What set of features and price points would you prefer in your E-bike battery?

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Batteries constitute a significant portion of the purchase price and replacement costs can be quite high.
Lack of standardization and innovation has left this space needing some much-needed attention.
Except for Yamaha and a few packs from BMZ, most batteries are warrantied for 2 or less than 2 years.

Even a Hailong case standard battery (48V, 14Ah) from Rad costs about $610 including shipping and they carry 1yr warranty.
To put in context, that's about $910 / kWhr
Premium brands like Yamaha, Bosch, the cost can go up to $1400 to $1600 / kWhr

To really make the EV revolution happen on a wider scale, batteries that are built to very high standards but cost 30 to 40% less of these aforementioned numbers are needed. The number one reason most people are skeptical about electrical cars is that the battery replacement cost can be prohibitive. This is despite the fact that most car makers offer a very generous 8 years/ 100,000 miles warranty on their hybrid + battery systems. This equates to around $350- $400/ kWhr. Even then most people are skeptical about an electric car purchase.

But, E-bike riders are willing to pay $900/ kWhr for just 1 year warranty. Most E-bike riders tend to turn a blind eye to high battery pack prices because E-bikes are so wonderful and offer so many benefits.
As the market is taking off, people will start realizing this hurdle within 2-3 years of ownership.

So, I would like to ask the community:

• How much are you willing to pay for a standard battery, let's say 48V, 14Ah that is guaranteed to last at least 50,000 miles and carries a legal, written 5-year warranty ?
  Sometimes companies go belly up within those 5 years but if there is a strong support system in place and a written legal document certifying that it will be guaranteed for 5 years under normal usage (not abuse) conditions, what would you pay for such a battery?
  [The weight of the battery is a concern but given the small pack capacities, a significant increase in the energy density is not possible at least until 2025. So, weight is not taken into consideration in asking the above question.]
  
  
• If your battery had a deep sleep mode for winter storage, would you be willing to pay a premium for that?

Feel free to check the replacement cost of your battery pack for better clarity.
The following infographic describes the situation in the EV market where the batteries have robust liquid cooling. But, the prices quoted in the picture may not include module assembly, BMS, liquid cooling, overheads. So, adding all that, a very conservative number would be $200-$250/ kWhr for 8yrs to 10 yrs warranty.

 

[Art Deco]

In addition, one very minor issue that really bothers me about the current batteries is the proprietary BMS. I should be able to buy a range extender ( water bottle format battery) at any bike shop, attach it to any major brand bike, and ride off. Just like changing out my starter battery in my car.

 

[Dave Rocks]

How much are you willing to pay for a standard battery, let's say 48V, 14Ah that is guaranteed to last at least 50,000 miles and carries a legal, written 5-year warranty ?


$600 would be good = ten bucks a month.

 

[J.R.]

This is despite the fact that most car makers offer a very generous 8 years/ 100,000 miles warranty on their hybrid + battery systems. This equates to around $350- $400/ kWhr. Even then most people are skeptical about an electric car purchase.

When I started driving a 10 year old car was considered old and one could be had cheap. Now a 10 year old car is not old and people regularly run a car for more than 200k miles. The average car in the US is 12.1 years old.

Average age of U.S. vehicles hit record 12.1 years in 2020-IHS Markit

The average age of U.S. cars and light trucks rose to a record 12.1 years in 2020, as Americans drove fewer miles and scrapped more vehicles during the COVID-19 pandemic, according to IHS Markit.

www.reuters.com

When I think of a new vehicle these days I think of keeping it 10 years, so 8 worries me.

A good 14ah battery with deep sleep mode I'd be willing to pay $700. If it was one of those Reention packs with the troublesome 3 pin connector, I'd pass. I don't want a pack I have to strap in with velcro or bungee cords. Quality electrical connections are important.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery with a winter sleep mode.

I'd gladly pay a 20% premium for a battery with a 5 year 50k mile warranty.

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery with a lower risk of fire in an accident. How much of a premium would very much depend on how much lower the risk was.

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery technology that was easily cross-platform: e.g I would love a battery that I could use on different models of bikes.

 

[Ebiker33]

I have decided one really high end battery that can outlast my butt should be sufficient, that would be 52V with 21700 cells with 21 amp hours, should run about 1K.
That gives you all the power and run time you need with any motor.

 

[tomjasz]

My EM3ev batteries were higher priced but the quality of the builds, while limited in case design, have been my most reliable. Luna mediocre, UPP less than mediocre. We went back to EM3ev packs simply because the failure rates were far less than any China direct batteries.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery with a winter sleep mode.

I'd gladly pay a 20% premium for a battery with a 5 year 50k mile warranty.

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery with a lower risk of fire in an accident. How much of a premium would very much depend on how much lower the risk was.

I'd gladly pay a premium for a battery technology that was easily cross-platform: e.g I would love a battery that I could use on different models of bikes.

Well buy a Bosch powered bike I use the same battery on my bulls speed bike and our gepeda tandem. One the longest lasting battery out there no loss of torque as the battery drains you can get matching keys for the lock comes with a 4 amp charger

 

[J.R.]

Batteries constitute a significant portion of the purchase price and replacement costs can be quite high.
Lack of standardization and innovation has left this space needing some much-needed attention.
Except for Yamaha and a few packs from BMZ, most batteries are warrantied for 2 or less than 2 years.

Even a Hailong case standard battery (48V, 14Ah) from Rad costs about $610 including shipping and they carry 1yr warranty.
To put in context, that's about $910 / kWhr
Premium brands like Yamaha, Bosch, the cost can go up to $1400 to $1600 / kWhr

To really make the EV revolution happen on a wider scale, batteries that are built to very high standards but cost 30 to 40% less of these aforementioned numbers are needed. The number one reason most people are skeptical about electrical cars is that the battery replacement cost can be prohibitive. This is despite the fact that most car makers offer a very generous 8 years/ 100,000 miles warranty on their hybrid + battery systems. This equates to around $350- $400/ kWhr. Even then most people are skeptical about an electric car purchase.

But, E-bike riders are willing to pay $900/ kWhr for just 1 year warranty. Most E-bike riders tend to turn a blind eye to high battery pack prices because E-bikes are so wonderful and offer so many benefits.
As the market is taking off, people will start realizing this hurdle within 2-3 years of ownership.

So, I would like to ask the community:

• How much are you willing to pay for a standard battery, let's say 48V, 14Ah that is guaranteed to last at least 50,000 miles and carries a legal, written 5-year warranty ?
  Sometimes companies go belly up within those 5 years but if there is a strong support system in place and a written legal document certifying that it will be guaranteed for 5 years under normal usage (not abuse) conditions, what would you pay for such a battery?
  [The weight of the battery is a concern but given the small pack capacities, a significant increase in the energy density is not possible at least until 2025. So, weight is not taken into consideration in asking the above question.]
  
  
• If your battery had a deep sleep mode for winter storage, would you be willing to pay a premium for that?

Feel free to check the replacement cost of your battery pack for better clarity.
The following infographic describes the situation in the EV market where the batteries have robust liquid cooling. But, the prices quoted in the picture may not include module assembly, BMS, liquid cooling, overheads. So, adding all that, a very conservative number would be $200-$250/ kWhr for 8yrs to 10 yrs warranty.


View attachment 92248

I like the form factor of the bikes you have in the works. We all want range, but I would prefer to carry a spare than have a pack that's too heavy to be held securely in place and I'm not crazy about the looks of some packs.



I believe some of the issues (no proof) owners have had with the connections and securing these packs is they are too heavy. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear the high voltage (52V) is too much for the connection. Higher volts and inexpensive connection may cause resistance that creates heat. A 14ah and maybe some kind of range extender or a carry pack of 8 or 10ah offered as an extra purchase might be good. I often carry a 12ah backup.

 

[opimax]

If we had hot swappable batteries I would not care. Reminds me of music services Pandora and the others I own little music long play lists though

I always carry 2 spare , 1 in each pannier hoping for the century ride almost each outing. If I can do a century with 2 or 1 battery even better

i am in the south, winter lasts a couple weeks at most now. On top of that retired allows me to ride at the prime part of each day so I miss just few days for winter time, maybe shorter rides. So for me no sleep mode needed

i would always pay for quality anything and since this is my thing in retirement if I knew a better battery was available I would be all over it

the warranty part is questionable. I don’t trust the big names on their warranty and as you said the warranty is not from a standard big battery company so i don’t know if the warranty means much , quality of the product always does

all my personal opinion for my personal needs

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

All your inputs are very much appreciated!

The E-bike market has seen a lot of growth and a lot of shoddy products.
There is always a market for high-quality products. Building a high-quality battery that has a super long life and very low risk, takes a lot of work.
Fortunately, we have access to very cutting-edge technology and supply chain. I gather here are the items that people prefer in their E-bike battery pack.

1. Long cycle life - a guaranteed life of 5 years or 50,000 miles usage before it hits 80% capacity.
2. Top tier build quality (connectors, BMS, casing)
3. Deep sleep mode that enables safe storage for ~6 months
4. Very safe with 2 layers of protection
5. A base charge rate of 4A, a fast charge of 7A
6. You just plugin and the BMS takes care of everything, none of the 80% charge limit stuff.
7. No compromise in the power at low voltage (i.e., very minimal voltage sag)
8. Not so proprietary shape
9. Supported 8 years (hard to predict technology that far ahead)

Achieving all these is not easy and would certainly incur a premium but it is a very worthy challenge to serve the E-bike community.
This month is a milestone for me. Completing my doctoral dissertation and starting my scientific career that is deeply connected to E-bikes. I turned down a very nice offer from Amazon so I could work on building Zen E-bikes and it would be deeply satisfying if I can serve the E-bike community by offering top-notch batteries and E-bikes.

 

[fooferdoggie]

All your inputs are very much appreciated!

The E-bike market has seen a lot of growth and a lot of shoddy products.
There is always a market for high-quality products. Building a high-quality battery that has a super long life and very low risk, takes a lot of work.
Fortunately, we have access to very cutting-edge technology and supply chain. I gather here are the items that people prefer in their E-bike battery pack.

1. Long cycle life - a guaranteed life of 5 years or 50,000 miles usage before it hits 80% capacity.
2. Top tier build quality (connectors, BMS, casing)
3. Deep sleep mode that enables safe storage for ~6 months
4. Very safe with 2 layers of protection
5. A base charge rate of 4A, a fast charge of 7A
6. You just plugin and the BMS takes care of everything, none of the 80% charge limit stuff.
7. No compromise in the power at low voltage (i.e., very minimal voltage sag)
8. Not so proprietary shape
9. Supported 8 years (hard to predict technology that far ahead)

Achieving all these is not easy and would certainly incur a premium but it is a very worthy challenge to serve the E-bike community.
This month is a milestone for me. Completing my doctoral dissertation and starting my scientific career that is deeply connected to E-bikes. I turned down a very nice offer from Amazon so I could work on building Zen E-bikes and it would be deeply satisfying if I can serve the E-bike community by offering top-notch batteries and E-bikes.

Bosch meets most of those already. it would be impossible to do a milage or 5 year warranty people do crazy things with their batteries. not sure how practical a 6 month sooner would be that may be the time to not have a e bike. thats a long time for a battery. bosch has a 6 amp charger though not in the us. you get the same power till the battery is trained. no worry about the 80% charge. not sure how you would deal with a shape all bikes are different. but bosch still makes batteries that will fit their oldest setups.

 

[vincent]

i think $600-700 would be reasonable

 

[Dallant]

Bosch meets most of those already. it would be impossible to do a milage or 5 year warranty people do crazy things with their batteries. not sure how practical a 6 month sooner would be that may be the time to not have a e bike. thats a long time for a battery. bosch has a 6 amp charger though not in the us. you get the same power till the battery is trained. no worry about the 80% charge. not sure how you would deal with a shape all bikes are different. but bosch still makes batteries that will fit their oldest setups.

My new Trek Rail 5 EMTB came with a 2 amp charger and I haven’t even taken it out of its box yet. Using the 4 amp from my Allant+7. I never stop the charger in an attempt to make 80%. It shuts down on its own. IMO there isn’t going to be a universal shaped battery. Even cars haven’t achieved that.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I don't see a universal form factor being practical, but I would settle for a universal voltage and charging system/connector. Maybe a connector that could be included on the electric car charging stations that you see as well as place to lock the bike to the charging station. This could lead to dedicated charging stations in secure bike cages around a city and in work places. 52V or even 48V would work for most applications.

 

[opimax]

Special congrats for PhD!

 

[Art Deco]

All your inputs are very much appreciated!

The E-bike market has seen a lot of growth and a lot of shoddy products.
There is always a market for high-quality products. Building a high-quality battery that has a super long life and very low risk, takes a lot of work.
Fortunately, we have access to very cutting-edge technology and supply chain. I gather here are the items that people prefer in their E-bike battery pack.

1. Long cycle life - a guaranteed life of 5 years or 50,000 miles usage before it hits 80% capacity.
2. Top tier build quality (connectors, BMS, casing)
3. Deep sleep mode that enables safe storage for ~6 months
4. Very safe with 2 layers of protection
5. A base charge rate of 4A, a fast charge of 7A
6. You just plugin and the BMS takes care of everything, none of the 80% charge limit stuff.
7. No compromise in the power at low voltage (i.e., very minimal voltage sag)
8. Not so proprietary shape
9. Supported 8 years (hard to predict technology that far ahead)

Achieving all these is not easy and would certainly incur a premium but it is a very worthy challenge to serve the E-bike community.
This month is a milestone for me. Completing my doctoral dissertation and starting my scientific career that is deeply connected to E-bikes. I turned down a very nice offer from Amazon so I could work on building Zen E-bikes and it would be deeply satisfying if I can serve the E-bike community by offering top-notch batteries and E-bikes.

Big Congratulations!
Is your dissertation committee chair on board with your work?
PHDs today seem to be like an endurance event. Took my daughter almost a year after she did her comprehensives before approval. That 'four more years for a doctorate' was like a three hour cruise to Gillian's Island .

 

[tomjasz]

Piled High and Deep. Cynicism is rampant but I have nothing but respect for anyone’s PHD accomplishments. You go man! You’re a bright spot in the eBike world, thanks for all you share!

 

[stw]

My new Trek Rail 5 EMTB came with a 2 amp charger and I haven’t even taken it out of its box yet. Using the 4 amp from my Allant+7. I never stop the charger in an attempt to make 80%. It shuts down on its own. IMO there isn’t going to be a universal shaped battery. Even cars haven’t achieved that.

My Bosch bike came with a 500wh battery and 2amp charger (new iZip in March). I've been stopping the charger at 4 out of 5 bars to get an 80% charge in hopes of a longer cycle life. I assume the Bosch's BMS auto shut-down happens at 100% charge.

I think we're pretty close to a universal shape for e-bike battery. It's the universal connectors/mounts we need, if I understand it correctly (which I might not). The 36v13a Bosch battery shape is pretty close to the shape of 52v14.5a 21700 cell batteries you see, such as sold by Grin Tech. That shape could go on a downtube like most do, or on the seat tube mount, even in the spot the Rad puts them if they enlarged that frame pocket to accommodate a widely used standard. That shape would be easy to incorporate into a sleek design. One advantage of a universal shape that plugs into universal connector and mount is it would put pressure on having a universal BMS.

 

[Ebiker01]

@Ravi,
Great thread and good questions !

The cost should be , and many will be , but that's where we have to arrive, at the cost of 325-375$ max. for that battery (48/14amps, smart BMS) .

5 year warranty - an additional 125$ =500$ MAX, preferably 400$ max.

Do you guys know that we are talking about 46-50cells ? How many cells it depends on the type of cell... For Liquid cooling add 100$, actually not sure about this one, cheap vs expensive cooling prices ?

If a pack has a ridiculously high price of 600$ or insanity high of 1200$ it only speaks of about the lack of education on behalf of the customer.

Why do i make that statement ? A typical electric car (ex. TeslA 3) has
4416 of those cells . Imagine if it were like this: 46cells at a cost of 600$ X 96 (4416:46=96) =57,600$ just for the battery pack !! But no, that pack is about 10.000$ maybe 9k now ? , that's roughly about 125$ for the 48/14ah pack of cells ONLY.

In our case we need a case and Bms for each pack..add 17-19$ for those:
the PVC case, 0.001$ worth of wires ,
the tiny silicon wafer with the simplistic chip aKa BMS , and another 125$-unlimited* for labour/profit.Allthough profit is not really needed in tne first few years as long as there are many sales.


Right now we are all (except DIY folks ) getting fleeced having to pay ridiculous prices of 500$-1200$ for about 46-50batteries enclosed in that PVC case with the BMS.

Congratulations BOSCH for selling 125$ worth of lithium + the few $ for the remaining parts for 1000$. NO WONDER you made your own Laws via lobby(People for bikes) aka Class 3 law in US , in EU and elsewere...and most ebikes run on Bosch motors...hmm maybe we
should call our state AG's ? We just had the very recent Google: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-over-alleged-play-store-abuse?sref=OhWogXsR



Companies nowadays they recycle the batteries , also our used batteries should be bought back(if one pays 600$ and after 3/4years it has 80% SOC, that battery should be bought back for at least 25% off the orig. price (the lithium/nickel/cobalt/graphite are only going UP in prices) and bY UP meaning 100-300% higher if i look at the recent history.

The problem is where will the cells be made ? That can bring the cost down or Up. A Tesla module of 95% or even 100% SOC 21700 cells has a very reasonable price( not many avlb. online 4sale...) i'm sure one could build a 48/14-ah pack , resell it for 375$ and still make a BIG profit. That's almost 90-100packs
from a lightly or unused module(not a lot of them for sale on the online market though !)

Only A big company could bring those prices to that level.
Lower battery price > ebikes being sold !

Lots of i ideas here , prob. a few minor mistakes, looking foward for some realistic opinions.

*= up to and not any higher then 300$ ! If high inflation we may need a price adjustment .

- the pics of Tesla pack are a little old , maybe some other "fanboys" /
"fangirls" /non-binary fans have recent info ?