Want to get into ebikes but I am a little confused now

[Johnny]

I am someone who recently returned biking after 2 years. I have a trek hybrid that I like riding and I usually use it for commuting too (around 20 miles round-trip). I can climb hills and I am kinda fit however I like to extend my range and sometimes I don't want to sweat too much in my commute.

At first I was planning to switch to a road bike then I realized that I also want to go to trails every now and then and I want some assurance that even on the days that I feel a little worn out I can still ride. So I have been having many thoughts about e-bikes.

Although I have an understanding on the electrical components (I used to build RC planes and in that hobby you deal with lipo batteries, speed controllers , chargers etc a lot) when it comes to bikes I don't know much.

I do know that I want to keep getting my exercise (so I don't want a throttle, I want some pedal assist at times to increase my range and provide convenience) and I also want to be able to completely disable it and still ride the bike without getting resistance from the motor.

I have two main options:

1. Getting a e-bike conversion kit for my current bike. I searched for a kit with torque sensor however I couldn't find and sellers in the US. If I ordered from China then the price is still too high to risk it. If someone can point me to a US based kit with torque sensors I can give it a try.

2. Just getting an ebike which is a pain altogether. I didn't know that there were so many small manufacturers. I am more into getting into a well known brand like Trek, Giant etc. since even the cheaper options (which on paper they look great value) are between 1.5k-2K,

Here are some of the bikes I had in mind,

- Giant Road E 1 https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-road-eplus, I really like a road bike and this seemed great at first but then again, it will be heavy and although I love dropbars I don't know how much of a bike I am getting and how much I am paying for the motor system.

- Trek Crossrip+ https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...srip/crossrip/p/1373000-2018/?colorCode=black, seems to be a e-cyclocross then again 4.5K price and the frame looks like an entry level model.

Now that I realized that I don't have many choices in road/gravel type e bikes I began considering more hybrid like bikes,

- Trek Super Commuter, https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...per-commuter-8s/p/1367000-2018/?colorCode=red, again too expensive and does not seem to be designed for agility or fitness.

- Giant Quick -E https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-quick-eplus, looks to be a much better choice compared to super commuter both in design and price.

The real problem is since bike is so heavy does it really matter to go for a solid fork ? I am seriously thinking about getting a bike with front suspension like the ones below.

- Trek Powerfly https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...werfly-5/p/2914600-2018/?colorCode=grey_black

-Giant Explore https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/explore-eplus-3-2019 , this one at $2.350 is priced very nicely seems to have some trail capabilities.

- Haibike hard seven https://wheelworld.com/product/haibike-sduro-hardseven-4.0-297072-1.htm

I don't know how Haibike stacks against the Brand bikes. I also don't know if the front suspension e-bikes will be good commuters on the road. It seems like since weight is not as big of an issue with e bikes the companies can still make durable bikes at those price ranges.

I also don't wanna pay $3K + for a bike since it is still a bike I don't really like to spend that much.

I will be happy if I can get some help.

 

[Dewey]

Giant Explore E+3 and it's sibling the Liv Amiti E+2 are a good choice, between the two they offer 7 frame sizes, 4 colors, and 2 slightly different geometries including a mid-step and shorter top tube length, seat tube angle, and reach on the Liv. Both come with a mid-mounted Yamaha motor and battery for centralized weight distribution, front suspension fork with 63mm travel and lock out for riding on road, hydraulic disk brakes with 180mm rotors, light weight aluminum frames, PedalPlus 4-sensor pedal assist, puncture resistant tires, good price. If you are set on swapping out the handlebars you might ask how easy it is to relocate the controls.

 

[flymeaway]

I have two main options:

Here's a 3rd...https://crazylennysebikes.com/

Court J.

 

[hurricane56]

I think the DIY option is viable if you have experience working with RC kit. You might need to pick up some bike specific tools to help with the installation process. When talking to a friend that has two DIY bikes, there's always a time allocated to tinkering and upgrading. With the big box brands, you can always upgrade the standard bike components, but you'll probably spend more time riding.

How far do you plan to commute?

 

[JRA]

"I do know that I want to keep getting my exercise (so I don't want a throttle, I want some pedal assist at times to increase my range and provide convenience) and I also want to be able to completely disable it and still ride the bike without getting resistance from the motor. "

This statement comes up often as the perception that a throttle precludes human pedal input seems to be the party line. While yes it is possible that someone could just throttle around and not pedal, in practice that is way less efficient than PAS and whoever decides to do it that way is missing out on the actual benefits of being on a bicycle rather than a scooter given the same system Watts of power they won't be going any faster and a whole lot less distance.

But if you do want to pedal for exercise having a throttle is just another way to communicate with the motor in regards to your assist needs and if used properly as efficient as any PAS. Especially if you have a cruise control function that is programmable to varying watt outputs and the proper range of gearing in your drive train. Personally I like to keep my desired pedal input/cadence apart from the motor as it feels more natural to me and I have better control over that with a throttle.

All e systems will have at least a minimal amount of resistance when not activated, if not in the motor itself, then in the added weight to the bike. There is a reason lightweight pedal bikes are desirable and the trick is to have an e system that is capable of overcoming the extra lbs. and enough more to make it worth having aboard.

 

[Johnny]

Thank you very much for the answers.

@hurricane56 : I think I will be ok with a kit and I actually enjoy installation part but again I couldn't find a torque sensing kit that is sold in US and I don't want to order it from China.

How far do you plan to commute?

Right now 20-25miles a day but I want to be able to 30+ everyday.

@JRA : I may be biased against cadence sensor only systems, I am thinking since I will be paying a considerable amount to a decent conversion kit I should be getting the torque sensor too. Also most of the riders seem to prefer torque sensors. Of course I may be wrong. In terms of weight I am ok with it, I usually ride with my backpack and I am used to riding heavy. I also prefer to ride at lower rpm's even when I am climbing (Most of my friends are the exact opposite).

@Dewey : Those two seem like really nice options. Seems 2017 Haibikes are going a bit cheaper then Giant's offerings do you think Giant is better? Also I think there are also Bosch systems which seem to cost a bit more, how do yamaha and Bosch compare. Again I usually am a low rpm rider. I also saw that most are limited to 20mph which can be a little limiting for me , is there any way to reprogram to achieve 25mph ?

thanks a lot

 

[e-boy]

Trek Verve +
$2299.99
Bosch Active Line , 20mph max assisted speed , 40Nm Torque max , no resistance unpowered , no resistance above 20mph max assisted speed
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...es/verve/verve/p/1348000-2018/?colorCode=grey

 

[rich c]

I'm a huge Haibike fan, I own two 2016 bikes. A Full Seven XDURO S RX mtb, and a Trekking XDURO S RX. Both are speed versions, 28mph, both are Bosch. You get a little noise from the Bosch mid drive (as compared to the Brose for example), but it's so smooth in handling power and torque. Personally, I feel the Bosch is worth every penny. If you ride many hills, you'll appreciate the 28mph bikes. When riding a 20mph bike, you go over that coming down the grade. But when you get to that 20mph setting as you level out, you can feel it hunt between assist and no assist. With the 28mph, you just don't hit that annoyance. Right now is the perfect time to buy a Haibike. I bought one in November 2016 and the other in March 2017. Both highly discounted from MSRP.

 

[e-boy]

Why were they highly discounted ?

 

[hurricane56]

Ok, if you want to commute 30+ miles per day it’s possible with I bigger battery 600wh, I’m thinking Brose, or Stromer. Or you can get by with going slower on a smaller battery. I do 35 miles round trip, but charge up at work. A 400wh battery pack running Bosch is just about enough to run in Turbo most of the way.

 

[Dewey]

do you think Giant is better? is there any way to reprogram to achieve 25mph ?

A comparable Haibike is the Sduro Cross 4.0 which uses the Yamaha PW motor with 3 sensors vs 4 on the Giant Explore’s Yamaha SyncDrive motor and Giant use custom software presumably to incorporate the 4th sensor. The criticism I have read online about the Yamaha-PW is the motor delivers less pedal assist after 80rpm and stops supporting at 100rpm cadence so that won’t affect you too much if you like to pedal around 80rpm. The new Yamaha PW-X and Giant version of the motor called the SyncDrive Pro support up to 120rpm cadence and are available on more expensive Haibike and Giant speed pedelec models. Giant have more brand presence in local bike shops if local warranty support is what you’re thinking about. A summary of controller over-rides is at https://www.ebiketuning.com/comparison/yamaha-tuning.html but you will void your warranty and they don’t ship to the US, personally I don’t see the point, you will probably break something so if you want to go faster just buy a speed pedelec.

 

[tallpaul]

Why were they highly discounted ?

......last years models....

I'm with Rich c above, Haibikes are very well sorted out. I have the Bosch but I think the Yamaha is pretty similar, maybe a bit more punch but not as smooth response.... again, I have the Bosch and only know about the Yamaha from what I have read.
The "symbiotic" relationship you develop between the motor and its sensors (torque, speed and cadence read about 1000 times a second, and your selection of gears, and your pedal power, make for a truly well balanced experience.You get as much exercise as you want plus help up those long hills. 30 mile commutes are well within the range of the Bosch with the 500 watt battery. I have the 400 watt battery and can easily do 30 miles on it, including some good sized hills, and usually headwinds.
Depending on what shape you are in you will more then likely find that turning the motor off will take a lot of pedal power seeing as the bikes usually weigh in at around 50+ lbs. I usually keep it in ECO mode for flat and mild terrain. In ECO I could probably get 75 miles if there was no wind and little if no hills!
Haibike mtb's are fine for the street. I have the Full Seven with the 28 mph Bosch. It eats up the bumps, which I appreciate as I am an older guy and don't care for jarring rides.
Suggest you find a dealer and take a few out for a test ride.

 

[Johnny]

@Dewey: Again thanks for the info, I didn't know that Giant customized their motors. Again when I was looking into the specifications I did not see much information about the motor. It seems Explore uses a version that is speed limited to 20, yet I see 28 mph version of the same "sport " model.

I'm a huge Haibike fan, I own two 2016 bikes. A Full Seven XDURO S RX mtb, and a Trekking XDURO S RX. Both are speed versions, 28mph, both are Bosch. You get a little noise from the Bosch mid drive (as compared to the Brose for example), but it's so smooth in handling power and torque. Personally, I feel the Bosch is worth every penny. If you ride many hills, you'll appreciate the 28mph bikes. When riding a 20mph bike, you go over that coming down the grade. But when you get to that 20mph setting as you level out, you can feel it hunt between assist and no assist. With the 28mph, you just don't hit that annoyance. Right now is the perfect time to buy a Haibike. I bought one in November 2016 and the other in March 2017. Both highly discounted from MSRP.

Thanks for the response, so you advise going for a 2017 x duro instead of an sduro ? I realize that for some models they did not state the maxspeed but should I assume that it is 28mph if the system is 350w Bosch CX ?
I think at some place that Bosch system will not accept other battery packs (and I see that Bosch insanely overprices their packs ) is it still the case?

I should find a shop and test these models.

 

[Zahid]

Hey folks .
So I️ deliver food and live in Boston ,Ma .

I’m really thinking about getting the BOar from surface604 but I️ would like to know if there’s a better option to consider before I️ spend $2,500 .

I️ just need something strong and reliable, abike that can sustain snow rain and the wear that comes from ongoing deliveries .

I️ might make a purchase in the next couple days so it would help to Hear from as many as I️ can before .Cheers

 

[Dewey]

It seems Explore uses a version that is speed limited to 20, yet I see 28 mph version of the same "sport " model. I should find a shop and test these models.

The Giant Explore is speed limited to 20mph, there isn’t a speed pedelec version of the Explore E+3 but a choice of diamond or mid-step frames. The motor is capable of higher speeds because the SyncDrive Sport motor is used on the Quick E speed pedelec model just with a higher speed limit. Court’s reviews of other bikes in the category are here https://electricbikereview.com/category/speed. If you can, try to test ride and compare ebikes with mid-drive or hub motors with a torque pedal assist sensor and a mid mounted battery as rack mounted batteries push too much weight to the rear.

 

[bob armani]

......last years models....

I'm with Rich c above, Haibikes are very well sorted out. I have the Bosch but I think the Yamaha is pretty similar, maybe a bit more punch but not as smooth response.... again, I have the Bosch and only know about the Yamaha from what I have read.
The "symbiotic" relationship you develop between the motor and its sensors (torque, speed and cadence read about 1000 times a second, and your selection of gears, and your pedal power, make for a truly well balanced experience.You get as much exercise as you want plus help up those long hills. 30 mile commutes are well within the range of the Bosch with the 500 watt battery. I have the 400 watt battery and can easily do 30 miles on it, including some good sized hills, and usually headwinds.
Depending on what shape you are in you will more then likely find that turning the motor off will take a lot of pedal power seeing as the bikes usually weigh in at around 50+ lbs. I usually keep it in ECO mode for flat and mild terrain. In ECO I could probably get 75 miles if there was no wind and little if no hills!
Haibike mtb's are fine for the street. I have the Full Seven with the 28 mph Bosch. It eats up the bumps, which I appreciate as I am an older guy and don't care for jarring rides.
Suggest you find a dealer and take a few out for a test ride.

Hey Tallpaul- Just curious, if you were referring to the '2018 Haibike XDURO XTREME 28MPH Full Seven S 9.0 Electric Bike eMTB Full Suspension Soft Tail' ? I would have liked to see a smaller more integrated motor on that model IMHO. I did not know Bosch made a 350 watt 28mph. Is that new for this year? Ride safe!

 

[hurricane56]

Haibike carried that frame over from last year. I think it was called a full seven S or something.

 

[tallpaul]

The Bosch Performance Line models will give max speed of 28mph assist, the CX models are limited to 20mph.
Haibikes choice of names and model numbers for their bikes is confusing, and seems to have changed this year to add to the confusion.
But that are beautifully made machines. The welds, fittings, and overall design are top notch.
And I have to agree with you about the cost of the batteries! but then again I don't know what goes into the making of the batteries, but still, almost $1000 for a 500w is a lot of $$$$.

 

[hurricane56]

The Bosch Performance Line models will give max speed of 28mph assist, the CX models are limited to 20mph.
Haibikes choice of names and model numbers for their bikes is confusing, and seems to have changed this year to add to the confusion.
But that are beautifully made machines. The welds, fittings, and overall design are top notch.

Yup, that’s what you pay for with most of he higher end European brands. All of the fit and finish is very detailed and high quality.

 

[bob armani]

The Bosch Performance Line models will give max speed of 28mph assist, the CX models are limited to 20mph.
Haibikes choice of names and model numbers for their bikes is confusing, and seems to have changed this year to add to the confusion.
But that are beautifully made machines. The welds, fittings, and overall design are top notch.
And I have to agree with you about the cost of the batteries! but then again I don't know what goes into the making of the batteries, but still, almost $1000 for a 500w is a lot of $$$$.

Thanks Paul. Sounds like a quality build and you get what you pay for when you purchase Haibike! Not sure why they make it so confusing for the consumer to interpret all of their different models though.