What's a Warranty Worth?

[George S.]

I was looking at the parts Eric sells, at Luna Cycle. He has tried to sell parts into the Sondors market. I was surprised to find this:

http://lunacycle.com/sondors-upgrades/sondors-replacment-fat-bike-hub-motor/

Thing is, you don't deal with the spokes. You replace the motor inside the case. And a new motor is now $150. I'm going on the assumption most people could do this, on their own. If the Sondors battery goes bad, I assume there is no service. But a new battery is under $400, for a much higher capacity battery.

I more or less know how to replace the gears on my Mac motor. With my ebike, I have a motor, controller, and a battery. I like the idea of a spare motor, and a spare controller. I actually have a spare throttle lying around, now. I have two 'spare' batteries.

Everything else on my bike is something six shops could fix, the six shops within about a one hour drive that just sell bikes.

People said "Oh, you don't get a warranty when you build a kit, or buy a Sondors off a CF". Well, it cuts both ways. I'd rather have parts or fast ship parts, that are easy to install. If ebikes are cheap enough, I can have a spare.

 

[Kaldeem]

I am leaning towards this mentality too @George S. Warranties are good, but with bikes it just raises the prices a lot compared to the warranty life span at which your bike, treated and cared for will last. Bafang parts are everywhere and soon HD parts will be readily available too. So I would have to say, if your budget is limited build it yourself. If you got deep pockets with cheddar to spare go by a ST2's. Then come and race me. Haha.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

In psychology, they say, you can come with a cogent logic for anything you're interested in.
Keeping the confirmation bias aside, there are pro's and con's to this logic.

Not everyone has the time or intention to fix a Bafang's nylon gear. If one is just interested in getting to point B from A, you can buy a Golden V5 motor and 48V, 20Ah battery for less than $1K and it should be enough. If we go by that logic, everyone should use Toyota Corollas or prius for commuting. There is a market for BBS02, there is a market for Haibikes, there is a market for Porsche etc in this world.

You certainly get a better value components in DIY route but it does lack the integration and engineering of some of the turn key E-bikes.
In terms of PAS, BBS is nice but it is far from the smoothness of of Bosch system.

DIY route provides better value for the $ spent and the bike can get you to B from A but it certainly lacks the finesse and smooth intuitive power delivery. A major part of psychological satisfaction comes from the fact that you're in sync with the machine and do a lot of physical work.
Ikea effect anyone?

How often do you see this kind of smile on a throttle powered Ebike?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1708138742743469

 

[George S.]

If one is just interested in getting to point B from A, you can buy a Golden V5 motor and 48V, 20Ah battery for less than $1K and it should be enough.

Hi Ravi,

My Golden Motor V5 just showed up. It does seem pretty bullet-proof and the Bluetooth should make it easy to set the parameters. So I know what you are saying, and it is what I'm trying to do. Don't have the donor bike, yet.

I like pedaling and using the throttle. Never done anything else. It always pleases me. I don't think about it.

If anything, I'm trying to make sure that the kit vendors work out their customer service and parts stuff. For the folks on a budget, or in rural areas, this is pretty important. There are some real business opportunities in this stuff. Get some fast turnaround for certain kinds of repairs.

Hope that storm isn't messing up anything. You are in DC, yes, or thereabouts?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Hi Ravi,

My Golden Motor V5 just showed up. It does seem pretty bullet-proof and the Bluetooth should make it easy to set the parameters. So I know what you are saying, and it is what I'm trying to do. Don't have the donor bike, yet.

I like pedaling and using the throttle. Never done anything else. It always pleases me. I don't think about it.

If anything, I'm trying to make sure that the kit vendors work out their customer service and parts stuff. For the folks on a budget, or in rural areas, this is pretty important. There are some real business opportunities in this stuff. Get some fast turnaround for certain kinds of repairs.

Hope that storm isn't messing up anything. You are in DC, yes, or thereabouts?

I look fwd to your review of Golden V5 motor. Seems like a solid motor with a great price tag. Coupled with 48V, 20Ah battery, you'll have a kickass bike. Let us know how you like it.

 

[JoePah]

I wonder if the DIY kits are really cheaper in the long run. Poor warranty, reliability uncertain, assembly uncertain.

And even though eBikes depreciate significantly, a factory eBike will be worth a lot more than a DIY ebike. Who really wants to buy a 3 yo kit bike?


The warranty on my 2 factory ebikes has been well worth. Probably a huge cost issue for those selling it.

 

[George S.]

Joe,

Most of the kits are BBS units. Karl has run those into the ground over and over. It's kinda funny, really... I'd say they are 5 year motors. Love to see someone offering repair service just swapping out bad drives for rebuilt with a 24 hour turn.

All those Sondors bikes out there. Luna sells the gears and clutch for $50, the whole motor for $150. That G0x is everywhere now. I assume Sondors is using the thin version of the motor from the fatbike? Bafang is taking over the low end ebike market, DIY and online.

Everyone is claiming Samsung and Panasonic cells these days, even in the value packs.

 

[MLB]

I wonder if the DIY kits are really cheaper in the long run. Poor warranty, reliability uncertain, assembly uncertain.

And even though eBikes depreciate significantly, a factory eBike will be worth a lot more than a DIY ebike. Who really wants to buy a 3 yo kit bike?


The warranty on my 2 factory ebikes has been well worth. Probably a huge cost issue for those selling it.

I've had 5 Ebikes now. Would never buy someone elses home made setup, nor a 'factory' Bafang setup. Nothing wrong with them, great that they are available and cheap. But they certainly aren't the same experience as Bosch setup.
As said, there is a reason Porsches sell.
My choices of factory made bikes were all superbly built and designed and bought and sold used for a sold chunk of their original selling price. Same when I sold them again.

 

[George S.]

I've had 5 Ebikes now. Would never buy someone elses home made setup, nor a 'factory' Bafang setup.

I own 3 motors, a Mac and two Goldens. I could take my everyday ebike apart and make it what it was, in half an hour. Then I'd have a 3 year old bike with 3,000 miles on it. I paid $400. Maybe I sell it for $125. Gee, I lost a $275 in three years. I'd put the motor on something else or I could probably sell it. I have a couple of batteries, but it's hard to ship them. No one wants a used battery, even on a Stromer or a Hi! Bike. Do people say "Hi!" a lot when you're on a Hi! Bike? Does Jeb! have a Hi! Bike?

Bafang practically owns the US market. I believe you buy Euro bikes. We'll see what the marketplace does to Euro bikes when things like the Cross Current, the MonteCapro, and even the Thin hit the market. Gee, all these bikes use Bafang,.

 

[Jim123]

George S. I don't think MLB was against Bafang. He was talking about a used Bafang. The old SO2 had bad parts that were upgraded by Bafang. I would hate to buy a pre upgrade Bafang SO2. My Dad always was against used vehicles in principle. You don't know how well the other user treated the vehicle. Well I reread MLB post and factory setup means new I think. So I understood wrong. Have to give the argument win to you George S. Reviewers love the new Bafang kits. I don't think being assembled at a factory is going to hurt that.

 

[George S.]

If you want a DIY mid-drive what are your choices? Eric/Luna offers the Cyclone, but it's 3,000 watts and next year California will have real limits at 750 watts.

The price on the 02 is where it was two years ago, give or take. The Chinese economy is in bad shape, the currency is weak, and Bafang holds their price. Most of the DIY guys sell the 02 and not much else, and the HD is hard to keep legal, as sales ramps up. If the Max is refined, a quality torque sensor PAS experience, look out Bosch. But more power for Baffo.

But if you judge it as a motor, it's fine. I assume @MLB recognizes it is not a refined experience. That's why I like hubs. But I'm pretty sure Bafang is maneuvering to control most of the hub market in the US. Thing is, if you have a decent bike and you have to climb hills, the BBS02 is a great solution.

It's a mess. You could have repair depots for the DIY stuff, a trading website. They should refurb the 02's. The DIY guys offer little product range and are locked into performance. It's a sick little industry in the USA, ebikes. I have a couple thousand dollars worth of parts and I can build really great ebikes. I'll buy a BBS02 when it's $300.

There are quality choices that save a lot of money and provide a great experience.

 

[MLB]

Chinese junk is taking over everything. That's hardly an argument that its "best".

 

[Jim123]

MLB your post kind of irritated me that it might be kind of anti Chinese in principle. But thinking about the reviews carefully, what you are saying is right. The motor for the HD is very heavy duty but has been criticized as being able to be made lighter(with higher quality alloy) and with better manufacturing tolerances. A narrow wide chainring should have been part of the default design as well. But all the mosfets have been upgraded and these are durable if not high quality kits.

 

[MLB]

MLB your post kind of irritated me that it might be kind of anti Chinese in principle. But thinking about the reviews carefully, what you are saying is right. The motor for the HD is very heavy duty but has been criticized as being able to be made lighter(with higher quality alloy) and with better manufacturing tolerances. A narrow wide chainring should have been part of the default design as well. But all the mosfets have been upgraded and these are durable if not high quality kits.

Sorry, not my intent to irritate. I'm certainly not anti Chinese! When they have the money and direction they are capable of wonderful quality, as are all peoples. But the fact is that much of the products made in China ARE cheap as hell and not of the quality we USED to expect.
Some of the loudest Bafang boosters are on their 2nd or 3d motor! We've come to accept that crap is the norm, and that replacing items every few years is ok as long as they are cheap enough. "Bafang butter" = the liquified remains of the plastic/nylon gears after they've melted down. (don't know if it takes excessive voltage for that or not)
THAT should irritate owners.

There is room in the market for all types. The cheaper end is lucky to have 'decent' quality products that perform very well. The upper end is lucky that there are those willing and able to build the higher quality that most of the market expects, and yet still stay in biz.
They sell a lot more VW's than Porsche's, but I'd still rather have the Porsche.