Who has the Smoothest and Natural Torque Sensor Hub Drive

[opimax]

I have tested a couple bikes , Aventon Level and Velotric 2 and found them lagging , especially on take off. I looked for a new Radster but not one near by. I have read in comments they have this issue also. I am hoping to find something local for support, biggest issue for me.

I have had 2 brands with rear hubs in the past which I enjoyed . Stromer was a great ride maybe the best and Bh was 2nd. I have/had mid drives that I like but looking for a higher ebend components on rear hub. They are Trek Allant with Bosch, Specialized Vado 5.0 igh with Browse, WattWagons using A Bafang 620 with alternate controller , all no delay and smooth delivery so the standard I have may be high . I would order a Zen anything it was available with local service.

additionally available to be unlocked would be a bonus and the more torque the better in general

i usually do longer rides using 3 batteries on max or 2nd highest power level each time ride on long R to trails , rolling hills.

please offer your thoughts on bikes , no options needed on high power, throttles ( which are a plus for me) and other distractions

 

[Seventysomething]

I have tested a couple bikes , Aventon Level and Velotric 2 and found them lagging , especially on take off. I looked for a new Radster but not one near by. I have read in comments they have this issue also. I am hoping to find something local for support, biggest issue for me.

I have had 2 brands with rear hubs in the past which I enjoyed . Stromer was a great ride maybe the best and Bh was 2nd. I have/had mid drives that I like but looking for a higher ebend components on rear hub. They are Trek Allant with Bosch, Specialized Vado 5.0 igh with Browse, WattWagons using A Bafang 620 with alternate controller , all no delay and smooth delivery so the standard I have may be high . I would order a Zen anything it was available with local service.

additionally available to be unlocked would be a bonus and the more torque the better in general

i usually do longer rides using 3 batteries on max or 2nd highest power level each time ride on long R to trails , rolling hills.

please offer your thoughts on bikes , no options needed on high power, throttles ( which are a plus for me) and other distractions

If you’re close to I-75, there is a dealer in Chattanooga that sells Zen bikes
The V3 Roadster R1’s is a excellent bike for the money, torque sensor is very smooth, don’t expect any help after the sale, they will not answer

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Don't know about the smoothest, but my 65 (bare) lb, 500W, 65 Nm Surface 604 V Rook has a very nicely implemented torque-sensing assist and progressive on-demand thumb throttle combo — a very versatile power delivery system in my book. With its optional 9 assist levels, I find it smoother and more versatile than the same combo on my neighbor's 5-level Aventon Level.2.

Get a little surging when in too low a gear or too high an assist level for the total resistance I'm facing at the moment. No other power delivery issues beyond the inevitable loss of hub motor efficiency at low wheel speeds. Riding with all that in mind pretty much solves the problem.

This ebike is assembled in Canada with decent name-brand components for the price. Excellent performance and support so far (2 yrs, 3000 mi) but nothing like Aventon's dealer and service network in the US.

 

[Neto]

I have a 2 year old 64 lbs cruiser with hub motor, bb torque sensor and brake sensor use for brake light and motor cutoff. The motor assist is instant and proportional to my pedaling.
For the last 6 months I've been looking for a lighter ebike that will give me same instant response and there's none. I've test ride Velotric, Aventons, and other mid-drives like Shimano, Yamaha, Bosch, and Brose, and they all have delayed assist during start. Noticeably they all don't have brake motor cutoff. Provably they need initial bike movement to allow motor to run for safety.
Imagine if your starting in a narrow path facing uphill, you don't have assist when you need it most. and the funny thing is all of them claim to give the most natural ride.
Natural ride for me is when I push the pedal, the motor respond proportionally without delay and alteration. Let my feet dictate the ride.

 

[opimax]

Going to test a Rad Roadster today

I have a browse on Specialized Vado igh, this seems fine to me just not enough torque. Also too much effort to keep higher speeds, need to able to adjust to my liking but this setting is not available. I do note it doesn’t have cut offs as you said

i was ok with Velotric and Aventon after the deal killer initial delay, not really natural but ok

 

[Mike_V]

Hi Opti,

You know of course these 'manufacturers' do not really sell torque sensors don't you ?:
Rather what sells are the usual rotary switching cadence assist discs with a hall sensor 'scabbed?' onto the bottom of the assembly because:
The riders applied PUSH while pedaling.
Simply: If you push down harder - more juice ~~~ don't and then cadence P. A . S . right ? - I believe !

{ Rotating strain gauges to measure derived torque with a lookup curve and it's chip are complicated and delicate feedback electromechanical mechanisms which are cost prohibitive and fragile' }
M.V.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Why not the chain based Vado 5.0 with 90 Nm and efficient drivetrain?

 

[opimax]

Stephan , couple who of issues for Speciqlized…no longer actually sold through local dealer as when I bought the igh . Got screwed on warranty repair and still have issues. Not impressed with the torque (or what I perceive to be the torque/power on hills) in general. No issue with the price but not worth the added expense and don’t need extra features, prefer hub drives for my riding style and your favorite no throttle! 1 broken leg may change your mind too.

Mike not sure I understand, saying not real torque sensor? I believe it but the Rad did ok , not as well as the
Stromer or Bosch or Brose but well enough to purchase if I want to purchase now ish and local.

 

[dodgeman]

I’ve got a Trek Verve+3. It’s the only one I’ve owned but we’ve rented some. The Trek is by far the smoothest but also the least powerful. The Trek is using a Bosch system, the Active Line I think.

 

[Neto]

I am for a bike that will accurately respond to my feet demand. A good torque sensor and a proportional controller is all I need. Take the cadence or speed out of the equation.

 

[Mike_V]

"Mike not sure I understand, saying not real torque sensor? I believe it but the Rad did ok , not as well as the
Stromer or Bosch or Brose but well enough to purchase if I want to purchase now ish and local."
It was my business.
You may see your self and search the available documentation about these being a cadence switch with a hall sensor on the bottom.
A genuine measurement of torque would require a slipring; rotating strain gage, 5V exciter voltage, & lookup table + more.
I'm not sure if a real measurement of torque would be useful because:
Exactly like the Hall - Torque varies too much and needs the cadence switch to smooth out the system.

 

[Neto]

Don't know about the smoothest, but my 65 (bare) lb, 500W, 65 Nm Surface 604 V Rook has a very nicely implemented torque-sensing assist and progressive on-demand thumb throttle combo — a very versatile power delivery system in my book. With its optional 9 assist levels, I find it smoother and more versatile than the same combo on my neighbor's 5-level Aventon Level.2.

Get a little surging when in too low a gear or too high an assist level for the total resistance I'm facing at the moment. No other power delivery issues beyond the inevitable loss of hub motor efficiency at low wheel speeds. Riding with all that in mind pretty much solves the problem.

This ebike is assembled in Canada with decent name-brand components for the price. Excellent performance and support so far (2 yrs, 3000 mi) but nothing like Aventon's dealer and service network in the US.

604 is the area code around Greater Vancouver. I nearly bought this Surface 604 Rook in 2022. I like how it runs but it's just too big for me. The torque sensor is mounted at the dropout..

 

[Neto]

This is how I see natural and smooth torque PAS ebike.

When the crank is horizontal, power applied is at maximum. At vertical, power applied is minimum or none. So, it's up and down yet the bike runs continuously not stop and go. that's natural.
With torque PAS, the motor assist will mimick that up and down power delivery. Electronic ramping and damping can help smooth en that up and down power.

Cadence and other sensors inclusion will improve the ride as the big guys claimed but offers no detailed explanation how.

The only sensor I would like included is a "level sensor" that will automatically adjust PAS level. Going uphill with more assist. Downhill, less assist.

 

[opimax]

Looked at Surface, not class 3 and not a local dealer. The sensor in the drop out was (is?) what my fav Stromer used though. I like the idea of added power going up hill

 

[BlackHand]

The only sensor I would like included is a "level sensor" that will automatically adjust PAS level. Going uphill with more assist. Downhill, less assist

The new Bosch gen5 has added inertial sensors to do that. Not much real world feedback yet, and it's all in how well they've programmed it though I think you can adjust the sensitivity of various parameters in the Flow app to your liking.

There’s a bit more to it than just a gearbox update though. Bosch says it’s re-engineered the sensor technology in the CX Gen 5 motor to make it more responsive and better at understanding what the rider and terrain are doing.

Of course there are torque sensors and a high-resolution cadence sensor, which are claimed to measure pedal inputs at 1,000 times per second. The motor is also able to detect pitch and vibrations thanks to its inertial sensors, so it knows the difference between a smooth uphill bike path and a technical singletrack pinch-climb. Using this information along with measuring the rider’s power input and current speed, it changes how it delivers power to the rear wheel accordingly.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

When the crank is horizontal, power applied is at maximum. At vertical, power applied is minimum or none. So, it's up and down yet the bike runs continuously not stop and go. that's natural.
With torque PAS, the motor assist will mimick that up and down power delivery. Electronic ramping and damping can help smooth en that up and down power.

My torque-sensing hub-drive surges with pedal position just as you described, but ONLY when I'm in way too high an assist level and way too low a gear for the total external resistance at hand.

This surging rarely comes up in normal riding and is quickly cured by upshifting, backing off on assist, or both. If it happens under other circumstances, I can't feel it.

In contrast, my power-sensing mid-drive never surges with pedal position.

 

[Neto]

The new Bosch gen5 has added inertial sensors to do that.

Thanks for the info. I want a simple level sensor that detects if the bike is pointing up or down. The inertial sensor is too complex for that purpose, Besides, I think it can detect up and down movement but not the grade of the road.
I'm an old guy with a bad ankle riding an ebike mainly for exercise, roaming around town and trails, no mountain. I am still looking for a lighter ebike with a simple technology built into it. An ebike that will give a proportional motor assist to my pedaling. No more no less.

 

[BlackHand]

With all due respect, I believe you are overthinking this. It's likely that a pure level sensor only would be more complicated and expensive to implement while being less performant at the same time. .

Bosch already makes these inhouse for many applications, so undoubtedly they are using their own sensor that they already have programming for. A 6 axis IMU is basically a gyroscope and an accelerometer rolled into one. It's what anything that moves and has a circuit board uses to tell how it is moving through the environment, including inclination.

FWIW, Yamaha implemented a simpler version of this in their motors a while back. I haven't heard many folks singing the praises of the auto mode, but maybe it's gotten better. I suspect you would find the delay before it reacts unacceptable and at least in the older motors it just changed to the next higher assist level, so there was no granularity in how it provided assist.

 

[McCorby]

Your requirements point toward high-quality rear hub systems that deliver consistent power smoothly while having local support available. If local service support exists, you should evaluate WattWagons Helios because it combines durable construction with customizable features and meets your needs for long rides and high torque performance. You can create a custom bike setup with Grin All-Axle's high-performance rear hub motor and top-notch batteries. Users who value throttle functionality should consider Juiced Bikes or Delfast models because they deliver strong torque performance while maintaining versatility.

WattWagons! AI generated drivel? lol!

 

[Neto]

With all due respect, I believe you are overthinking this. It's likely that a pure level sensor only would be more complicated and expensive to implement while being less performant at the same time. .

Bosch already makes these inhouse for many applications, so undoubtedly they are using their own sensor that they already have programming for. A 6 axis IMU is basically a gyroscope and an accelerometer rolled into one. It's what anything that moves and has a circuit board uses to tell how it is moving through the environment, including inclination.

FWIW, Yamaha implemented a simpler version of this in their motors a while back. I haven't heard many folks singing the praises of the auto mode, but maybe it's gotten better. I suspect you would find the delay before it reacts unacceptable and at least in the older motors it just changed to the next higher assist level, so there was no granularity in how it provided assist.

I'll be happy with a basic ebike with torque PAS without level sensor. Inclusion of inertial sensor is too complex for me to comprehend and appreciate.
It reminds me of the "state of the art" marketing statement.