Using Flat Out in smaller tires questions

[geepondy]

I recently purchased a Trek FX+ 2 ebike with a hub motor and am mortified at the thought of getting a rear tire flat. The bike comes with 700x40 tires and as such, as a first step, I have ordered a pair of Swarlbe 700x38 (I assume the tires will fit on the 20mm rim) Marathon plus tires and am strongly considering adding Flat Out as well. My question is, in reviews, I see tests where it is added to big fat ebike tires but wondered if effective with smaller tires as well. If you have small puncture with the small tube and tire, will enough of the sealant effectively ooze out and plug the tire or more importantly, plug the tube? Also from viewing the Flat Out web site, they recommend using 8 oz for 27.5" and "less than 2"" wide tires. 38 mm is considerably less than 2", it seems like 8 oz is a lot of sealant, should I really be using that much?

Does this combination of tires and sealant offer a very high probability of not getting a flat? Do I really need to consider adding a liner such as a Mr. Tuffy as well? On my road bike I have Continental Gatorskins but although not often have still gotten flats.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I recently purchased a Trek FX+ 2 ebike with a hub motor and am mortified at the thought of getting a rear tire flat. The bike comes with 700x40 tires and as such, as a first step, I have ordered a pair of Swarlbe 700x38 (I assume the tires will fit on the 20mm rim) Marathon plus tires and am strongly considering adding Flat Out as well. My question is, in reviews, I see tests where it is added to big fat ebike tires but wondered if effective with smaller tires as well. If you have small puncture with the small tube and tire, will enough of the sealant effectively ooze out and plug the tire or more importantly, plug the tube? Also from viewing the Flat Out web site, they recommend using 8 oz for 27.5" and "less than 2"" wide tires. 38 mm is considerably less than 2", it seems like 8 oz is a lot of sealant, should I really be using that much?

Does this combination of tires and sealant offer a very high probability of not getting a flat? Do I really need to consider adding a liner such as a Mr. Tuffy as well? On my road bike I have Continental Gatorskins but although not often have still gotten flats.

myself I never found it to be as effective at higher psi. it tends ot never fully seal and can keep leaking out but thats just me.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I can't speak to some of your specifics, and I use Slime, but FlatOut seems to be a great product. I don't see why high pressures would be a problem and I don't see anything on FlatOut's website that says it only works below X PSI. I would certainly use it, or another tire sealant, regardless of tire pressure. I can imagine an argument that it should work better at higher pressures, but I don't know, and I'm not saying that's the case.

I tend to overdose my tires with Slime. Maybe up to 1.5 times the recommendation. It works great for me.

Not sure what it can hurt to give it a try. That said, there is no guarantee against flats. My attitude is that everyone who is physically able should know how and be willing to fix a flat on the road. If you're really afraid of flats the absolute best thing you can do is learn how to fix them. There are very few tools needed (easy to carry), and skills are pretty much limited to knowing how to work a wrench and some patience. Also, carry a spare tube and a pump or some CO2 cartridges. If they make them for your tires, consider carrying a Huffy Quick Change tube -- it doesn't require removing the wheel. Also, you can sometimes patch a tube without removing the wheel,

Depending mostly on where you ride, some people hardly ever have flats, some people seem to have them every time they ride.

Oh, yeah, I think there are solid rubber tires that can't go flat. There are some serious costs:benefits issues to consider though.

TT

 

[geepondy]

I can't speak to some of your specifics, and I use Slime, but FlatOut seems to be a great product. I don't see why high pressures would be a problem and I don't see anything on FlatOut's website that says it only works below X PSI. I would certainly use it, or another tire sealant, regardless of tire pressure. I can imagine an argument that it should work better at higher pressures, but I don't know, and I'm not saying that's the case.

I tend to overdose my tires with Slime. Maybe up to 1.5 times the recommendation. It works great for me.

Not sure what it can hurt to give it a try. That said, there is no guarantee against flats. My attitude is that everyone who is physically able should know how and be willing to fix a flat on the road. If you're really afraid of flats the absolute best thing you can do is learn how to fix them. There are very few tools needed (easy to carry), and skills are pretty much limited to knowing how to work a wrench and some patience. Also, carry a spare tube and a pump or some CO2 cartridges. If they make them for your tires, consider carrying a Huffy Quick Change tube -- it doesn't require removing the wheel. Also, you can sometimes patch a tube without removing the wheel,

Depending mostly on where you ride, some people hardly ever have flats, some people seem to have them every time they ride.

Oh, yeah, I think there are solid rubber tires that can't go flat. There are some serious costs:benefits issues to consider though.

TT

Thanks for the input. I can and do change flats but this is on a regular bike. The logistics involved in changing a rear flat on a bike that is twice as heavy as my road bike and with a rear hub motor seems daunting.

Also was thinking, isn't there a real chance the sealant would plug up your valve stem? How can it plug a tire leak but not plug your valve stem?

 

[fooferdoggie]

I tried flat out as a tubeless sealant it worked but all the holes would weep on each ride

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Also was thinking, isn't there a real chance the sealant would plug up your valve stem? How can it plug a tire leak but not plug your valve stem?

It can happen, but it's not common. Gravity usually directs the stuff elsewhere. And if a valve does get clogged, it will often just blow out. Worst case, remove the valve core and wash it or replace it.

TT

 

[Dmac]

I use Tannus inserts and carry Güp. I also have Co2 and a pump. I can change the flat but ugh. My hub drive is no big deal. You just have to plug it in and out. My mid drive bike has too tight a bead. I can't see myself being able to deal with changing a flat in the wild with a heavy bike or getting the tire off the bead for the other but it isn't because of the motor.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I use Tannus inserts and carry Güp. I also have Co2 and a pump. I can change the flat but ugh. My hub drive is no big deal. You just have to plug it in and out. My mid drive bike has too tight a bead. I can't see myself being able to deal with changing a flat in the wild with a heavy bike or getting the tire off the bead for the other but it isn't because of the motor.

Maybe just anecdotal, but I've found that having broken a tough bead once, it's a lot easier to break the next time.

TT

 

[Dmac]

Maybe just anecdotal, but I've found that having broken a tough bead once, it's a lot easier to break the next time.

TT

Yeah no doubt. i gave up & took it into my local shop and i heard them struggling too. I had Tannus liners when I got that flat because I got a pinch flat when I went into a big pothole with too low a tire pressure.

 

[m@Robertson]

I use Flatout on fat and skinny tires alike. I also use it as a sealant inside of tubes, and as a tubeless sealant. The only failure has been a 1" long slice/tear that destroyed the tube and damn near made the tire fail before I could get it home with a new tube inside. No issues with any routine leakage. For tubeless I am using WTB rim tape.

• Tubeless on big fat 90mm Nextie carbon fiber rims with 36x4.8 tires (formerly) and now on those same rims on 5.05" tires since I wore the 4.8's out. No negative issues. PSI is 10 on the 5.05's.
• Tubed on 32mm DT Swiss FR 560 rims in 26" on my cargo bike. 26x2.00" Marathon Plus Tour tire. 65 psi.
• Tubed on 32mm SunRingle MTX39 rims in 26" on another cargo bike. 26x2.00" Marathon Plus and Marathon Plus Tour tires. 65 psi
• Tubed on 32mm SunRingle MTX39 rims in 26" on another cargo bike. formerly 26x2.80" Vee Speedster and now Duro Beach Bums. 35 psi.
• Tubed on 35mm Stranger Crux XL 20" BMX rim with 20x2.40" Maxxis Minion tire. 45 psi.,
• Tubed on 27mm Alienation Blacksheep 20" BMX rim with 20x2.35" Schwalbe Pickup tire. 45 psi.
• Tubeless on DT Swiss FR560 rims in 26" on an emtb. 26x2.40" Maxxis Aggressors. up to 60 psi. This bike mostly sees street use so I keep the pressures high.
• Tubeless on DT Swiss FR560 rims in 29" on an emtb. 29x2.30" Maxxis Assegai and Minion. up to 60 psi but pressures usually in the 30's and 40's.
• Tubed on a couple of fat bikes. 80mm Origin8 double-wall rims, a variety of tires in the 20-30 psi range for my commuter and 6-20 on my adventure bike (depends on if I am on the trail or I have hit the sand dunes).

Also was thinking, isn't there a real chance the sealant would plug up your valve stem? How can it plug a tire leak but not plug your valve stem?

Because when you are using sealant you ALWAYS engage your brain before you hit the air valve release. Put the valve at a roughly 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock position and let it sit there for a minute. Then you can open it up. Putting it at that position lets the goo inside slither away from the valve and pool at the bottom of the wheel. The people who have clogged valves haven't followed this practice or done something else wrong.

EDIT: I'll also do as much as 4/8 o'clock depending on how much I want to just get the tire filling job over with. Its not something you have to be overly careful with. Just position the valve so its going to benefit from runoff, give it one minute to settle down and have at it.

 

[m@Robertson]

I don't see why high pressures would be a problem and I don't see anything on FlatOut's website that says it only works below X PSI. I would certainly use it, or another tire sealant, regardless of tire pressure. I can imagine an argument that it should work better at higher pressures, but I don't know, and I'm not saying that's the case.

I talked to Flatout about this specifically and their response was that tire pressure did not affect its effectiveness. Whether that is 100% true, 80% true or some other number... I've personally never had any issues with tire pressure so I'd tend to believe its 80%+

I tend to overdose my tires with Slime. Maybe up to 1.5 times the recommendation. It works great for me.

Back in the day before Flatout became a thing, I used Slime on my e-fat bikes, and the standard recommendation was to use a full 16 oz bottle of Slime on a 26x4.0+ fatty. This was exactly double the recommended dose. Just like with prescription drugs, double the dose must be twice as good. I never had any issues with doing this and I never heard of any consequences from anyone in the fat bike user group I was a moderator in where I heard this.

When Flatout came into use, doubling the dosage went away as the manufacturer tells you to use a lot of the stuff right out of the gate.

 

[fooferdoggie]

what I have found if you cant find what's in the tree and remove it nothing will work. I always had whatever it was was flu and I could not see or feel it till I took the tube out.

 

[m@Robertson]

I use Tannus inserts and carry Güp. I also have Co2 and a pump. I can change the flat but ugh. My hub drive is no big deal. You just have to plug it in and out. My mid drive bike has too tight a bead. I can't see myself being able to deal with changing a flat in the wild with a heavy bike or getting the tire off the bead for the other but it isn't because of the motor.

One of the things I try and make sure of is a rim has a depressed center area, which is what lets you unseat a tight tire bead on modern wheels, which tend to be really tight compared to bike wheels of say 10-20 years ago. On my Surly Big Fat Dummy, the factory My Other Brother Darryl rims (yes they are really called that) have no such center depression and they are an absolute nightmare to work with. Even my LBS struggled mightily with them. So I knew I had ZERO chance of even fixing a flat roadside. For that reason a custom wheelset became a requirement on a bike that, at the time, was my daily driver.

With The MYOBD rims, a tire bead removal was a 30-minute fight requiring two hands AND feet. My LBS physically snapped two tire beads trying to do it for me, and earlier I freaking cut one with shears to get a worn tire off. With the replacement wheels, it was 5 minutes' work and easily do-able on the side of the road if needed.

See the depression on this rim profile? Push the bead of the (totally deflated!) tire from one side INTO that depression. This will create some slack and you can probably get your tire bead off on the other side with a lever once you do that. If you can't, push the other side of the tire into the depression too and try again.

 

[m@Robertson]

what I have found if you cant find what's in the tree and remove it nothing will work. I always had whatever it was was flu and I could not see or feel it till I took the tube out.

I usually pull the tube out of the tire and use my lips hovering over the tube surface to feel where the air is rushing out. Since I can follow a trail of expelled goo to figure out within a narrow range where the problem occurred, that keeps me from having to sit on the side of the road and look like I am kissing the inner tube for very long.

Thankfully, sealants have come a long way in recent years. In the before-time with Slime, I would hear the expulsion of air, get the nail pulled if I could and haul ass home on my compromised tire so I could fix it there with a bathroom and a sandwich within reach. But about half the time I wouldn't make it and then I'd have to pull the tube and either fix or replace it roadside. With Flatout, I have had to do air refills only, with one exception where something metal destroyed my tube and damn near took out my tire, too. (actually two exceptions as once I undersized a tube and learned the hard way that lets a tube slip around and it tore the valve stem clean off as a result).

 

[Tars Tarkas]

The thing about sealants is that they can prevent flats. Who knows what percentage of the time, but many times you'll have a puncture and not know it because FlatOut, or whatever, seals the leak. You never even know. The serious punctures you're talking about, that need human intercession, are probably big, serious, punctures, or caused by something like a nail that's stuck in the hole, keeping it open. In that case, you might be able to pull it out and have the sealant do it's magic. You might need more air. But the possibilities are endless.

TT

 

[geepondy]

I use Flatout on fat and skinny tires alike. I also use it as a sealant inside of tubes, and as a tubeless sealant. The only failure has been a 1" long slice/tear that destroyed the tube and damn near made the tire fail before I could get it home with a new tube inside. No issues with any routine leakage. For tubeless I am using WTB rim tape.

• Tubeless on big fat 90mm Nextie carbon fiber rims with 36x4.8 tires (formerly) and now on those same rims on 5.05" tires since I wore the 4.8's out. No negative issues. PSI is 10 on the 5.05's.
• Tubed on 32mm DT Swiss FR 560 rims in 26" on my cargo bike. 26x2.00" Marathon Plus Tour tire. 65 psi.
• Tubed on 32mm SunRingle MTX39 rims in 26" on another cargo bike. 26x2.00" Marathon Plus and Marathon Plus Tour tires. 65 psi
• Tubed on 32mm SunRingle MTX39 rims in 26" on another cargo bike. formerly 26x2.80" Vee Speedster and now Duro Beach Bums. 35 psi.
• Tubed on 35mm Stranger Crux XL 20" BMX rim with 20x2.40" Maxxis Minion tire. 45 psi.,
• Tubed on 27mm Alienation Blacksheep 20" BMX rim with 20x2.35" Schwalbe Pickup tire. 45 psi.
• Tubeless on DT Swiss FR560 rims in 26" on an emtb. 26x2.40" Maxxis Aggressors. up to 60 psi. This bike mostly sees street use so I keep the pressures high.
• Tubeless on DT Swiss FR560 rims in 29" on an emtb. 29x2.30" Maxxis Assegai and Minion. up to 60 psi but pressures usually in the 30's and 40's.
• Tubed on a couple of fat bikes. 80mm Origin8 double-wall rims, a variety of tires in the 20-30 psi range for my commuter and 6-20 on my adventure bike (depends on if I am on the trail or I have hit the sand dunes).

Because when you are using sealant you ALWAYS engage your brain before you hit the air valve release. Put the valve at a roughly 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock position and let it sit there for a minute. Then you can open it up. Putting it at that position lets the goo inside slither away from the valve and pool at the bottom of the wheel. The people who have clogged valves haven't followed this practice or done something else wrong.

EDIT: I'll also do as much as 4/8 o'clock depending on how much I want to just get the tire filling job over with. Its not something you have to be overly careful with. Just position the valve so its going to benefit from runoff, give it one minute to settle down and have at it.

Thatj's good advice. I never pay attention to what position the tire is in when deflating but I will if flat out is present.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I usually pull the tube out of the tire and use my lips hovering over the tube surface to feel where the air is rushing out. Since I can follow a trail of expelled goo to figure out within a narrow range where the problem occurred, that keeps me from having to sit on the side of the road and look like I am kissing the inner tube for very long.

Thankfully, sealants have come a long way in recent years. In the before-time with Slime, I would hear the expulsion of air, get the nail pulled if I could and haul ass home on my compromised tire so I could fix it there with a bathroom and a sandwich within reach. But about half the time I wouldn't make it and then I'd have to pull the tube and either fix or replace it roadside. With Flatout, I have had to do air refills only, with one exception where something metal destroyed my tube and damn near took out my tire, too. (actually two exceptions as once I undersized a tube and learned the hard way that lets a tube slip around and it tore the valve stem clean off as a result).

fenders make it it harder to find it. usually I would go into a store and find the tire flat when I came out. usually I found the hole too big to hold air long enough to find it. went to the tea store today on our tandem to get a setting changed he had the bike on the lift when he heard a pop should and the back tire lost air. was thinking it was low on sealant i added more and aired it up and spun it. seemed fine. as we were rolling out the door i heard the dressed hiss. felt the sire and found something sharp sticking out pulled it out and rolled the tire and was back on the bike. First time I found something stay in the tire on a tubeless setup.

 

[Nvreloader]

I have been running Flat Out in the 4.5" and I am running about 5#'s under the max psi for the OEM tires fat tires of the Wart Hog since I got the bike in 12/21.
We have a Blue Billion of those +_)(**&$#+_*&^% Goat Heads around here, and so far I have NOT had any flats from anything, (Knock on wood), and I have everything on the bikes to repair a flat, or replace a tube/tire.
I wish, I would have had Flat Out in the early 60's, for my bikes and Honda Trail 90 bike, it would have saved me untold hours of patching them tires.
I even had very used tires inside the outside tires, to stop those GH stickers, it helped but a least once a week I had to patch tubes.

IIRR, I put 10 oz's in each tire, I also put Flat Out in the new Jugg 4 4x4.0" bike tires, with 10 oz's in each of it's tires.. ymmv

 

[6zfshdb]

I use slime in my Marathon Plus, 26 x 2.25 tires with heavy duty tubes and Tanus Armor inserts. I've had no flats, knock wood, in over 7000 miles.

The slime does occasionally foul the valves, but they are easily cleaned by removing & washing the cores. I minimize the problem by storing the bike with the valves close to the top of the tire.

 

[Avg_Joe]

I have used FlatOut on 42, 44, 47mm tubeless tires now and it's mostly worked fine, typically never above 45psi and ordinarily high 30's/low 40's.

Recently I had a problem with Specialized Pathfinder Pro 650bx47mm (tubeless), it kept losing air. I'd pump it up and could not find any leak via any means. The air loss only occurred when riding, duh. There was a small black rock in the tire alongside the center strip that looked like a shark tooth: when I pulled it, sealant shot out. I still had to stop and pump about every mile to avoid walking the bike back. Hole never fully sealed, it was maybe 3mm long. Used a self-vulcanizing plug, and now carry that every ride. Kinda bummed, I thought FO would handle such a small cut.