Why are Bosch motors only 250 watts?
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
It is not 100% correct statement.
EU law allows up to 4 kW, up to 45 km/h e-bikes under the condition that:
- Both motor and e-bike manufacturer can prove above any doubt the product meets the demands of road-worthiness required from a moped (Certificate of Compliance)
- The owner of such S-Pedelec will accept and follow all requirements demanded from a moped rider.
Bosch and Brose are the only manufacturers of EU compliant Speed mid-motors and yet they chose to stay at 250 W nominal. Why? Because (combined with higher peak power) it is enough to provide a relatively lightweight motor and battery of good range. And only a few of e-bike brands took the risk and cost of making and certifying mid-motor S-Pedelecs. Stromer is -- I think -- the only company that took the pain to prove their Direct Drive hub-motor e-bikes were EU compliant with "moped" specs.
It is not the EU law will change and suddenly Europe would be flooded with the Chinese crap.
Here is a good example:
U.S Class 3 Vado 5.0 is just the EU 25 km/h Vado with 28 mph speed limit set in the firmware. EU L1e-B Vado 6.0 is a very different e-bike using a Speed motor and packed with tons of certified safety stuff, starting with Supernova M99 Pro headlight that is always on...
MartsEbike
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Without me knowing, it seems you are the early protester I spoke of... Basically you've just outed yourself as a hypocrite
... I assume you wasn't forced to reply, or did it touch a nerve and you just had too?In any case, your admission came faster than I expected, they've not even changed the laws yet
PedalUma
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- Petaluma, CA
Without me knowing, it seems you are the early protester I spoke of... Basically you've just outed yourself as a hypocrite
In any case, your admission came faster than I expected, they've not even changed the laws yet
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Alaskan
Well-Known Member
@MartsEbike it must be hard going through life so clueless
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
I don't need more power I try to use less and less as I get stronger. it feels good to use as much of my muscle as I can. I have been getting 500 to 600 watts starting off and popping a little wheelie. only a few short really steep hills would benefit with more torque but I still get up them. unless I am feeing really sickI never use the highest levels of assist it feels so unnatural unless I want to go 28mph.
rich c
Well-Known Member
Fine tuning your trolling techniques? LOLWithout me knowing, it seems you are the early protester I spoke of... Basically you've just outed yourself as a hypocrite
In any case, your admission came faster than I expected, they've not even changed the laws yet
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
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- USA
Actually, thats not correct, either. However in Poland the licensing and insurance laws may make some of that correct as those do vary between member states.
In the EU, allowable types of 'ebikes' are classified as L1e-A 'powered cycles' and those are the 250w, 25 km/h throttle-less pedelecs we all know. L1e-A's do in fact only need a CoC (Certificate of Compliance) which is a manufacturer attestation (a simple piece of paper) issued by the manufacturer that claims the bike to be in compliance with all relevant EU laws pertaining to that bicycle's classification. This simple manufacturer statement is a HUGE deal when considering the next class. which is what @Stefan Mikes was talking about:
The 4kw / 45 km/h class is the L1e-B 'Speed Pedelec'. An L1e-B is not considered an ebike or a bicycle. It is regulated as a moped, which means restrictions on where it can ride (no bike lanes, generally) and usually requires a license plate and insurance (these things so far may vary from one member country to another). But the HUGE difference is a CoC is not accepted for the L1e-B.
Instead, they are subjected to something known as 'Type Approval'. What is that? Well, every single component on the bike must be tested for compliance via a special - and very expensive - certification process. The certification must be performed by a specially licensed independent facility. If a device is subject to Type Approval, the manufacturer's attestation of compliance is not accepted. Not only is Type Approval an onerous and expensive process, if you change the parts on the device, it requires re-certification. Think about how components can shift from bike to bike during a production run as supply chains flex. None of that flies on a product subject to Type Approval. The last I looked, a Type Approval certification ran in the ballpark of 40-50,000 Euro.
There is also a requirement known as Factor 4 which is not mandatory. Yet. Factor 4 states that an L1e-B's assist system cannot provide more than 4x the muscle input power. Factor 4 has a complicated history and I'm hopeful that enough time has passed since its proposal that it will never make it into the formal regulations.
European Commission Confirmed Categorization Speed E-Bikes
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Commission has used this year's transition period for the new e-bike type-approval procedure to shed light on a number of unclear issues. One major issue was the categorization of different types of speed e-bikes.
www.bike-eu.com
LEVA-EU makes case for softening speed-pedelec rules in Europe
European light electric vehicle representative LEVA-EU has made a case alongside manufacturers for a reclassification on speed-pedelec legislation.
cyclingindustry.news
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
m@robertson:
Although the facts you have given are basically correct, you don't live in Europe and might only have a foggy idea how things actually work in the Union. Although some country e-bike laws are different (for example, a valid, registered, insured L1e-B can be ridden by a holder of a driving license in Denmark on any road including bike paths; while only riding with traffic is allowed in other EU countries), the e-bike rules are pretty consistent throughout the EU.
The Type Approval document you are talking about has the formal name: "EU Certificate of Conformity", and I can show you one issued by Specialized. The same CoC, or Type Approval document is used for anything motorized: motorbikes, cars, or trucks. It is called EU CoC though.
The L1e-A class, that is, 25 km/h, 250 W-1 kW e-bike has been largely ignored by European national jurisdictions. Generally, L1e-A is a moped. Therefore, a L1e-A cargo e-bike needs to be registered the same way as a moped. (Still, 1 kW is not 4).
To summarize: the fact L1e-A is defined in the Union law doesn't mean the class was adopted in national law of most of EU countries. And that is not going to happen fast. Some countries still struggle with defining e-scooters in their law.
P.S. If you quote the EU law, I might quote the U.S. Federal law and then ask how it comes so many Americans ride > 750 W monsters. (It would be a rhetorical question of course).
Although the facts you have given are basically correct, you don't live in Europe and might only have a foggy idea how things actually work in the Union. Although some country e-bike laws are different (for example, a valid, registered, insured L1e-B can be ridden by a holder of a driving license in Denmark on any road including bike paths; while only riding with traffic is allowed in other EU countries), the e-bike rules are pretty consistent throughout the EU.
The Type Approval document you are talking about has the formal name: "EU Certificate of Conformity", and I can show you one issued by Specialized. The same CoC, or Type Approval document is used for anything motorized: motorbikes, cars, or trucks. It is called EU CoC though.
The L1e-A class, that is, 25 km/h, 250 W-1 kW e-bike has been largely ignored by European national jurisdictions. Generally, L1e-A is a moped. Therefore, a L1e-A cargo e-bike needs to be registered the same way as a moped. (Still, 1 kW is not 4).
To summarize: the fact L1e-A is defined in the Union law doesn't mean the class was adopted in national law of most of EU countries. And that is not going to happen fast. Some countries still struggle with defining e-scooters in their law.
P.S. If you quote the EU law, I might quote the U.S. Federal law and then ask how it comes so many Americans ride > 750 W monsters. (It would be a rhetorical question of course).
Actually, thats not correct, either. However in Poland the licensing and insurance laws may make some of that correct as those do vary between member states.
In the EU, allowable types of 'ebikes' are classified as L1e-A 'powered cycles' and those are the 250w, 25 km/h throttle-less pedelecs we all know. L1e-A's do in fact only need a CoC (Certificate of Compliance) which is a manufacturer attestation (a simple piece of paper) issued by the manufacturer that claims the bike to be in compliance with all relevant EU laws pertaining to that bicycle's classification. This simple manufacturer statement is a HUGE deal when considering the next class. which is what @Stefan Mikes was talking about:
The 4kw / 45 km/h class is the L1e-B 'Speed Pedelec'. An L1e-B is not considered an ebike or a bicycle. It is regulated as a moped, which means restrictions on where it can ride (no bike lanes, generally) and usually requires a license plate and insurance (these things so far may vary from one member country to another). But the HUGE difference is a CoC is not accepted for the L1e-B.
Instead, they are subjected to something known as 'Type Approval'. What is that? Well, every single component on the bike must be tested for compliance via a special - and very expensive - certification process. The certification must be performed by a specially licensed independent facility. If a device is subject to Type Approval, the manufacturer's attestation of compliance is not accepted. Not only is Type Approval an onerous and expensive process, if you change the parts on the device, it requires re-certification. Think about how components can shift from bike to bike during a production run as supply chains flex. None of that flies on a product subject to Type Approval. The last I looked, a Type Approval certification ran in the ballpark of 40-50,000 Euro.
There is also a requirement known as Factor 4 which is not mandatory. Yet. Factor 4 states that an L1e-B's assist system cannot provide more than 4x the muscle input power. Factor 4 has a complicated history and I'm hopeful that enough time has passed since its proposal that it will never make it into the formal regulations.
European Commission Confirmed Categorization Speed E-Bikes
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Commission has used this year's transition period for the new e-bike type-approval procedure to shed light on a number of unclear issues. One major issue was the categorization of different types of speed e-bikes.
LEVA-EU makes case for softening speed-pedelec rules in Europe
European light electric vehicle representative LEVA-EU has made a case alongside manufacturers for a reclassification on speed-pedelec legislation.
Good information. These regulations explain the difference in sales numbers between regular ebikes and speed pedelecs. When I checked the numbers of ebike sales speed pedelec sales are in thousands yet regular ebike sales are in millions. It is really simple, when a company already selling in millions (and also can still make more money by removing speed limit and price discriminate), there is little point in terms of business for them to come up with a true high power motor for a market of thousands because of these extreme restrictions. Not every decision of a company is for the good of a customer or has some magical optimality underneath. That is the answer to the 250W limit.
On a side note:
Many ebikers In these forums were harassed by regular cyclist for riding ebikes. People don't like it when a regular cyclists call them for them for it.
It is ridiculous to see some of these ebikers becoming fanboys and showing the same unacceptable attitude towards other ebikers just because they want or need more than 250W nominal for their style of riding. Really? Now you are calling people for getting more support?
What is next people getting less then 100W calling out people who get more ?
If you are so concerned about the amount of support then please ride a regular bike and If you still want to ride an ebike then don't be surprised when being called out by a regular cyclist.
It came to a point that an individual who never owned anything but a single brand, who is barely averaging 90W, thinks getting 250W nominal and much higher peaks are ok, but begins to insult others when they mention cases that requires more. That is an unhealthy state of mind.
FWIW my last estimated FTP in Zwift was a bit over 260W(last one was 264W to be exact, I can probably do better if I am fresh), I can also exceed 800W without getting off the saddle so my fitness is ok. I can do each and every climb with a regular bike.
YET I still can find a use case for all systems including the lower powered fazua for mtb/xc, mainstream like bosch drives for touring bikes and the higher powered dd's which are a delight to ride on the road.
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
750 W. You're an American, aren't you?
If your FTP is over 260 W, why do you need an e-bike in the first place?
And, honestly, nobody forces you to buy a Bosch bike. You'll be happy with Bafang Ultra, why should you exercise?
Bosch is not interested in your whining. (R&M makes 250 W cargo e-bikes, and these sell).
MartsEbike
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- Dunstable
TForan
Well-Known Member
I wanted an fat tired Ebike , which is the type with the most weight and drag because of the big tires. I rode a Felt with a Bosch and it certainly didn't have enough power for me. I then bought a Biktrix with the Bafang Ultra and it was a night and day difference. Just buy what suits you .
Going on four years with minimal upkeep.
Going on four years with minimal upkeep.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
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- USA
My experience is personal and direct. The CoC vs. Type Approval is as I described it, although my direct experience comes from Belgium, not Poland, so I made sure to note that local jurisdictions do in fact have variances.
Here's a thought: Stick to facts. Don't be so snotty and arrogant. As Americans, thats our job.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Ironically you quote EU law yet ride an unrestricted ebike
Gionnirocket
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When that's all you are allowed, then you just defend it as it is right.
But to break it down it's because the EU be bitches and 1 donkey power (250w) is all they've ever known and can handle. We've rescued thier ass's more than once, yet they think they somehow are better
They'll argue EU law/ US law, this works here, we can do this... blah, blah blah... it's all irrelevant.
But to break it down it's because the EU be bitches and 1 donkey power (250w) is all they've ever known and can handle. We've rescued thier ass's more than once, yet they think they somehow are better
They'll argue EU law/ US law, this works here, we can do this... blah, blah blah... it's all irrelevant.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
You must respect his authority
Thats pretty good FTP. I typically average 150-200W over the course of 1.5 to 2 hours most days and 100w on off days.
I also have a use case for all my ebikes (Brose eTMB, Brose speed pedelec, 52V 1500w BBSHD mid-drive, 52V 1500w GMAC hub drive) and am considering getting a Specialized Levo SL.
Just because someone wants a higher power ebike doesnt mean they are always going to use it (I ride all my bikes using the same FTP)
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Could me show a Type Approval for an L1e-B you would use in Belgium?
Because Specialized furnish this document with their S-Pedelecs, and this paper was the base for registering my 45 km/h Vado.
This document, titled "EU Certificate of Conformity" is naming Type Approval in the heading. It is issued individually for each approved vehicle.
It is not a Polish thing. It is European thing, and this CoC would be valid in Belgium, too.
Now, YOU stick to facts.
Because Specialized furnish this document with their S-Pedelecs, and this paper was the base for registering my 45 km/h Vado.
This document, titled "EU Certificate of Conformity" is naming Type Approval in the heading. It is issued individually for each approved vehicle.
It is not a Polish thing. It is European thing, and this CoC would be valid in Belgium, too.
Now, YOU stick to facts.
MartsEbike
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Its just funny how predictable it is on this forum.... I don't mean any ill will to @Alaskan, I'm sure he does like his bikes and has a good time riding them, but for my riding I've found many ebikes lacking. I even purchased the most powerful motor said to be available - an Ultra, and still feel it needs a little more pop. An X1 controller/voltage upgrade would probably do the trick... I've encountered situations that turned a decent woodland track into a fairly mundane track all because the speed was scrubbed off... and a little more performance would have kept it exciting...
If I was limited to UK legal bikes I doubt I'd be an E-bike owner.... Far too much money for such low performance. I could buy a decent KTM for the same money!
So often the reply is but this bike has the power to climb Mount Everest (why do you need more?) - which is true, but its the way it delivers the power which could be improved for other types of riding. This is why I still like Hub Drive bikes - the power delivery is better (for gaining speed - not altitude) and more consistent.... The dream is combining the best elements from both types of motor but that's hard to achieve.
In any case, changing subject slightly, but is anyone paying attention to the explosion of electric Scooters on the roads (paths!) these days. High Power Scooters (1000-3000w+) are commonplace in towns and cities in the UK, often travelling much faster than the 15.5mph ebikes are limited too!! All throttle only. Despite their dubious legal status (not legal in most places), these things are on sale everywhere, even Amazon, but try find an ebike of more than 250w (UK)... and good luck with that, rare as hens teeth... We live in strange times
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Oh, these people are British!
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