charger.

Good luck and have fun with that bike!

Oh wow, after 12,350 miles of 100% charge (left full overnight) and single digit discharge and STILL maintain 100% battery integrity is INCREDIBLE. I was wondering if I should discharge my battery to 10% to time how long it takes to charge to 70% but wasn’t sure if the integrity of my battery would be compromised. I now know it will be ok. I bought a 2nd battery so I only use them from 30% to 80% (I carry the 2nd battery charged only to 80% on my bike when I ride) so I can double their charge cycles. I figure if I buy two batteries now at $1,800, they’ll last me as long as if I bought 3 and used them fully (from 100% to 0% each). This will save me $900 In the long run. My rides are usually 35-50 miles. I’ve tested the range of my battery and I know I can safely ride 50 miles on one battery using the two highest settings (50 miles uses 85% = from 100% to 15%). To save the cycles on my battery I use two batteries so I only have to charge them up to 80% and never have to run them down below 30%.

 

[Oski1997]

Oski, I've actually taken my Haibike down to single digit charge % remaining (according to my LCD display), but those times were very few and far in between and usually happened when I went on a long distance run, while carrying just the battery on the down tube and no spare. I've taken it down to single digit charge % remaining on both the original 400wh battery as well as one or two of my spare 500wh batteries.

In both the 400 and 500 batteries, single digit charge times from that low of a battery % remaining is about the same, 4 hours give or take, in total. But again, I take it down to single digits but only on a rare occassion as I don't want to hurt the long term health of the battery. Usually, I charge the battery after a 20 mile plus ride, with about 50% charge remaining as this is my usual, standard daily ride (not lately, not in this polar vortex we are in!)

I really can't answer the questions you pose, but just want to reinforce the fact that our Yamaha chargers are 4 amp chargers, that they aren't considered fast chargers like some of those 8 ampers out on the market today. Also just want to state that the external 400 and 500 wh batteries are interchangeable on the PW series motors as well as accepting the OEM Yamaha charger. The charge rate is all determined by the built-in BMS in the battery. Before charging after a cold day's ride, let the battery internal temp come up to room temperature; ditto if the battery has been sitting out on the bike, exposed directly to the hot sun.

My H-Bike battery instruction charging info was published in a time when the only battery running the PW motor was the 400wh.

I have some 12,350 miles on the H-Bike now. I alternate batteries on occasion; no particular manner in doing it. I'll charge the battery to 100% after each ride as I usually ride the bike the following day. I'll let the battery sit unused for days on end, all cardinal sins by those folks who know battery and extended battery life tips better then I do! All 3 batteries still maintain 100% battery integrity according to their BMS; which is a testament to how robust the Yamaha drive system and battery systems are.

Be careful with the charger's plug as I've read where a few have been broken by careless owners. There are no repair parts should it break; so the only alternative is to buy a brand new charger.

Good luck and have fun with that bike!

Mike, did you know you can use an indoor “dumb” trainer (Costco sells one for $70) with your ebike to use Zwift, Rouvy, Sufferfest, etc because you’re bike has speed/cadence sensors? For only $70 you can continue to use your ebike during this snowy season.

https://www.costco.com/sportneer-unibody-steel-bike-stand--.product.100694761.html

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Oski, I personally would recommend you just get out there and enjoy that bike & not get hung up on the charging time!

I charge my batteries to 100%, allowing the charger to shut off after the cells have been all balanced (this is another cardinal sin that I violate, charging to 100%. I figure if I want to go long distance, starting out with a battery at 100% will give me some near 40 plus miles on my fat tired ebike). You can charge to 75-85% then discontinue charging. Then, when you want to go on a ride, charge the battery to 100%. I believe from what I have read, this will give you the longest battery life.

There may be something to be said about the battery not getting balanced at the tail end of the charging cycle, should you disconnect while reaching 85%.

THE battery guru to talk to would be Ravi Kempaiah, who is on this forum quite often.

In the past 2 years or so, after charging that 400wh battery to 100% after each and every ride, that I find the battery now self-discharges about 4% if the battery sits after 5-7 days. Not a big deal for me, I'll just put it back on the charger before going off on a ride, topping it to 100% and BMS charge shut-off. I believe this is just part of the battery aging process.

PS: I don't think my fatbike would fit inside that trainer's rear roller! Winter and snow is tailor made for fatbiking. I've just been hesitant to go out with the ice, snow locking in my riding trail solid while the road salt on the roadways I pedal on in which to get to them have been a mess. Just don't want that corrosive stuff on my bike.

Have fun!

 

[Ebiker01]

I have some 12,350 miles on the H-Bike now. I alternate batteries on occasion; no particular manner in doing it. I'll charge the battery to 100% after each ride as I usually ride the bike the following day. I'll let the battery sit unused for days on end, all cardinal sins by those folks who know battery and extended battery life tips better then I do! All 3 batteries still maintain 100% battery integrity according to their BMS;

That is false. Try to charge to 90% and maybe top it off to 100% 1hour before the ride.

Your simple display will always show 100% or full 5bars when charging to 100%.
Meaning 100% of 80-85% of what's left is charged


So that 100% after 12.000miles is probably 53.4 or 53.2 Volts not 54.6 volts (assuming the battery is 48volts ?? i don't know ) as when battery is new or full.

If the battery is 36volts 100% is 42volts

Check with a multimeter after a full charge and report with the numbers.

I would be really surprised if you get 54.6volts . It's impossible, it would mean that the Battery did almost 500 cycles without any depreciation.

DON'T use a multimeter on an ebike battery if don't know how to use it. Meaning only 1-2mm max. of the probe's metal contacts should be exposed.

Battery voltages.

For a 48 volt battery what does 20% and 80% equate to in volts? Thanks. I don't think it's simple math which I can do.

electricbikereview.com

 

[Ebiker01]

does that mean batteries slow charge at the beginning AND at the end of their charging?

No, only at the 20% end. Voltage would be going down as the battery complete the charge .Abou 1ah rate @ 95-97% , 0.2ah @100% balancing the cells which is not needed , maybe 1x/6months.

- from 0 to 80% or 54volts (for 48volt system) would Be the fast charge part.

There are tables with the charging rates online , I know for my battery in my charger the voltage rates.

 

[Ebiker01]

Do you think if I do it just a handful of times in the life of the battery, it’ll still affect the capacity of the battery?

maybe 0.2-0.4%.

 

[Ebiker01]

Battery voltages.

For a 48 volt battery what does 20% and 80% equate to in volts? Thanks. I don't think it's simple math which I can do.

electricbikereview.com

 

[Oski1997]

No, only at the 20% end. Voltage would be going down as the battery complete the charge .Abou 1ah rate @ 95-97% , 0.2ah @100% balancing the cells which is not needed , maybe 1x/6months.

- from 0 to 80% or 54volts (for 48volt system) would Be the fast charge part.

There are tables with the charging rates online , I know for my battery in my charger the voltage rates.

I was wondering how many times a year I should fill to 100% to balance the cells. I think I’ll do it 3x per year (just to be safe). Thanks Ebiker!

 

[FlatSix911]

I was wondering how many times a year I should fill to 100% to balance the cells. I think I’ll do it 3x per year (just to be safe). Thanks Ebiker!

You really don't need to charge to 100% to balance the cells on a Yamaha OEM pack with a sophisticated BMS.
Our resident expert, Ravi has confirmed this a number of times on various EBR battery threads. Hope this helps.

 

[Oski1997]

You really don't need to charge to 100% to balance the cells on a Yamaha OEM pack with a sophisticated BMS.
Our resident expert, Ravi has confirmed this a number of times on various EBR battery threads. Hope this helps.

Oh wow, I didn’t know that. Thanks FlatSix