USDA Forest Service Wants Comments

[Cowlitz]

I just saw this. The Forest Service, which is a whole different agency than the Park Service--Forest Service is under Dept. of Agriculture, Park Service is Dept. of the Interior, is considering changing their rules on ebikes and is soliciting comments. Here is the link. At this time, the USFS considers ebikes to be motorized and does not allow them on bicycle trails.

Forest Service Manual 7700 Travel Management; Chapter 7700, Zero Code; Chapter 7710 Travel Planning

The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), Forest Service, is proposing to revise its directives to update and clarify guidance on management of electric bicycle (e-bike) use on National Forest System (NFS) lands. E-bikes have become increasingly popular nationwide among outdoor...

www.federalregister.gov

 

[reed scott]

Better that we contact our particular reps and governors to reign in these ill-informed regulators.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Better that we contact our particular reps and governors to reign in these ill-informed regulators.

You can do that also, but it won't make much difference. Legislators make laws. Departments, Bureaus, etc. make regulations. Filing a comment is more likely to have an impact.

 

[reed scott]

You can do that also, but it won't make much difference. Legislators make laws. Departments, Bureaus, etc. make regulations. Filing a comment is more likely to have an impact.

Maybe. But I suspect the Forest Service has already made up their minds. They need to be reigned in. Who do we know who likes to shut down over zealous regulators?

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Maybe. But I suspect the Forest Service has already made up their minds. They need to be reigned in. Who do we know who likes to shut down over zealous regulators?

This is not a political forum. We're talking about ebikes on Forest Service lands, not regulators. Plenty of other places to blow that horn if you like.

 

[reed scott]

This is not a political forum. We're talking about ebikes on Forest Service lands, not regulators. Plenty of other places to blow that horn if you like.

I'm dead serious Bruce and I resent your implications.

 

[reed scott]

This is not a political forum. We're talking about ebikes on Forest Service lands, not regulators. Plenty of other places to blow that horn if you like.

YOU brought up an immensely political subject.

I wanted to type imminently but auto correct decided differently. Either one.

 

[J.R.]

I've been surprised a few times over the past couple years, with regard to access for ebikes. First it was the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources changing their mind and allowing class 1 ebikes to ride anywhere bikes are allowed in state forests, game lands and parks. It took some work to achieve this, mostly driven by hunters. PA has a lot of state land. America's first professional forester was Gifford Pinchot, he was the man behind all the national land conservation in the Theodore Roosevelt administration. At one point he was Pennsylvania Governor and he set out to make sure every resident of Pennsylvania was within 25 miles of park land. Big state, a lot of bike trails that are now open to class 1 ebikes.

Then the National Park Service approved ebikes wherever bikes are allowed. The park service goes by whatever the state allows where the park is located. Who'd have thought?!

Finally my county in PA legalized class 1 ebikes for use on the trail system. It took a year to get the formal regulations put in place. They were willing to take the time to learn about ebikes. They even showed up to a demo ride.

I think this comment period is a good sign of things to come. It shows they are at least willing to listen and hopefully learn.

Most of the ebikers I know are older and have paid a lot in taxes for these great outdoor spaces. Yes, I know, we are the rabble. Well Jimmy said it best when it comes to us, the rabble.

We do most of the working, paying, living and dying. Is it too much to ask to have a place to ride 13 mph on our ebikes?

 

[legsofbeer]

I'm not getting why there's so much negativity in response to this. From a status quo of no ebikes on BLM land, they are moving towards permitting some ebikes. Did someone not read the summary at the link?

Still worth commenting. I'd like to see class 1 and 2 permitted on singletrack, class 3 on fire roads.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

My $0.02

There are literally thousands of miles of logging roads and fire roads that are lightly traveled and are great cycling. I'd also say that the vast majority of e-bikes, even "e-mtbs", are awkward barges on technical singletrack and you'd leave a trail of bike parts, curse words, and bloody stains on the granite if you tried to ride your e-bike on such trails.

I live in a very popular recreation area, and I can easily ride for hours on back roads here and not see another person, in a car or on a bike. I can usually pull that off on holiday weekends too. So there is no serious shortage of places to ride.

There are a lot of injustices in the world. Being prohibited from riding my e-bike wherever I damned well please doesn't even make the top 100.

 

[Cowlitz]

I may have broken the rules a few times riding in a questionable area where the sign says motorized vehicles not allowed. At the same time it looks to be frequently used by woodcutters and I've seen dirt bikes go by. So, I figure that's a sign for the winter, as it is a cross country ski area then. Never been challenged on it. Everybody also seems to close the gate.

The trails/two track roads go through state and federal lands.

Sounds like folks did not take their happy pills today.

 

[elyhim]

My $0.02

I'd also say that the vast majority of e-bikes, even "e-mtbs", are awkward barges on technical singletrack and you'd leave a trail of bike parts, curse words, and bloody stains on the granite if you tried to ride your e-bike on such trails.

Are you high? An emtb is meant to be a bicycle and ride on all singletrack. I am SUPER excited about this comment period for USFS and cannot wait to ride legally all that technical singletrack.

 

[Code54]

Did anyone actually leave a comment on their site? I found how I can read everyones posted comments but not where to leave a comment. This whole class 1 or 3 stuff is silly to me - like saying you cant drive a Mustang, Vette, or Camaro on a certain road because it CAN go over a certain speed. Seems a lot simpler to do it the same as we do on a road - post a speed limit and be done with it.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Are you high? An emtb is meant to be a bicycle and ride on all singletrack.

Where do you actually ride technical singletrack?

There are four things going on with "e-mtbs":

1. The vast majority of e-mtbs sold and made are really "city bikes with mountain bike styling". This includes nearly all low-end bikes and more than a few quite expensive ones. They are basically jokes as far as real mountain biking goes, and quite possibly unsafe for a rider in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is a lot more to a mountain bike than big tires and a suspension.
2. E-bikes are all heavy, which glues them to the ground and makes it difficult to bunny hop over obstacles or bounce your rear or front wheel around to get through a tight space.
3. Most e-mtbs have, on the average, a longer wheelbase which makes them more stable but makes them a lot less maneuverable.
4. Related to #3, mid-drive e-mtbs are forced to have a longer chain stay length to keep the front wheel on the ground when climbing a steep hill in low gear. Again, this has a huge maneuverability cost.

Note that even a fairly modest change in geometry, like 1cm or 2cm longer chain stay length, makes a huge difference in a how any bike handles.

If you disagree with me, you are free to prove me wrong. If you send me a video of you sending this trail on an e-mtb I will admit I am wrong:

There are badass trails closer to home for me, but I'm not inclined to share.

 

[J.R.]

My $0.02

There are literally thousands of miles of logging roads and fire roads that are lightly traveled and are great cycling. I'd also say that the vast majority of e-bikes, even "e-mtbs", are awkward barges on technical singletrack and you'd leave a trail of bike parts, curse words, and bloody stains on the granite if you tried to ride your e-bike on such trails.

I live in a very popular recreation area, and I can easily ride for hours on back roads here and not see another person, in a car or on a bike. I can usually pull that off on holiday weekends too. So there is no serious shortage of places to ride.

There are a lot of injustices in the world. Being prohibited from riding my e-bike wherever I damned well please doesn't even make the top 100.

I live close to a state park that has a lot of technical single track. It takes a lot of skill to ride there or your riding slow. I have ridden there a few times and because it's so big I rarely see other riders on off peak hours. I know people that do ride it and they travel a good distance to do it. They should be able to ride these public lands that are designed for it.

Our state land class 1 access has a slight modification and that is the weight limit. The DCNR took the time to study the issue and the ebikes and determined 75 pounds was the limit. That's 25 pounds lighter than the norm, still sounds heavy to me, my bike is 50 pounds.

I'm not big on technical single track, but that's not the only riding opportunity on Forest Service land. One group that pushed for state land access here was hunters. Like it or hate it, hunting plays a big part of animal population control and it's big business for many areas across the nation. Allowing ebikes to use Forest Service land will be a boon to the industry and the people that make a living from it. There's also modified cross country and trekking opportunities on these lands.

Injustice? I don't see anyone claiming victim status. And I definitely don't have a top 100 list. What I might think is a top injustice will never be the same as the next guy. I'm glad you are privileged enough to have all the places you could ever want to ride. That's not a snipe. When it comes down to it I have more than enough places to ride too, directly from my back door. I'm not everyman. I don't live in a population center. Can you imagine someone living in an apartment in a city, with Forest Service land 60 miles down the road and you're told you aren't allowed to ride it? You're told to go ride the city park concrete path, a 5 mile concrete strip.

There's nothing wrong with discussing these public spaces we all pay for. Studies have been done and more will be done. Change is constant. If too many ebikes hit the trails, if trails are damaged, if people get hurt adjustments will be made. At the moment it is just a discussion and we don't have enough rational discussions for issues these days. I'm grateful to hear contrarian viewpoints. We'd never learn a thing without them.

 

[elyhim]

Where do you actually ride technical singletrack?

There are four things going on with "e-mtbs":

1. The vast majority of e-mtbs sold and made are really "city bikes with mountain bike styling". This includes nearly all low-end bikes and more than a few quite expensive ones. They are basically jokes as far as real mountain biking goes, and quite possibly unsafe for a rider in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is a lot more to a mountain bike than big tires and a suspension.
2. E-bikes are all heavy, which glues them to the ground and makes it difficult to bunny hop over obstacles or bounce your rear or front wheel around to get through a tight space.
3. Most e-mtbs have, on the average, a longer wheelbase which makes them more stable but makes them a lot less maneuverable.
4. Related to #3, mid-drive e-mtbs are forced to have a longer chain stay length to keep the front wheel on the ground when climbing a steep hill in low gear. Again, this has a huge maneuverability cost.

Yeah - I get it. The Levo SL is different for size but I would not have a problem with most of the North Shore trails in the video on any of my bikes. The longer ones like the Trek would be hardest to manage. From the video the skinny and the short turn on the wood feature would be the hardest for me. The consistent application of force for the skinny entrance is an issue and while the long chainstay for the larger emtb's prevents turning ease it makes manuals and front end placement easier. The wooden rollers and steep descents aren't an issue.

 

[elyhim]

Thank you for your concern and for bringing this to our attention. The comment you see in Dave's name was not made by Dave and does not represent IMBA. It is fraudulent. We have contacted the Forest Service to have the comment removed.

IMBA supports trail access for Class 1 eMTBs and supports shared use on trails as long as access is not lost or impeded for traditional mountain bikes. IMBA recommends separate management and advocates for all local stakeholders to be involved in those management decisions. You can read our full position here: https://www.imba.com/education/emtb

 

[Art Deco]

Snip/
There are a lot of injustices in the world. Being prohibited from riding my e-bike wherever I damned well please doesn't even make the top 100.

What Coffee said above. Although many share this attitude, whenever public officials try to remove an injustice or two, there is always someone oppossed who will scream loudly. Ebikes and Ebikers are usually silent.

 

[Jeff Winner]

Better that we contact our particular reps and governors to reign in these ill-informed regulators.

No reigning required. The revisions do not categorically allow or deny e-bike use. The existing USFS rules do not contain guidance to deal with e-bikes. If enacted, the rule changes will adopt definitions and categories for e-bikes. These changes will provide the framework for the USFS to specifically designate appropriate e-bike roads and trails use when considering travel management objectives, along with all of the other transportation modes. Comments I reviewed mostly tilt towards banning e-bikes, though that is not the proposed change either.

Edit: Link to the Federal Register summary: https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...r-7700-zero-code-chapter-7710-travel-planning

 

[DougC]

Where do you actually ride technical singletrack?

There are four things going on with "e-mtbs":

1. The vast majority of e-mtbs sold and made are really "city bikes with mountain bike styling". This includes nearly all low-end bikes and more than a few quite expensive ones. They are basically jokes as far as real mountain biking goes, and quite possibly unsafe for a rider in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is a lot more to a mountain bike than big tires and a suspension.
2. E-bikes are all heavy, which glues them to the ground and makes it difficult to bunny hop over obstacles or bounce your rear or front wheel around to get through a tight space.
3. Most e-mtbs have, on the average, a longer wheelbase which makes them more stable but makes them a lot less maneuverable.
4. Related to #3, mid-drive e-mtbs are forced to have a longer chain stay length to keep the front wheel on the ground when climbing a steep hill in low gear. Again, this has a huge maneuverability cost.

Note that even a fairly modest change in geometry, like 1cm or 2cm longer chain stay length, makes a huge difference in a how any bike handles.

I don't consider my Trek FS5 powerfly a city bike at all. That's what my XM700 is for. Due to my age, fitness level, and riding experience, I do limit myself to the easier single track when on the FS5, but I consider it a trail bike; and of course, it also works well on dirt and gravel roads. Trek does make a long travel version that, now after having been a few trails with lots of rocks and roots, I can see how that might work better here in Utah. I don't like riding it on pavement. Prefer narrower road tires for that and definitely not knobbies. The 700c tires on the XM700 work well for that. And also, I don't like being limited to 20mph of assist when on roads. The only maneuverability issue I've had is with being lazy and not adjusting the front suspension for more stiffness before going up a steep tricky incline. I'm a beginner, so I could be wrong, but having the front wheel bounce back at me makes staying on line a little challenging.