WattWagons UCP with M630

[ak907]

I'm looking for feedback on the new Bafang M630 motor. Specifically, I'm wondering if it would be a suitable fit for the WW Ultimate Commuter Pro frames and how well it performs in that application.

I'm currently on my second and third M620 motor rebuilds, as they seem to require major work after only about 6,000 miles. My first M620 failed due to an electronics issue, and upon disassembly, I found the pawl had stripped a significant number of teeth on the inner main gear. The motor I replaced it with now has a nasty grinding sound while pedaling, and I suspect the bottom bracket/axle is the cause.

That motor also recently experienced intermittent torque/pedaling detection failures and surging after being ridden in the rain, though that problem eventually resolved itself. Consequently, I no longer trust the M620's weather resistance—a significant issue for a primary commuter vehicle.

I use only pedal assist (never the throttle) and have not modified the motors for increased power. Given the nearly $800 cost per motor and the high price of replacement parts, this is becoming frustrating. Repairs are also costly and time-consuming; I can't find e-bike mechanics for less than $100 per hour, which, when combined with parts and extended downtime, doesn't make financial sense.

 

[Gionnirocket]

From what I understand the M630 is very similar, but more powerful. This may impact your drivetrain reliability.
A few questions.
Are your current M620 motors UART or CANbus?
If UART did you do any programming modifications?
Have you opened them up to grease the gears?
Do you have any mechanical skills to make repairs yourself.
I'm not there yet but have two M620 with 4000mi and 4500mi and I'm just loving them. Last I opened the original with 4000mi on it, everything looked brand new.

 

[ak907]

Yes, I understand. My goal would be to get it for the "improvements" and underpower it and hope that the design for more power and the quoted improvements make it more reliable.

UART, which is a good point I guess I would probably need a new wire harness which would be quite annoying to do. I did no perform any changes to power output. I mainly ride in eco 3-5, occasionally do use sport 5 to get up hills. I do pull kid trailers regularly but usually for short distances and much lower speeds, most of my milage is stop and go high speed (city commuting).

I have opened bother motors up at this point. The motor from WattWaggon's was supposedly tuned up'd and greased before delivery. After it failed around 6000 miles (stopped providing power under peddle assist (If I remember correctly walk mode still worked), still turned on) I ordered a second after no being able to figure out the issue fast enough with the very very slow shipping of parts.

I greased the second very thoroughly with cornhead based on recommendations here. It made the motor significantly quieter which was nice. It lasted again ~6000 before starting to fail (grinding with every peddle stroke).

I finally got to trying to fix the first with the second having issues and I found that about 1/4 of the teeth for the motor clutch had broken off, the pawls interestingly were perfect. Also the gear first in line from the power shaft from the motor had pretty decent almost 1mm ridges from deformation. The grease was not impressive in volume. I have new gears on order (I already have new electronics).

I have been able to get the second motor up and running again by replacing the bottom bracket/peddle axel. Again I had greased it heavily with cornhead. I found there are two missing teeth in the inner part of main gear where the pawl is. The gears otherwise look good. I have cleaned it and re-greased it and am back on it as it will be a while for parts from GBK.

Perhaps I am unlucky, but it seems like there are issues. Particularly with the gears for catching power via the pawl clutch. But I have also had failures in the axel/and electronics.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Well I'm not at 6000mi yet so perhaps I have some trouble coming?
I too follow the philosophy to underpower these motors as one I don't find full power necessary and then to also add some reliability.
If your current motors are UART I highly recommend tuning them as you can definitely make the acceleration curve more natural and less stressful on components. I've set my global current down from 30a to 28a but more importantly I have my first four PAS set up tight together with minimal increases and to be very natural feeling and without large current in rushes. These first four are also my most used by far and 5 - 8 are only for the much steeper hill climbs. I've never appreciated the eco/sport option and use a display that allows for straight line 9 PAS. 9 being full power but mostly reserved for throttle implementation.
I find it interesting that the ratchet gear used with the pawls failed... If I'm thinking about it correctly aren't they only under the stress of pedaling and not the motor?
I made a mistake in the first post....
My first motor greased with Mobile SCH100 looked new when opened after 4000 mi and has a total of 5550mi ... but the grease didn't offer any of the quieting affect.
The second motor greased with cornhead hasn't been opened in the last 2600mi but it sure is quieter and has a total of 3400mi. I plan opening it again sometime in the next month or so. It's perfect riding weather now so I'm not gonna mess with it until things start getting colder.

So this all said... Having the UART programability was my main reason for choosing this motor and now that it's tuned to my liking I find it a joy to use. I also think my tweaks may be contributing to its durability. The M630 is CANbus and since I don't need more power I'm happy to stay where I am... but I can understand what you want to do.
That said my mind might change in 2000mi

 

[Timbodacious]

The Bafang ultra's of old were known to have minimal grease in them. People who used cornhead grease in them loved the outcome. Even with a beefy mid drive like the m620 you should mostly be only using 3 of the granny gears since the m620 is powerful enough to get you up to 40 mph anyways when it's unlocked. Unfortunately there's not a "what gears to run your m620 in" guide available. If you want to use an m630 on that frame, depending on your m630 motor version you will be putting out 40amps at 48v, 35 amps @52v and 30 amps at 60v so make sure the battery you already have can support the high outputs. Bafang does have a 3 speed auto hub that might fit your dropout widths and it is designed to work with the m630. (you can attempt to run a single speed rear cog and use thick 415h chain and you won't have any chain breaking problems)

I am running the m630 1500 watt version with the 60v firmware, using the automatic rear hub a510d (for fat bikes) and the bike is an absolute beast. my bike weighs a bit under 130 lbs plus I weigh 190 with my backpack on while riding. We unlocked it and so far with a 36t front and 30t rear it hits 35 pretty easily. It has "climb" mode which I love. When combined with the a510d auto shifting hub when you're approaching a hard steep climb you just slow down to let the hub go into its granny gear and when you start to climb, climb mode will keep you at 5 mph and slowly increase your wattage output to attempt to keep you at that 5 mph speed so that there is little to no wheel spin. Ive gone up 65 degree hard dirt slopes and I've consumed as little as 650 watts climbing up to around 1200 watts but I've only seen it hit its 1500 watt peak a few times climbing. I'm pretty sure i can attach my 100 lb bike trailer and pull it up the same slopes if i have traction i kid you not haha. The a510 shifts well, you barely notice it, you just feel and hear a slight thunk every time it goes into a new gear. I think the freewheel on the m630 is actually louder than the geared hub. As far as the m630 itself goes, so far there are zero issues but I'm only a few hundred miles into testing its limits. It is way quieter than the m620, I think Bafang actually put grease in the m630's lol. Pedal assist feels good, its a hybrid of torque and cadence so you get easy starts from a dead stop instead of having to push and if you're using high pedal assist levels it basically feels like a cadence sensor, you just put the weight of your leg on the crank and it takes you away. The m630 thermal throttled itself on me one time but that's because i was trying out huge front chainrings and small rear cogs and it didnt like struggling up long slopes so i changed the gearing back to normal. With your frame, on narrow tires, you will most likely do little baby burnouts in your granny gear, maybe little wheelies. with the a510d somtimes if i am rolling slowly and put in full throttle it will jerk me forward a bit and almost pull the handlebar grips out of my hands if im just casually holding on. So far it's a great motor.

 

[ak907]

The Bafang ultra's of old were known to have minimal grease in them. People who used cornhead grease in them loved the outcome. Even with a beefy mid drive like the m620 you should mostly be only using 3 of the granny gears since the m620 is powerful enough to get you up to 40 mph anyways when it's unlocked. Unfortunately there's not a "what gears to run your m620 in" guide available. If you want to use an m630 on that frame, depending on your m630 motor version you will be putting out 40amps at 48v, 35 amps @52v and 30 amps at 60v so make sure the battery you already have can support the high outputs. Bafang does have a 3 speed auto hub that might fit your dropout widths and it is designed to work with the m630. (you can attempt to run a single speed rear cog and use thick 415h chain and you won't have any chain breaking problems)

I am running the m630 1500 watt version with the 60v firmware, using the automatic rear hub a510d (for fat bikes) and the bike is an absolute beast. my bike weighs a bit under 130 lbs plus I weigh 190 with my backpack on while riding. We unlocked it and so far with a 36t front and 30t rear it hits 35 pretty easily. It has "climb" mode which I love. When combined with the a510d auto shifting hub when you're approaching a hard steep climb you just slow down to let the hub go into its granny gear and when you start to climb, climb mode will keep you at 5 mph and slowly increase your wattage output to attempt to keep you at that 5 mph speed so that there is little to no wheel spin. Ive gone up 65 degree hard dirt slopes and I've consumed as little as 650 watts climbing up to around 1200 watts but I've only seen it hit its 1500 watt peak a few times climbing. I'm pretty sure i can attach my 100 lb bike trailer and pull it up the same slopes if i have traction i kid you not haha. The a510 shifts well, you barely notice it, you just feel and hear a slight thunk every time it goes into a new gear. I think the freewheel on the m630 is actually louder than the geared hub. As far as the m630 itself goes, so far there are zero issues but I'm only a few hundred miles into testing its limits. It is way quieter than the m620, I think Bafang actually put grease in the m630's lol. Pedal assist feels good, its a hybrid of torque and cadence so you get easy starts from a dead stop instead of having to push and if you're using high pedal assist levels it basically feels like a cadence sensor, you just put the weight of your leg on the crank and it takes you away. The m630 thermal throttled itself on me one time but that's because i was trying out huge front chainrings and small rear cogs and it didnt like struggling up long slopes so i changed the gearing back to normal. With your frame, on narrow tires, you will most likely do little baby burnouts in your granny gear, maybe little wheelies. with the a510d somtimes if i am rolling slowly and put in full throttle it will jerk me forward a bit and almost pull the handlebar grips out of my hands if im just casually holding on. So far it's a great motor.

Thank you for information. To be clear you have the motor on a Watt wagons frame? one of the wide tire versions of the UCP?

I think our use cases for the bikes are very different. I am using it as a city commuting bike, a true pedal bicycle, just assisted. I do not use the throttle. I am always surprised at the speeds people say it will achieve as downhill, maybe on flat I could see it, but honestly in peddle assist 9 I have had the m620 struggle to keep me above 24 mph going up hills. It is maintaining hill speeds that I care about not top speed as I have it limited to 28. I would not want something that had so few gears, so little involvement from me as a rider so I don't think the three speed from bafang is the correct choice for me.

I have been using cornhead grease and am still seeing these internal gear issues.

I recently had my DPC18 control pad fail as well. It was odd, always trying to engage walk mode, but pressing the buttons still worked to adjust the assist but it would always kick over to walk mode. Replacing it fixed the issue so it was for sure that. Every single one of those control pads plastic circle mounts breaks frustratingly as well, I always have to zip tie them on.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Thank you for information. To be clear you have the motor on a Watt wagons frame? one of the wide tire versions of the UCP?

I think our use cases for the bikes are very different. I am using it as a city commuting bike, a true pedal bicycle, just assisted. I do not use the throttle. I am always surprised at the speeds people say it will achieve as downhill, maybe on flat I could see it, but honestly in peddle assist 9 I have had the m620 struggle to keep me above 24 mph going up hills. It is maintaining hill speeds that I care about not top speed as I have it limited to 28. I would not want something that had so few gears, so little involvement from me as a rider so I don't think the three speed from bafang is the correct choice for me.

I have been using cornhead grease and am still seeing these internal gear issues.

I recently had my DPC18 control pad fail as well. It was odd, always trying to engage walk mode, but pressing the buttons still worked to adjust the assist but it would always kick over to walk mode. Replacing it fixed the issue so it was for sure that. Every single one of those control pads plastic circle mounts breaks frustratingly as well, I always have to zip tie them on.

I've had very good luck with the APT 860c display. One has 12,000mi and the other 9,000mi without any issues. It also has the 9 PAS ability I mentioned earlier that suits me much better than 5 PAS/eco/sport.
Yeah that 3 speed auto hub is not for me at all. Having to fake it out to drop gears would annoy the hell out of me. I prefer to be in total control.
That said.. loving the Rohloff paired with the m620. It'll climb a tree to maintain 28mph using a 44t chainring and the 16t default Rohloff sprocket. I think my top speed is around 35mph...but that's not really my thing and most rides top out around 26mph
ymmv

 

[Timbodacious]

Thank you for information. To be clear you have the motor on a Watt wagons frame? one of the wide tire versions of the UCP?

I think our use cases for the bikes are very different. I am using it as a city commuting bike, a true pedal bicycle, just assisted. I do not use the throttle. I am always surprised at the speeds people say it will achieve as downhill, maybe on flat I could see it, but honestly in peddle assist 9 I have had the m620 struggle to keep me above 24 mph going up hills. It is maintaining hill speeds that I care about not top speed as I have it limited to 28. I would not want something that had so few gears, so little involvement from me as a rider so I don't think the three speed from bafang is the correct choice for me.

I have been using cornhead grease and am still seeing these internal gear issues.

I recently had my DPC18 control pad fail as well. It was odd, always trying to engage walk mode, but pressing the buttons still worked to adjust the assist but it would always kick over to walk mode. Replacing it fixed the issue so it was for sure that. Every single one of those control pads plastic circle mounts breaks frustratingly as well, I always have to zip tie them on.

Oh no I have a custom frame, there were just not many people talking about the motor online and this thread was in one of the search results. The m630 seems to be naturally geared with a little bit less top end speed compared to the m620 but that's not a problem at all, its a little torque demon. The motor should still fit your applications well you'll just have extra power there on tap if you ever need it. I mainly go for casual rides under 20 mph I'm just testing it out to see what it is capable of right now. Those control pads do feel cheap maybe that's why they are only about $10 on aliexpress haha. Where I am at i run into very steep hills and without letting the bike shift and just trying to keep it full throttle up hills it will drop to like 11 mph but like i said the hills get steep here,(san francisco style) they are not like slow grades. You're right the 3 speed might not be for you, I am still getting used to the 5 speed and how you have to mentally let the bike slow down to the correct speed for the correct gear in various hilly terrain. If you don't go with the geared hubs be careful shifting it's alot more torque than an m620.