Wanted volunteers: Tributes for Custom Quiet Gears for Ultra

[greeno]

I have been riding the 1000w Ultra with the X1 upgrade for a bit now and it has all the power I could ever want or need. I derestricted the throttle and made my programming changes soon after I got it. 90% of the time I'm in level 2 PAS ( Only 5 level choices for the 750C display ) so that's a level 3 on the DPC-18 display. I actually pedal all the time and when I do hit the "Thumb" it's going up a steep or very rocky patch and kinda "trials" through it and then pedal again. If it's a long steep section that I can get traction on maybe level 3 for a short time. But in all honesty there are a couple of climbs I'm in 4 or 5 over a tougher area to keep the momentum up so I don't stall out. Stall bad, stop, roll backwards, crash, BAD.
Is it as quiet as my old BBSHD? almost IMO. I don't even notice any sound coming from it besides the tires or my breathing, or trying to. My buddy got the 2300w motor and he NEVER even uses it he stays in ECO mode. He said whenever he had it in SPORT mode he would whisky off the trail into the bushes, not the quickest learner but he's coming around.
Probably ridden at least a dozen or more Ultra's on different bikes and WW is still the one to beat IMO. 52v also has more snap to it than the 48v Now understand when I got my motor I didn't want a gradual throttle or mellow pedal assist like they are set-up coming from WW. Sure that will get you less wear and tear on your gear and probably better range but I wanted immediate response and felt I was smart enough to maintain proper gearing when jumping on it so I wouldn't blow up anything.
Finally got my case gaskets the other day and when I get a lazy day I'm going to split the case and check the grease level and check for any signs of wear and be a little proactive instead of reactive.

 

[Ebiker33]

I have been riding the 1000w Ultra with the X1 upgrade for a bit now and it has all the power I could ever want or need. I derestricted the throttle and made my programming changes soon after I got it. 90% of the time I'm in level 2 PAS ( Only 5 level choices for the 750C display ) so that's a level 3 on the DPC-18 display. I actually pedal all the time and when I do hit the "Thumb" it's going up a steep or very rocky patch and kinda "trials" through it and then pedal again. If it's a long steep section that I can get traction on maybe level 3 for a short time. But in all honesty there are a couple of climbs I'm in 4 or 5 over a tougher area to keep the momentum up so I don't stall out. Stall bad, stop, roll backwards, crash, BAD.
Is it as quiet as my old BBSHD? almost IMO. I don't even notice any sound coming from it besides the tires or my breathing, or trying to. My buddy got the 2300w motor and he NEVER even uses it he stays in ECO mode. He said whenever he had it in SPORT mode he would whisky of the trail into the bushes, not the quickest learner but he's coming around.
Probably ridden at least a dozen or more Ultra's on different bikes and WW is still the one to beat IMO. 52v also has more snap to it than the 48v Now understand when I got my motor I didn't want a gradual throttle or mellow pedal assist like they are set-up coming from WW. Sure that will get you less wear and tear on your gear and probably better range but I wanted immediate response and felt I was smart enough to maintain proper gearing when jumping on it so I wouldn't blow up anything.
Finally got my case gaskets the other day and when I get a lazy day I'm going to split the case and check the grease level and check for any signs of wear and be a little proactive instead of reactive.

Thanks for talking about the power of the 1000W X1
Do you think with your set up a PEEK gear would survive?

Since you have gaskets maybe you could test one, maybe Pushkar would give you a deal to test it on your Ebike; after all that is what started this thread, testers are needed.

@pushkar
Can you supply a photo of the new gear?

 

[greeno]

Im sure the PEEK gear would be fine for my circumstance. My previous bike had the BBSHD and the stock nylon gear and never blew that one up. I kinda commented on testing the "New" gears back on post #19 so I don't think I'll be a huckleberry for this endeavor. My motor is running smooth now and like I said it's pretty darn quiet so I'm almost reluctant to open it up just to do it. When it starts to make any sounds like it needs to be lubed or checked I will probably do it then.

You guys do know it will cost YOU $950 for the gears and new motor casings right? Labor by YOU to swap over, and oh yeah NO WARRENTY. Cmon it's not April.

In my experience you never want to have a first edition of an item, let any bugs get worked out then jump on.

 

[Ebiker33]

Im sure the PEEK gear would be fine for my circumstance. My previous bike had the BBSHD and the stock nylon gear and never blew that one up. I kinda commented on testing the "New" gears back on post #19 so I don't think I'll be a huckleberry for this endeavor. My motor is running smooth now and like I said it's pretty darn quiet so I'm almost reluctant to open it up just to do it. When it starts to make any sounds like it needs to be lubed or checked I will probably do it then.

You guys do know it will cost YOU $950 for the gears and new motor casings right? Labor by YOU to swap over, and oh yeah NO WARRENTY. Cmon it's not April.

In my experience you never want to have a first edition of an item, let any bugs get worked out then jump on.

Yeah I don't see it that way, if you shred your PEEK gear like the nylon one before it, you replace it with the steel gear, a gear you would already have because you removed it when you put the replacement PEEK in.
There was a video of somebody who shredded a nylon gear, and all he did was open up the motor and replace the gear, and his motor worked again no issues.
Cost, 1 gasket and time. NOT $950.

 

[greeno]

Maybe I didn't read Mr. P's response correctly or you didn't. There is a sizable charge for "Volunteer Testing of this product. $450 for the (3) gears and $500 for the casing's.
If you got that covered then good on ya. FWIW make a video of the swap-out if you decide to go that way. I'm sure Pushkar would appreciate the support.
The way I see it is you basically have to build a new motor. Remove EVERYTHING in the existing motor/controller housing except the (3) gears in question and then fit those in on your rebuild of the newer unit. Then make sure all the bearings are pressed in correctly, grease is where it should be, the hall sensors are correctly aligned and oh yeah it spins freely. Does Pushkar even have a working prototype to verify everything is fit correctly.
Can I replace a controller sure, probably anything inside the case as well if I needed to but if I did that I wouldn't have an Ultra G510 anymore it would be a Ultra Greeno 510.
Spent most of my life working with engineers and as smart as they were most of them wore slip-on shoes if you know what I mean.
Everybody has a right to their opinion, this is mine and I respectfully disagree with yours. Not easy peasy to me.

 

[Ebiker33]

Maybe I didn't read Mr. P's response correctly or you didn't. There is a sizable charge for "Volunteer Testing of this product. $450 for the (3) gears and $500 for the casing's.
If you got that covered then good on ya. FWIW make a video of the swap-out if you decide to go that way. I'm sure Pushkar would appreciate the support.
The way I see it is you basically have to build a new motor. Remove EVERYTHING in the existing motor/controller housing except the (3) gears in question and then fit those in on your rebuild of the newer unit. Then make sure all the bearings are pressed in correctly, grease is where it should be, the hall sensors are correctly aligned and oh yeah it spins freely. Does Pushkar even have a working prototype to verify everything is fit correctly.
Can I replace a controller sure, probably anything inside the case as well if I needed to but if I did that I wouldn't have an Ultra G510 anymore it would be a Ultra Greeno 510.
Spent most of my life working with engineers and as smart as they were most of them wore slip-on shoes if you know what I mean.
Everybody has a right to their opinion, this is mine and I respectfully disagree with yours. Not easy peasy to me.

Yeah we were looking at it from 2 different perspectives, and you clarified exactly what you were talking about now.
My point was more after the beta testing is completed, you were talking about being the beta tester which is costly as you mentioned, sorry for the confusion.
I just thought your post could have been misinterpreted, and would scare people off that wanted to buy the finished product later this fall when it's ready to go as Pushkar mentioned, for much less money.

 

[greeno]

No worrys.
For the $ involved I don't see a big market for it to be worthwhile for WW to go through the trouble and expense. Maybe selling a completely "New" edition of the Ultra motor (complete with the X1 upgrade) for an increased cost maybe.
Just the upgrade cost alone is more expensive than a completely new G510 motor you can get off E-bay.
And to just lower the "noise level" down 5 db's.
AND it's Peek and not steel gearing. Unfortunately retrofitting the new gear set inside the existing original casings won't work either as mentioned by the man himself as the tolerances weren't precise enough. Kinda like garbage, in garbage out. Eric and the boys out in El Sagundo did the Peek upgrade for the BBSHD to the tune of I think $100. Much more acceptable and marketable.

Funny thinking about that. Changing out the super quiet nylon drive gear for the stronger, louder Peek gear.
Kinda going opposite in theory over on the right coast.

Now after all that hot air would I buy a new motor enclosure and gear set for $500? Nope.
$250 hmmmm maybe, but not a lock.

This motor has been around awhile it's just recently that more bike manufacturers have been using them so I think that's where their popularity has grown. Before Luna (slight of hand) "offered" the Aplollo bike I never even paid these powertrains no mind as any bike that was outfitted with this motor I wouldn't be caught dead on on in the canyons. Then since I couldn't get one I looked around for a bike or frame option that would support them I could actually buy and build a bike up myself if needed.
Hence my discovery of WW last Sept. Got a motor and frame from him and I'm good to go. I wish him all the best in whatever endeavor he pursues.

 

[AHicks]

Maybe I'm missing something? I thought we were talking about a single gear. This gear being very similar to the original plastic/composite/whatever gear found in the early G510 motors, that were eventually replaced by steel/metal/whatever gears (making them noticeably noisier). No?

This new gear has the same dimensions as the original composite gear, but is now using some beefier composites.

In the case of a failure of this new gear, it being composite, in my experience, I'm not too concerned about the gears it contacts being taken out with it. You could literally pull the motor down, clean out all the composite debris from the destroyed gear, install the original steel gear, and reassemble. No?

A "new" G510 is 1000 or so, the ones I saw anyway. How could that possibly compare to what it would take a DIY'er to replace a blown composite gear? I think this is where I'm loosing you.

 

[Ebiker33]

Maybe I'm missing something? I thought we were talking about a single gear. This gear being very similar to the original plastic/composite/whatever gear found in the early G510 motors, that were eventually replaced by steel/metal/whatever gears (making them noticeably noisier). No?

This new gear has the same dimensions as the original composite gear, but is now using some beefier composites.

In the case of a failure of this new gear, it being composite, in my experience, I'm not too concerned about the gears it contacts being taken out with it. You could literally pull the motor down, clean out all the composite debris from the destroyed gear, install the original steel gear, and reassemble. No?

A "new" G510 is 1000 or so, the ones I saw anyway. How could that possibly compare to what it would take a DIY'er to replace a blown composite gear? I think this is where I'm loosing you.

He is talking about the cost of being a beta tester, verses a consumer buying the single gear from WW once Pushkar puts it on his website after testing is completed....so you are correct.

 

[Merle Nelson]

When a beta tester is ready to make the plunge I'm still willing to kick in $100 toward defraying costs of testing upgrade. I like things quieter whenever possible, especially when enjoying a ride through nature.

In my reading of past posts on this I understood that looser/sloppy tolerances was a big factor in making more noise, not necessarily just that it had one more steel gear. Hence, possibly, the idea of replacing more gears and part of motor casing. (Reminds me of an identical model of car that was produced in the US and in Japan. Accept the tolerances in the Japanese version were made tighter in the transmission than in the US. US trans would go out at 60k miles, Japanese went hundreds of thousands.)

 

[greeno]

Mr. Hicks read the first post in the thread by Pushkar.
Three gears to replace not one.
Because of the higher tolerances of the new gears they won't fit into old enclosure. Otherwise why the new modified housing?
Final cost? Not specified. But sounds like you will need to purchase at the least (3) gears and a new housing. If a "New" single Peek gear from Luna cost's you a Franklin what do you think this set-up will set you back?
Luna's set-up is for a single gear made to the same specs as the old one but of stronger material which makes more noise but should last longer in theory.

Sounds like there is a differing opinion on this whole thing. Maybe the man himself (Pushkar) will give us a current update on the final offering to the end user after all the testing is complete and it's an orderable item. I might be reading into something that's not correct.

Don't forget about any kind of warranty coverage also. When you order a motor from WW and it comes with a restricted throttle and you just change the programming to a derestricted throttle you void any warranty coverage. So what do you think will be covered by changing out internals of the motor itself by a DIY guy.

 

[AHicks]

Sorry, I thought we were well beyond the development/testing stage.

Regarding warranty, the motors come from Bafang with throttles already "de-restricted". There should be no issue on that front. I thought those original setting were too aggressive and de-tuned them further to civilize it (for my purposes/riding style). If there's a warranty issue with Bafang, it's with the idea of running more than 1500w through it. I'm fine there. It's already "over the top" the way it comes for me.

For warranty for use beyond 1500w, you're going to be working with Pushkar anyway I think....

 

[Ebiker33]

Sorry, I thought we were well beyond the development/testing stage.

Regarding warranty, the motors come from Bafang with throttles already "de-restricted". There should be no issue on that front. I thought those original setting were too aggressive and de-tuned them further to civilize it (for my purposes/riding style). If there's a warranty issue with Bafang, it's with the idea of running more than 1500w through it. I'm fine there. It's already "over the top" the way it comes for me.

For warranty for use beyond 1500w, you're going to be working with Pushkar anyway I think....

Pushkar answered you in post #99 by saying

"Price at bulk will be $100 - $125.

Availability is ~60 days out - will post it for sale around Sep 1st."

To me that doesn't sound like too many gears, what I am not sure about is if he replacing the entire single gearing mechanism that the gear is attached to for the Ultra, or just replacing the single gear, like the old nylon one.
That's why I wanted a picture for clarity.
This guy
Standard Ultra Gear

 

[Tallymoo]

May be something is getting lost in translation. I clearly specified that this is for the bafang ultra.
Please note that the stock display wattage is more a guideline and not necessarily accurate (with the default, stock bafang ultra controller). You may have larger wattage pulls but you are only seeing some of the wattage readings due to lower sampling rates of the stock controller.



The original composite gear for the G510 did work but not consistently. We are producing that gear with a few additional modifications.



Price at bulk will be $100 - $125.

Availability is ~60 days out - will post it for sale around Sep 1st.

I'll take 2 the second they are available!!
Tim

 

[Ebiker33]

I'll take 2 the second they are available!!
Tim

If these get super positive testing reviews from EBR members, I think Pushkar will sell tons of these on the secondary market, there are tons of ultras out there on all kinds of different brands of Ebikes.

 

[Tallymoo]

I totally agree!!!

 

[AHicks]

Any update available for the composite gear yet?

Have I managed to miss any recent updates located in another thread/forum maybe?

Thanks, -Al

 

[AHicks]

To update, Pushkar did eventually announce the failure of his attempts due to their limited ability to hold up under fairly high amperage draws in a different topic (don't remember where). He didn't want to put anything out there that would fail as easily as his did. The tone of the note made me believe there would be no further attempts.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Thanks for sharing the update.

 

[WaxedWookie]

To update, Pushkar did eventually announce the failure of his attempts due to their limited ability to hold up under fairly high amperage draws in a different topic (don't remember where). He didn't want to put anything out there that would fail as easily as his did. The tone of the note made me believe there would be no further attempts.

If you take a look at the first post in Pushkar's city commuter thread, apparently Bafang are shipping them with nylon gears now.