Varstrom/Tongsheng 1000w TSDZ16

[Masi]

I'm assuming this must be a relatively new motor. Did a search here--no results. Thinking about using a TSDZ16 for our 2nd ebike conversion (27.5" Northrock XC27). Used a Bafang 750w BBS02 for our 1st conversion on a 20" Zizzo folding bike. The Bafang's cadence-based pedal-assist is a bit cumbersome---even after a good bit of programming (1-9 PAS) via an EKD01 display (canbus version). We thought we'd give the torque sensing 1000w TSDZ16 a try.

Did some preliminary measurements and it appears the gear housing and/or chainring is going to be close to the Northrock's rear chainstay (fingers crossed there's no contact). As far as I know Varstrom only manufacturers one chainring for the TSDZ16, a 46t. The only way to adjust the offset is to place/remove clearance rings on the drive side of the bottom bracket opening. Are there adapters/chainrings available for the TSDZ16 (from a US distributor) that can provide more flexibility in terms of gearing and offset?

A number of distributors offer the EKD01 display with the TSDZ16. We like the canbus EKD01 on our Bafang so we thought we'd stick with it. Based on the pictures I've seen the TSDZ16 appears to use a round connector for the display. I'm assuming this means it's UART based? Any significant operational difference between the UART based EKD01 used on the TSDZ16 and the canbus EKD01 used on the BBS02?

Are there any other issues/gotchas we should be aware of before we pull the trigger on this TSDZ16?

Thanks!

 

[PedalUma]

@Masi, Why are you attracted to such a large motor?

 

[Masi]

@PedalUma, fair question. We're not chasing big watts in pursuit of any speed records. We rarely want/need to go much faster than 25 mph. However, we found it interesting that a number of TSDZ8 (750w) owners who upgraded to the 1000w TSDZ16 have mentioned the 16's torque sensing function is much more natural and responsive. My guess that extra 250w of headroom (and extra 40nm of torque) plays a big part in that natural, responsiveness. It would seem this would be a nice capability to have when we're in stop and go traffic or on trails where we need to start-up from a dead-stop on steep inclines.

 

[PedalUma]

torque sensing function is much more natural and responsive

I have used Tongsheng motors for eight years and over 500 installations. Now for almost two-years I am using a motor that is smaller and lighter yet fully programmable. I can program the torque sensor response through the display. A cargo bike that carries four kids will be programed very differently than a mountain bike that jumps over logs. I can also adjust the amps in three modes with five levels each, 3 x 5 = 15 levels. For one cargo bike kid hauler I set the top at 25 amps for 48V and the top rolling speed at 15 mph and lowered the temp cut-out, 25A X 48V=1,200W. I normally set the top at 18 amps for 864 watts. That motor is stamped on the bottom as 500W nominal. So, on inspection, it is legal to go on bike lanes and bike paths. The real limit is gearing. I typically set the top cadence at 110.

 

[Masi]

I have used Tongsheng motors for eight years and over 500 installations. Now for almost two-years I am using a motor that is smaller and lighter yet fully programmable. I can program the torque sensor response through the display. A cargo bike that carries four kids will be programed very differently than a mountain bike that jumps over logs. I can also adjust the amps in three modes with five levels each, 3 x 5 = 15 levels. For one cargo bike kid hauler I set the top at 25 amps for 48V and the top rolling speed at 15 mph and lowered the temp cut-out, 25A X 48V=1,200W. I normally set the top at 18 amps for 864 watts. That motor is stamped on the bottom as 500W nominal. So, on inspection, it is legal to go on bike lanes and bike paths. The real limit is gearing. I typically set the top cadence at 110.

Thanks for the reply. For what it's worth, I knew absolutely zero about ebikes two weeks ago. I'm on a crash course to quickly learn as much as I can before we commit to our next two conversions.

Thankfully, we didn't need any hand-holding when we built a battery pack for our 1st Zizzo conversion. Been building lifepo4 packs for years. Did have a slight learning curve adjusting to NMC's higher voltage. When a big chunk of conversion $$'s is spent on cells, it's nice to have a direct say in how the cells are protected, balanced, and charged (by programming the BMS and using a variable DC power supply).

Have a question: Can the Tongsheng/Varstrom TSDZ8 or TSDZ16 PAS levels be programmed in the manner you mentioned (current/temp/speed) off-the-shelf?

When we purchased our Bafang 750w canbus, we expected the worst in terms of programming (vs. UART). We were pleasantly surprised to see the EKD01 canbus display offered 9 PAS levels, plus control over max current/power, max speed, and the surge current (speed-up) threshold for each PAS level. No, you can't program it to perform like a torque sensing motor, but you can certainly make the most of its cadence sensing capability.

 

[PedalUma]

Thanks for the reply. For what it's worth, I knew absolutely zero about ebikes two weeks ago. I'm on a crash course to quickly learn as much as I can before we commit to our next two conversions.

Thankfully, we didn't need any hand-holding when we built a battery pack for our 1st Zizzo conversion. Been building lifepo4 packs for years. Did have a slight learning curve adjusting to NMC's higher voltage. When a big chunk of conversion $$'s is spent on cells, it's nice to have a direct say in how the cells are protected, balanced, and charged (by programming the BMS and using a variable DC power supply).

Have a question: Can the Tongsheng/Varstrom TSDZ8 or TSDZ16 PAS levels be programmed in the manner you mentioned (current/temp/speed) off-the-shelf?

When we purchased our Bafang 750w canbus, we expected the worst in terms of programming (vs. UART). We were pleasantly surprised to see the EKD01 canbus display offered 9 PAS levels, plus control over max current/power, max speed, and the surge current (speed-up) threshold for each PAS level. No, you can't program it to perform like a torque sensing motor, but you can certainly make the most of its cadence sensing capability.

Click this, hit the red box, down load, and read it. When you have a question, just ask. I do not know of others that can do this. https://to7motor.com/product/t154-e-bike-centre-control-panel.

 

[Masi]

Just installed a 1000w TSDZ16 (Varstrom/Tongsheng) mid-drive on our Northrock XC27 (27.5" wheels). This motor (with the EKD01 display) allows the user to select one of five PAS modes, but provides no way to program or modify how each of these operate or respond. A bit apprehensive about the lack of programmability, but we took the plunge anyway. The concern was all for naught. Just rode 35 miles with this motor a few days ago---love it!!

For my tastes (YMMV), the torque sensing function on the TSDZ16 is the cat's meow. It feels very intuitive, natural and responsive at all speeds/rpm/cadences. PAS 1 takes a decent effort to crack 20 mph. This is the setting to use if you want some legitimate exercise. PAS 2-3 feels the most natural. Good acceleration and speed with a moderate amount of effort. PAS 4-5 makes you feel like Superman!

As far as I know the only OEM chainring option for the TSDZ16 is a 46t. Had to use one 2.5mm BB spacer (two included with the kit) to gain ~1/8" clearance between the chainring and chainstay. Got lucky and ended up with a very good chainline. FWIW this motor has two connectors that support a 36-48v headlight and tail/brake light.

Max speed on throttle alone using a 11t rear cog was approx. 36-38 mph (level pavement, no wind), which equates to a chainring rpm of approx. 112. For some reason, the TSDZ16 appears to limit chainring rpm to 112 under maximum throttle. The TSDZ16's max rpm rating is 125. This 112 limit is especially noticeable in lower gears because you can feel the motor pulsing/hunting as it tries to maintain the lower rpm. Our Bafangs seamlessly reach their max rated rpm of 120-125 rpm on throttle with zero drama. It appears the TSDZ16's max rpm rating of 125 can only be achieved while pedaling. Not many folks can spin that fast for very long without clip-ons. If you use throttle most of the time, a Bafang mid-drive motor might be a better choice. I might add, the TSDZ16's throttle has a good bit more delay than our Bafang 750w BBS02's.

This motor needs plenty of juice---it can pull 32a of inrush (1600w) when accelerating. Continuous max draw is approx. 19a. It's also very heavy---motor alone weighs 13 lbs. 12 oz! We're powering it with a DIY 52v 20ah rear-rack mounted battery. Used 56, 21700 5ah cells (4p/14s) and a JBD SP17S005 50a bluetooth BMS. It produced slightly more than 20ah in a bench-top load test with an 8a load. Based on the ah's I used while testing the bike, range should be at least 40 mi. Possibly as high as 60 mi. cruising at say, 15-18 mph. Have plans to build a 52v 14ah downtube mounted battery (with 18650 cells) using a G56 Hailong battery case. Will use the Hailong for shorter rides. The downtube mount nets a lower COG and frees up the rear rack for storage or a 2nd battery.

If you're looking for a powerful mid-drive motor with torque sensing capability IMO the TSDZ16 is worth a look.