Want to get into ebikes but I am a little confused now

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks for the reply.
The bikes direct bike brakes are "TEKTRO NOVELA DISC BRAKE FR/RR 160mm Rotors". I'm sure I could easily upgrade to 180mm rotors if I felt I needed it. Unfortunately my disc brake experience is all on MTB going slow down steep mountains on my Pivot Firebird. My road bike has clinchers, so I have no idea about response characteristics at high speed.
As for battery, I plan to use max assist only until I get to see my patient about halfway through. After that, I will likely dial it down a bit to get a better workout. However, I am sure I will constantly be riding over 25 mph unless terrain/ traffic/ etc doesn't allow it. Overall riding will be closer to 300 mi / week.
I am fine with spending a bit on maintenance parts, especially since I can do all the necessary work. Its still cheaper than gas in the car.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Okay guys. Looking for a little advice. I am an ebike noob, but very experienced road biker / mtb. I used to ride my road bike on my 30 mile one way commute. I had to quit because I now see a patient on my way to and from work and couldn't really show up dripping sweat. At any rate I want to get back to riding to work. I have a 60 mile round trip commute, but I can easily recharge battery at work. I am definitely needing a pedelec bike with high top speed and range. I have been researching for a couple of month's. I don't have a lot of money to spend (ideally ~ $2k). My research had led me to the Juiced CrossCurrent S with 650W rear hub motor with 48 V/ 17.4 amp Hr battery, and I was getting ready to order for $2K, but then I found out about the Bafang BBSHD mid-drive. I have researched it, and I could order a Luna Bikes kit with the BBSHD 750 W mid drive and 52V/ 13.5 amp Hr battery for about $1350 and put it on a Bikes Direct Motobecane Elite Adventure that I can buy for $400. I would also need to add some fenders, lights, install specialty tools, etc. which would bring total price close to the same $2K.
My concerns with the Cross Current:
Limited top speed; I know it has an off road mode capable setting but it appears bike is only capable of assist up to ~32 mph.
Rear spoke breakage on hub motor: I know the bike now has better Sapim rear spokes, but no real world testing to show if the problem is fixed.

Concerns with the BBSHD mid drive build:
Drivetrain durability, chain, cassette, etc.
Range limitation with smaller battery.
No water bottle mount available after ebike conversion (I sweat A LOT when I ride hard).
Minor concern over doing the build. (I am very handy, have tons of tools, and do all my own bike maintenance).

Also I live in Utah, so my commute naturally is anything but flat. Only really steep hill is short ~ 12% grade. Everything else is reasonable. Wind bothered me more than the hills when commuting in the past.
I am 47 y/o and 5-10 and ~185# and obviously am a speed oriented rider. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

In most of these factory 28 mph ebikes, the top speed of 28 mph is attained at the highest assist setting on a level road, and with the rider pedaling hard at 100-200 watts. Many riders complain that they cannot attain the top speed but in reality you need about 800 watts of mechanical power to attain 28 mph on a semi upright heavy electric bike. A 650 watt motor needs another 150 watts effort from the rider to attain 28 mph.

At 30 mph you need 1000 watts
33 mph = 1300 watts,
35 mph = 1500 watts,
40 mph = 2200 watts,
45 mph = 3200 watts,
50 mph = 4200 watts
60 mph = 7300 watts

I have a Luna BBSHD installed to a full suspension and I also have a 500 watt direct drive (OEM Izip Dash). If you intend to cruise above 25 mph continuously, the ebike w/BBSHD will suffer from accelerated wear and tear of the drivetrain (expect to replace a whole set every 2 thousand miles). The higher your average speed, the more favorable to get the direct drive. The direct drive also preserves the brakes since it can slow down more effectively with the help of the regenerative braking.

With your intended spending at 2K with the above application and with your DIY capability, I think you are better off with a kit from Grin Technology.

9C+ Rear Kit, Advanced PAS
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

52V (14s) 16.5 Ah lithium downtube battery

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/batteries/b5216-lim-dt.html

You can slide the average speed on the chart and the bottom box will show your range for the battery. With the 858 watt hour battery you got to have 26 mph average or less to reach a 30 mile distance (with 75 watt effort from the rider).

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulato...se&blue=Lbs&wheel=700c&hp=75&grade=0&mass=110

Or you can get a fully assembled $2k CCS with similar size battery (48V 17ah) that can also reach 30 miles at the average speed of 26 mph (same as above) but overall not as speedy as the kit.

https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/crosscurrent-s?variant=36449085650

Here is another resource information on building ebikes with various power categories.
https://www.electricbike.com/12-kit-power-levels-360w-to-8000w/

 

[Rooster]

close

I hope so, it should arrive on Monday via UPS ground. I wanted to buy it locally but they didn't have a similar model and the price difference with the 2017 model was too much.

@DaveinMtAiry: I will be happy to share my eperience once it arrives.

I test rode both systems and honestly I would be happy with either. Bosch felt a little more powerful in Eco and in Turbo modes but again I liked them both.

If you are capable of the work I would definitely build your own and if you're going hub go with ebike.ca, if mid drive go with Luna Cycles, either way you can't go wrong and you know what you've got. Definitely don't go with juiced, if you want pre built, haibike or Biktrix is a good choice but down the road when you have to work on anything purpose built parts can be very expensive, especially batteries. DIY is the way to go if you have the ability. Probably one of the best I left out and the one I would go for would be Stromer, bad ass bike, but still DIY is the way to go. Good luck.

 

[DaveinMtAiry]

Sorry what is DIY?

 

[rich c]

I'm just a bit reserved about adapting a conventional bike to run at that kind of speed for an everyday commute. Sure you hit that kind of speed going down hills on a conventional bike, but no way would the original engineers considered that full use parameter in the frame design. I'd expect some frame cracking far in advance of what you would expect.
I ride Haibikes, and they will not use aluminum forks on speed pedelecs for example.

 

[rich c]

Sorry what is DIY?

Do It Yourself

 

[Chris Hammond]

Mark, thanks for the info.
A few questions.
Does a direct drive hub offer enough benefits over a geared hub to overcome the weight penalty?
I had looked at the motor simulator page last night, and put in info on the Juiced bike. The graph looked remarkably similar to the one you showed. I probably should play with that page a bit.
Do you notice any significant ride-ability issues with having a very heavy rear wheel/ rotating mass?
I know you get regen capability with DD, but does this really help with battery life on a ride? I spend nearly all my time pedaling anyway.
Thanks for the info on the Grin systems. I had seen them mentioned over the last few weeks, but I hadn't looked at them at all. (Just what I needed, another viable option to mull over.)

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Mark, thanks for the info.
A few questions.
Does a direct drive hub offer enough benefits over a geared hub to overcome the weight penalty?
I had looked at the motor simulator page last night, and put in info on the Juiced bike. The graph looked remarkably similar to the one you showed. I probably should play with that page a bit.
Do you notice any significant ride-ability issues with having a very heavy rear wheel/ rotating mass?
I know you get regen capability with DD, but does this really help with battery life on a ride? I spend nearly all my time pedaling anyway.
Thanks for the info on the Grin systems. I had seen them mentioned over the last few weeks, but I hadn't looked at them at all. (Just what I needed, another viable option to mull over.)

The DD's main advantage is durability if you intend to ride tens of thousands of miles since there are no gears to wear out inside (no maintenance needed). I don't feel the weight increase of the DD when riding since I mainly ride on the paved bike trails but I feel it when lifting to my car rack (additional 3 -5 pounds), esp with the rear biased weight distribution. For my kind of riding I don't see the weight penalty of my DD over my mid drive and I don't feel the "heavy rotating mass" at the back. The regen only extends range to maybe 3% (mine doesn't have regen) but the more tangible benefit of the regen is the braking part which significantly extends the life of your brake pads.

Here is another resource information on building ebikes with various power categories.
https://www.electricbike.com/12-kit-power-levels-360w-to-8000w/

ADDENDUM:

You might also be interested on this $2k fully assembled speed pedelec with warranty.

https://electricbikereview.com/magnum/metro-plus/

 

[Chris Hammond]

Mark,
I appreciate your responses. Its nice to get some real world info from people with ebike experience and understanding.
It seems that you are right on as far as doing a DD build as being the preferred route to go for high speed long distance commuting. I have been trying to educate myself in this area. A few questions if you don't mind.
The Grin site clearly states the 9C motors are of ??? build quality on the external housing creating some potential install issues, shims etc. Price point is only about $75 less than the MXUS motor. I would opt for the MXUS but I'd like to know if you have any insight?
Second the motors have options for standard or "fast" wiring. The site states the fast wiring is prefered on smaller wheels. However when putting them into the motor simulator, it shows higher speeds with with fast motor and lower temps. Obviously power usage is tied most closely to speed either way. I assume I will lose out on low speed torque with the fast wiring, which I am fine with as I am used to accelerating from a stop through the gears anyway. Am I missing something important here, or would I be better off with the "fast" wiring?
The grin site also refers to EM3EV for other battery options. That site clearly has lower pricing on the batteries, and also gives me an option of a 52V triangle pack with ~19 amp Hr rating. I have already read enough to be very wary of cheap batteries on the internet. Wondering what you know about the EM3EV batteries?
Thanks.
Also Magnum bikes has a shop here in Utah, I plan on trying to do a test ride on the Metro+ as soon as possible. I had decided on the Juiced over it, mainly for the bigger battery at the same price point. 13.5 vs 17.4 amp Hr. Otherwise they seem like very similar bikes.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Mark,
I appreciate your responses. Its nice to get some real world info from people with ebike experience and understanding.
It seems that you are right on as far as doing a DD build as being the preferred route to go for high speed long distance commuting. I have been trying to educate myself in this area. A few questions if you don't mind.
The Grin site clearly states the 9C motors are of ??? build quality on the external housing creating some potential install issues, shims etc. Price point is only about $75 less than the MXUS motor. I would opt for the MXUS but I'd like to know if you have any insight?
Second the motors have options for standard or "fast" wiring. The site states the fast wiring is prefered on smaller wheels. However when putting them into the motor simulator, it shows higher speeds with with fast motor and lower temps. Obviously power usage is tied most closely to speed either way. I assume I will lose out on low speed torque with the fast wiring, which I am fine with as I am used to accelerating from a stop through the gears anyway. Am I missing something important here, or would I be better off with the "fast" wiring?
The grin site also refers to EM3EV for other battery options. That site clearly has lower pricing on the batteries, and also gives me an option of a 52V triangle pack with ~19 amp Hr rating. I have already read enough to be very wary of cheap batteries on the internet. Wondering what you know about the EM3EV batteries?
Thanks.
Also Magnum bikes has a shop here in Utah, I plan on trying to do a test ride on the Metro+ as soon as possible. I had decided on the Juiced over it, mainly for the bigger battery at the same price point. 13.5 vs 17.4 amp Hr. Otherwise they seem like very similar bikes.

You're right, MXUS is the better motor. If you intend to use it on roads only (not off-roads), then I would choose high speed wind combined with large wheel (700c) and put thick rubbers (2 inches or more). Battery in the triangle 52v 19ah would be ideal in your case. EM3EV is a reputable company.
--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ3NGgx-Sgg
If you decide for Magnum, you may need to carry a spare battery. If you decide crosscurrent, it's wiser to choose the bigger battery right from the start (48V 21Ah).
Good luck.

By the way, statorade is heaven sent for all direct drive motors, it's a life saver on long uphills and it is dirt cheap, you should invest on it too.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks again Mark.
This will definitely be an on road commuter special. Only dirt its likely to see is road construction gravel roads.
You are probably right about going all in for the bigger battery. I am going to have to find a good weather day here soon so I can get a test ride in on the Magnum. At minimum it'll give me some idea about max sustained speed with the geared hub.
And yeah the Statorade seems like a no brainer at $20. I have included it in every build simulation I have done. Thanks.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Thanks again Mark.
This will definitely be an on road commuter special. Only dirt its likely to see is road construction gravel roads.
You are probably right about going all in for the bigger battery. I am going to have to find a good weather day here soon so I can get a test ride in on the Magnum. At minimum it'll give me some idea about max sustained speed with the geared hub.
And yeah the Statorade seems like a no brainer at $20. I have included it in every build simulation I have done. Thanks.

Here's a review of a typical direct drive DIY when properly put together.

Chris, make sure that you have the correct measurement of the rear drop out so the kit will fit to the frame.
--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVoueaSm2f0
The power limit is mainly determined by how much you allow the controller to provide amps to the motor. The higher the number, the more likely you're going to deplete the battery more quickly.

 

[Rooster]

You're right, MXUS is the better motor. If you intend to use it on roads only (not off-roads), then I would choose high speed wind combined with large wheel (700c) and put thick rubbers (2 inches or more). Battery in the triangle 52v 19ah would be ideal in your case. EM3EV is a reputable company.
--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ3NGgx-Sgg
If you decide for Magnum, you may need to carry a spare battery. If you decide crosscurrent, it's wiser to choose the bigger battery right from the start (48V 21Ah).
Good luck.

By the way, statorade is heaven sent for all direct drive motors, it's a life saver on long uphills and it is dirt cheap, you should invest on it too.

You don't like the crystalyte dd?

 

[Trail Cruiser]

You don't like the crystalyte dd?

They are both very close but the more expensive mxus is slightly more efficient. One mile more range than crystalite at the simulator (don't know if that is signif to you). I read somewhere that mxus supplies to a number of oem brands.

 

[Rooster]

They are both very close but the more expensive mxus is slightly more efficient. One mile more range than crystalite at the simulator (don't know if that is signif to you). I read somewhere that mxus supplies to a number of oem brands.

I was just wondering because I just bought a crystalyte h3540r and I haven't heard anything to negative about it besides the weight. Bought it from grin tech and they always do me good. Thanks, I've got a 24ah Panasonic ga battery so it should be alright.

 

[Chris Hammond]

I hadn't really looked into the Clyte motors too much. Am I missing something? Seemed like they were bigger and heavier for similar performance.

 

[Johnny]

ah lot's of things happened here .

Just an update, I received the bike in a timely manner. Since it is raining I couldn't do a test ride but assembly was uneventful. It came in the original Haibike Box brand new unassambled(it seemed to be just shipped as it was received).

The assembly went uneventful, no dings, scratches etc. Will test ride it tomorrow.

 

[Johnny]

The frame looks really nice , it is very similar to the hardnine frame. The clearances look good enough to fit something like 62x622 the disc brakes feel nice too.

 

[Johnny]

There was a heavy storm for the past 2 days so I just rode it the first time recently and a flat in the first 2 miles .

Except not being able to properly align the disc brakes and the front tire (I need a bike repair stand) it rides amazing. After fixing the flat I climb some hills and wow all I need is eco and I can consistently do 14+ mph when climbing.

So far I am truly impressed.

 

[Johnny]

I want to write a brief review but I think I will do it after putting some more miles on it.

So far I am simply in love with this bike.

I have to say I don't use anything above Eco (more like %20 off, %80 Eco) and it feels amazing. The 20mph cutoff is actually working nicely for me since keeping the speed around 19mph consistently needs a good effort and becomes a good exercise.

I have so far observed that the assistance level begins to decline around 18mph, does anybody know what the assistance curve looks like or how much it cuts after 18 ? (feels like at 19mph the cut becomes significant and at 20+ nothing which is expected).

After 40+ miles finally I hit %40 mark on the battery and I am charging it the first time.


Oh btw I was called a cheater by a road cyclist today . But with a 25lbs backpack + 50 pound bike I ran past him on eco mode, it is not too much of a cheating is it now