US proposes 25% tariffs on Chinese ebikes

[MisterM]

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/ind...ses-25-tariff-china-made-e-bikes#.WyoWcvJlAad


Another ridiculous tax on US consumers.

 

[Ebikefevercure]

They created an economy dependent on China industry and then drop a tariff?... Systemic klepto-crats own the companies pulling the strings. They are purposely creating Discord while cutting each other taxbreaks and we get to eat the bill. They should have never gotten rid of American industry now they'll just use Self-selve checkouts and robotic engineering for 24hr labor without breaks. They been f#@$%&%$ us and we are far from out of the woods.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Trade is too complicated to intelligently discuss in an on-line forum. The fact of the matter is that most elected officials don't really understand the ins and outs of trade policy -- and that isn't for lack of intelligence or effort. The further fact of the matter is most people (even very nice and intelligent people) on on-line fora know even less about trade than elected officials do.

This is too complicated and too important to have it reduced to bumper-sticker slogans. This is a big complicated nest of snakes and if you push too hard on one part the snakes in some other corner will bite you.

 

[Ebikefevercure]

Bring back American made products. My bike would be readily available plus building economy and feeding my neighbors.

We could talk trade but, you're right. There isn't enough intelligence online to have a constructive conversation without the overwhelming someone. Although, the topic of this post Is about trade so, let's talk about that.

It started when Mr. Clinton removed the tariffs that opened oversea investment companies in the 90s and Every leader since has allowed it to get easier. Trump has invested in many countries for tax saving and cheap labor so, this charade isn't fooling anyone with intelligence. He's just picking the ones that don't like him. All of our recent leaders in my lifetime have been making moves for their own personal gain. O-bomb-a blew our military budget and helped his friends too just like HC would have or anyone who they allowed to be 45 for that matter. They are all garbage muppets if you pay close attention. If we've been given a little, they've been given a whole lot. That's objective...

Every order we send to China through Amazon, eBay, Alibaba and the list goes on, kills the American dollar for that "good deal". When the kids ordering today turn 30 the deals will be gone and they'll battle 3rd world wages just to keep a job, as they have designed it. (Also objective)

This is not a rant, just blatant observations. Hope you had read this softly to yourself. You don't need a degree to pay attention to what's really happening. America should be way more self-reliant but, there should have been a softer path to achieve that. We have the technology and the Manpower, objectively...

Capitalism wins again...

 

[jazz]

Make E-bikes Great Again!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

 

[Deleted member 4210]

This could take a while to play out. A lot of these proposals by the Trump administration are purely tactics in order to restore some semblance of balance in the trade equation. Each of the products on the list are chosen strategically, but it could be awhile before anything is actually implemented. Even with a July 6th 'deadline'. Ultimately this could lead to significantly more benefits for US consumers, as it will prompt US OEM's and other marketers not to place such heavy emphasis on sourcing too much product from any one country. I think that is the aim and the play here by Trump longer term, and while yes there is going to be some short term consternation, and a lot of hand waving from both sides, it will be healthier in the longer term to have a lot of these products sourced from a multitude of geographies. Low cost labor is not necessarily the best decision point to make quality products. I would not however anticipate any quick near term decisions for OEM's to start actually MAKING e-bikes here in the US, because the manufacturing base for 90% of the components on any bicycle is still largely Asia. Assembling here won't put much of a dent in that equation either.

A whole lot of would be initial consumers are still on the fence on their e-bike purchases, so this may actually be in the favor of the industry short term, to encourage those consumers to buy now before a risk of price increases.

 

[MisterM]

This could take a while to play out. A lot of these proposals by the Trump administration are purely tactics in order to restore some semblance of balance in the trade equation. Each of the products on the list are chosen strategically, but it could be awhile before anything is actually implemented. Even with a July 6th 'deadline'. Ultimately this could lead to significantly more benefits for US consumers, as it will prompt US OEM's and other marketers not to place such heavy emphasis on sourcing too much product from any one country. I think that is the aim and the play here by Trump longer term, and while yes there is going to be some short term consternation, and a lot of hand waving from both sides, it will be healthier in the longer term to have a lot of these products sourced from a multitude of geographies. Low cost labor is not necessarily the best decision point to make quality products. I would not however anticipate any quick near term decisions for OEM's to start actually MAKING e-bikes here in the US, because the manufacturing base for 90% of the components on any bicycle is still largely Asia. Assembling here won't put much of a dent in that equation either.

A whole lot of would be initial consumers are still on the fence on their e-bike purchases, so this may actually be in the favor of the industry short term, to encourage those consumers to buy now before a risk of price increases.

This is foolish policy. All it does it does is create manufacturing whack-a-mole to evade tariffs. Chinese companies will simply move to lower cost countries (lower-wage Vietnam already has a nacent ebike industry for this exact reason). The blame is squarely on the backs of US consumers because they insist on buying the cheapest product (hence the rise of Walmart). Few will manufacture/assemble low-skill product in the US when the min wage is 10-20x more than in 3rd world countries, simply because nobody values Made In America (other than as a convenient slogan to excite the base in advance of elections - then it's all forgotten and the real agenda is taken care of - tax cuts for the 0.01% and corporations).

 

[Mr. Coffee]

This is a rant.

I don't understand those who think we've gotten a 'bad deal' with our trade policy. A quick look at our history is that America's championing of free and open trade since WWII helped reindustrialize those countries devastated by WWII. In the longer term, that policy helped turn former enemies like Japan and Germany into loyal allies. In the even longer term, that policy ultimately brought down the Soviet Bloc. Since then, that very policy and philosophy has brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and let them live halfway decent lives.

Yes, more than a few Americans lost their jobs in the pursuit of that policy and if our government was as decent and compassionate as it ought to be we would help those people who were screwed over. But you have to admit that American policy over the last 70 years has worked pretty well to prevent major wars, saved hundreds of millions from desperate poverty, and at the same time has greatly reduced price inflation here at home.

If you want to do a little digging, the last time an international trading system broke down it eventually led to the Great Depression and WWII. The time before that led into WWI. That doesn't necessarily mean that history will repeat itself but given the catastrophic consequences last time we might want to be a bit careful trashing the international trading system. And the fact that the global trading system today is much more complex and much, much larger should make all of us very nervous.

Full disclosure: I've worked for and started several companies that managed to manufacture hi-tech products in the States that were vigorously exported overseas. I'll say there is also much, much more to the manufacturing equation than who has the cheapest labor, lowest taxes, and lightest regulation.

 

[Ebikefevercure]

I'll say there is also much, much more to the manufacturing equation than who has the cheapest labor, lowest taxes, and lightest regulation.

Yes but, as you know, All costs are passed on to the customer, including 35% for every middleman. No matter what you sell your resources come from only a few sources. Break it down to the origin of every material used...

They don't want the fancy cars. They have controll of all the materials to make them. Metaphorically and literally speaking.. You're speaking of companies nowhere near their capacity... With all due respect, you could have been big but, not be on their plane of financial existence, much bigger than they want us to know...

If any leader rebuilt Detroit to motor city I would kiss their a** but, that's never the agenda. Lets see if American industry grows and who suffers. We'll survive either way.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

What is really disappointing is this administration has included things like batteries, solar, renewables into the trade war.
Nobody is going to go back to the rotary dial phone and similarly, nobody is going to switch to coal. Without killing animals, polluting our oceans, if we have to live, it has to solar and EVs for the sustainable future. There are 100 other things they could impose tax and tariffs on but...
hurting thriving industries like EV's, Solar, E-bikes is such a knee-jerk reaction. It would be really frustrating and disappointing if this ever goes into full effect.

I hope people will still purchase E-bikes even if the prices increase by a little and still recognize the awesomeness of the whole E-bike thing.

 

[Reid]

This is a rant.

I don't understand those who think we've gotten a 'bad deal' with our trade policy. A quick look at our history is that America's championing of free and open trade since WWII helped reindustrialize those countries devastated by WWII. In the longer term, that policy helped turn former enemies like Japan and Germany into loyal allies. In the even longer term, that policy ultimately brought down the Soviet Bloc. Since then, that very policy and philosophy has brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and let them live halfway decent lives.

Yes, more than a few Americans lost their jobs in the pursuit of that policy and if our government was as decent and compassionate as it ought to be we would help those people who were screwed over. But you have to admit that American policy over the last 70 years has worked pretty well to prevent major wars, saved hundreds of millions from desperate poverty, and at the same time has greatly reduced price inflation here at home.

If you want to do a little digging, the last time an international trading system broke down it eventually led to the Great Depression and WWII. The time before that led into WWI. That doesn't necessarily mean that history will repeat itself but given the catastrophic consequences last time we might want to be a bit careful trashing the international trading system. And the fact that the global trading system today is much more complex and much, much larger should make all of us very nervous.

Full disclosure: I've worked for and started several companies that managed to manufacture hi-tech products in the States that were vigorously exported overseas. I'll say there is also much, much more to the manufacturing equation than who has the cheapest labor, lowest taxes, and lightest regulation.

I agree so wholeheartedly. Free trade has helped every person in this world. Those who lost jobs exported have the benefit of the goods they need at vastly lower prices.

Anyone of an age remembers how much we used to pay for lousy goods (and USA-made consumables like cars and televisions were nothing so durable or troublefree or as safe as today). God, we made so recalcitrantly crappy consumables back in the era when the USA actually made most of its own requisites....

Were it not for cheap Chinese goods we would not be living so well today. Now that is all to be diminished. More jobs will be lost than gained by trade protectionism. Ain't we got (not) fun?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Yes but, as you know, All costs are passed on to the customer, including 35% for every middleman. ...

How do you figure that?

If a business could raise the price of their product with no decrease in sales that business was leaving money on the table before that price increase.

In the real world, when faced with a situation where one of their sources increases in price, three things can happen: the price of the end product can go up, the profit margin on that product can decrease, or fewer of that product will be sold. In all but the simplest situations the result will be a combination of all three of those things. Actually predicting what will happen in the real world is somewhere between very hard and flat out hopeless.

 

[slomoshun]

...Anyone of an age remembers....

The USA's good stuff allowed the allies to win WW-II. I was around and remember that, except for butt-ugly cars, we made very good consumables in the 50's compared to the rest of the world. At that time, anything made in "Occupied Japan" was real crap... but less expensive than US products. To lower production costs and increase profits, corporate America began to have products made in Japan... and they shared the technology. We gave away the TV industry for immediate corporate profit gratification. Japan was a disaster after WW-II and was eager to recover, so they worked hard to create high quality products for America. Eventually, in the 60's Japan became the quality leader. That was a time when many US jobs were lost to the Japanese.

Years later, as Japan's standard of living improved and their production costs creeped up, corporations moved to a lower priced country... China. They did the same 'sell the farm' corporate maneuvers that were used in Japan. You older people will recall the black-pajama, 'little red book' Mao years when China was waaay behind the world's technology curve. They were a sweatshop country. The world handed China jobs and technology and with that they managed to take over the world without firing a shot simply by keeping the value of their currency at a false low. That allowed them to make the world's consumables at less cost than any other country. The result closed many thousands of businesses in every industrial country because they could not compete and make things as cheaply.

As a result of that evolution, the US consumer has become comfortable with cheap commodities and thinks it's the norm. It really isn't, the Walmart mentality is an illusion. I suspect that the current US administration has a 'pie in the sky' fantasy that they can return production to the US by simply adding a tariff to Chinese-made stuff. Maybe, but it's going to hurt a LOT of consumer's wallets with higher prices for a long time before things recover to the perceived old days. Higher prices could tank the economy. During the farm sale, the US lost much of its knowledge and ability to produce quality products. It's going to take time to re-educate and recover, but hardship motivates.

Regarding ebikes in this situation, they will continue even if China disappeared from the Earth. Any technological country could manufacture what China contributes. Bafang is probably the highest profile Chinese player in the e-motor game, but Bosch, Shimano and the others could take up the slack. Ebikes are going to cost more, adjust to it.

Pondering things, I wonder what would happen if the world's productive countries all put tariff's on Chinese goods. That might be a move that succeeds in leveling the playing field. Then, products might sell based on their quality and not so much the price.

 

[Ebikefevercure]

In business the margin only suffers as long as it has too. Then letters are sent for the need to increase, essentially raising consumer costs. I run a bankable multimillion dollar company too. The cost is ALWAYS passed on to the bottom man. Every Derber knows that...

Also known as inflation

 

[Ebikefevercure]

Were it not for cheap Chinese goods we would not be living so well today. Now that is all to be diminished. More jobs will be lost than gained by trade protectionism. Ain't we got (not) fun?

We sold out our jobs to have "better crappy goods" is the worse thing we have been lead into..

 

[Dewey]

Another forum thread earlier this year looked at domestic ebike manufacturing. TLDR if you were really determined you could DIY assemble a somewhat made in North America ebike with lots of imported components. Among pre-built ebikes there are several companies doing design work here and a smaller number with assembly lines Stateside using imported components like Prodecotech in FL, GenZe in MI, Day 6 in IA, BM Ebikes in CA, Worksman in NY manufacture the steel frames then send them to Electric Bike Technologies in PA who add the motor. From recent statements companies like Pedego and Raleigh Electric who do some design work here would transfer assembly outside China but continue to use their supply chain.

 

[Reid]

We sold out our jobs to have "better crappy goods" is the worse thing we have been lead into..

We cannot bring back what was deliberately taken apart by the leading capitalists of our society. We cannot in a free market economy preserve by good unions or trade protectionism the basic fact that the dollar decides our selfish futures.

I do not mourn lousy two hundred dollar RCA USA-made color TV portables of the 1970s. I don't miss USA cars that were deliberately made to rust out in a few years or the fiberglas deck 1964 push mower that maimed me with flying rocks until the day when vibration induced fatigue shattered the polyester resin glass fiber lightweight shell of a deck, all of a sudden and in a heap. The shin killer ground to a stop and was powerless to do any more harm ever again.

Yet, there were so many well made USA products besides the bunch of crap foisted on us year after year with little innovation other than restyling, because there was in general in those recent olden days of bad, little technical innovation demanded by a public that didn't know to demand any better of many mundane product areas.

That products can be made well and more cheaply by poorer people who need the work more than you and I do, is the cornerstay of prosperity for all of us.

And ALL of us on this earth are in the game together. Free market reality properly allowed (not with government subsidy) is the only long term correct course. It works in nature. If we are not of nature, even as intellectualized as we are, what are we, and how can we sustain a fiction indefinitely?

How can we sustain a fiction? Only by lying, only to please ourselves in our always selfishly constructed fictions.

 

[Reid]

Not for me. I’m a big fan of modern dentistry, the end of small pox, and potable water. You can keep nature. Visit England if you want to see natural dentistry.

Counterpoint.

English teeth today have been stained and rotted by centuries swilling tea with sugar formerly refined from beets and modern dentistry in the USA is an unaffordable necessity driving thousands to Mexico and Thailand where they do not die because smallpox vaccine was reinvented by an Englishman Jenner with presumably bad teeth, who, like yourself was certainly not against potable water, per se, but was for tea because boiling water then made water potable.

 

[Alex M]

They created an economy dependent on China industry and then drop a tariff?...

Er... minor correction: "They" created an economy dependent on China. "He" drops a tariff ...

China have already flanked the US (and Western Europe as well), steadily acquiring steel and aluminum factories in Africa, Latin America and East Europe for the past 20-30 years, and reducing the export from China-based factories. Also, farmlands. US import tariffs on products from those countries do exist, but not as high as on products coming from China. Make no mistake, those are not some random private entities. Mostly government-owned companies.

Yes, people at the bottom will have to pay the bill, as usual.