What set of features and price points would you prefer in your E-bike battery?

[scottsdalecommuter]

@Ravi,
Great thread and good questions !

The cost should be , and many will be , but that's where we have to arrive, at the cost of 325-375$ max. for that battery (48/14amps, smart BMS) .

5 year warranty - an additional 125$ =500$ MAX, preferably 400$ max.

Do you guys know that we are talking about 46-50cells ? How many cells it depends on the type of cell... For Liquid cooling add 100$, actually not sure about this one, cheap vs expensive cooling prices ?

If a pack has a ridiculously high price of 600$ or insanity high of 1200$ it only speaks of about the lack of education on behalf of the customer.

Why do i make that statement ? A typical electric car (ex. TeslA 3) has
4416 of those cells . Imagine if it were like this: 46cells at a cost of 600$ X 96 (4416:46=96) =57,600$ just for the battery pack !! But no, that pack is about 10.000$ maybe 9k now ? , that's roughly about 125$ for the 48/14ah pack of cells ONLY.

In our case we need a case and Bms for each pack..add 17-19$ for those:
the PVC case, 0.001$ worth of wires ,
the tiny silicon wafer with the simplistic chip aKa BMS , and another 125$-unlimited* for labour/profit.Allthough profit is not really needed in tne first few years as long as there are many sales.


Right now we are all (except DIY folks ) getting fleeced having to pay ridiculous prices of 500$-1200$ for about 46-50batteries enclosed in that PVC case with the BMS.

Congratulations BOSCH for selling 125$ worth of lithium + the few $ for the remaining parts for 1000$. NO WONDER you made your own Laws via lobby(People for bikes) aka Class 3 law in US , in EU and elsewere...and most ebikes run on Bosch motors...hmm maybe we
should call our state AG's ? We just had the very recent Google: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-over-alleged-play-store-abuse?sref=OhWogXsR



Companies nowadays they recycle the batteries , also our used batteries should be bought back(if one pays 600$ and after 3/4years it has 80% SOC, that battery should be bought back for at least 25% off the orig. price (the lithium/nickel/cobalt/graphite are only going UP in prices) and bY UP meaning 100-300% higher if i look at the recent history.

The problem is where will the cells be made ? That can bring the cost down or Up. A Tesla module of 95% or even 100% SOC 21700 cells has a very reasonable price( not many avlb. online 4sale...) i'm sure one could build a 48/14-ah pack , resell it for 375$ and still make a BIG profit. That's almost 90-100packs
from a lightly or unused module(not a lot of them for sale on the online market though !)

Only A big company could bring those prices to that level.
Lower battery price > ebikes being sold !

Lots of i ideas here , prob. a few minor mistakes, looking foward for some realistic opinions.

*= up to and not any higher then 300$ ! If high inflation we may need a price adjustment .

- the pics of Tesla pack are a little old , maybe some other "fanboys" /
"fangirls" /non-binary fans have recent info ?

We are in talks with a few OEMs.
For example, Bosch will test our batteries by the end of the year. If our batteries vastly outperform their current batteries, then we may pursue something more substantial with them.

Yamaha is another conservative Japanese company. Their batteries are pretty good actually, but they don't view the American market as something very important. EU market is 100x more for them. So, in short, no plans of working with them as of now.

Lack of standardization is hurting the industry. Bosch charger can't be used on Yamaha and Shimano doesn't with any of them. This is too silly.
Imagine if Honda car owners can only refill at BP station, Toyota car owners can refill at Shell, and GM owners can only refill at Exxon ? That would be outrageous and yet that is exactly what is happening in the industry. Not just within the E-bike industry and to some extent in the electric car industries but it's a bit better with cars.

I’d be willing to pay 1000 for a 5 year battery. I bike commute so the per mile cost becomes very low very quickly. I bought an aventon pace 500 and was out the door for under 2000. Battery has a year warranty now and will be more than happy to pay 300 to 500 at the end of a year to get a new battery if needed. When I compare to the costs of owning a car and how much I hate driving a car, the economics work out real quick in my favor for the ebike.

 

[George S.]

Have you really looked? Basically the 2,000 cycle battery is LFP. That chemistry is taking over the RV battery market. As always, there are high margin US companies and low margin Chinese companies. Lots of tests, thousands on YouTube, show the Chinese products are not consistent, but they are good when they are good. That's the RV market, for kilowatt systems and up. For ebikes the LFP have been around as long as I have been involved. I bought a Sun LFP (36v/15ah) in 2015 for $300, 3 months to ship. It is going very strong 5-6 years later, maybe 85% of capacity, but I'm not using 36v systems anymore. You can buy LFP on Ebay and on Amazon, mostly the same sellers. Here's the rub. It's bigger and somewhat heavier. So it's not going to fit in the molded cases. It might fit in a top tube bag but mostly it's a rear rack thing. I've made two LFP in the past few months. The first is an 8AH for $75, the second a 12AH for $105. The second is not wired up quite yet. There is a cost advantage to building DIY, but there is absolutely no need. The smaller pack, in two pieces at 24v will fit in a standard top tube bad. The larger cells, in back, are roughly like D cells. The heavy battery weighs ten pounds, but it's maybe double the volume of an 18650 pack. The other thing: They don't really tend to explode or catch fire. Just a safer chemistry.

 

[AHicks]

I’d be willing to pay 1000 for a 5 year battery. I bike commute so the per mile cost becomes very low very quickly. I bought an aventon pace 500 and was out the door for under 2000. Battery has a year warranty now and will be more than happy to pay 300 to 500 at the end of a year to get a new battery if needed. When I compare to the costs of owning a car and how much I hate driving a car, the economics work out real quick in my favor for the ebike.

My thought is that you may have a 5 year battery.....
I think the jury is still out on the average lifespan of the batteries used in the majority of production e-bikes....
As a recreational rider, I likely don't ride the number of miles you ride, but I do ride daily. I have a '17 RAD bike purchased in the fall of '16 with an original battery that's still going strong, with no appreciable difference in the mileage run between charges. That entire bike was 1600.....

 

[tomjasz]

I’d be willing to pay 1000 for a 5 year battery.

My 2014 EM3ev batteries are still powering 2 bikes. Yes, there's some sag, but I still get 20 miles before recharging.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

My thought is that you may have a 5 year battery.....
I think the jury is still out on the average lifespan of the batteries used in the majority of production e-bikes....
As a recreational rider, I likely don't ride the number of miles you ride, but I do ride daily. I have a '17 RAD bike purchased in the fall of '16 with an original battery that's still going strong, with no appreciable difference in the mileage run between charges. That entire bike was 1600.....

Great to know, thanks for sharing. I wish I would have discovered ebikes many years ago but grateful to find one now. I really disliking driving a lot. My commute is 10 miles one way so even with some healthy drop in battery range over time it should still get me there. I even bought a charger for my desk at work but don’t need it for a standard day which is just under 20 miles. We are looking at a rad bike now too so glad to hear they hold up well!

 

[m@Robertson]

I’d be willing to pay 1000 for a 5 year battery

I'll pitch in the same comment as @AHicks and @tomjasz . My 17.5ah, 52v pack with Samsung 25r cells from Luna is still going strong and I am past 2000 cycles on it. In its heyday it was charged twice daily, 5 days a week for a period of ... maybe 3 years? I got there by religiously

1. Charging to 80%
2. Never going too deep on the discharge (hence the twice daily charging, once at home and once at work)
3. regular monthly 100% balance charges

The pack had a 50a/70a BMS and 25R cells are legendary for being able to take a shellacking.

As my fleet of bikes multiplied, I eventually spread out and the pack was semi-retired for about a year. Recently I put one of my cargo bikes back into service at a second residence and I just couldn't find a better battery to fit the bike that beat that old battery. To this day there is no sign of capacity loss.

Point being: Your battery's lifetime is heavily influenced by a quality pack build and being smart about how you treat it. As in ignore all those bozos who say to charge the crap out of the pack, leave it charged to 100% and go on a sabbatical to the Himalayas etc. One thing I do not skimp on is a battery. I NEVER look for a price bargain and performance like this is part of the reward for not buying cheap.