Undertaking legal actions against Watt Wagons
- Thread starter onlineaddy
- Start date
loamoaf
Active Member
- Region
- USA
This is what it boils down to. The semi-frequent email updates about order statuses and shipment expectations was a nice example of proactive measures to be transparent with customers, but it didn't last. Creating threads on EBR to address situations was also a good attempt but can quickly go off the rails with a lot of noise for the signal to fight through, as we've seen. Sometimes that can seem like a thankless effort but people with outstanding orders knowing the situation and having some information to set their expectations off of is much less likely to lead to cancelled orders and refund requests and negative reviews than leaving people in the dark.
WaxedWookie
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
Oh hey, that's me! Is there anything I've said you think is unfair inaccurate dishonest or a surprise to you, or are you just upset that we're sharing the experiences you've created and seeking updates publicly because you all but refuse to acknowledge we exist through the non-public channels you've provided?
@pushkar, pull your head in. This is out of control because of your complete failure to communicate with your customers as you continue to make commitment after commitment that you can't/won't deliver on - from refunds to timelines to parts to entire bikes while you stand by your decision to keep them in the dark. Don't push responsibility for the way you've managed your business through a period of logistical challenges on to us.
You've now made it clear that you're trading while insolvent, making commitments you know you can't meet on new orders to fund any movement on existing orders. Are you catching up, or just continuing to dig a deeper hole for yourself? Do you think threatening to fold the business if asked to pay what you owe in a timely manner is de-escalating the situation?
You refuse to give timely or anything resembling an explanation on where the refunds/bikes/parts are that you owe people - including me, who is still waiting on parts for my bike a year after my order (last update on that was 6 weeks ago after I chased it - but I'll be surprised if I ever hear an update or see what I paid for). I and others like me brought our concerns to this public forum because of your lack of response to emails, support tickets and live chats. If you'd been vaguely responsive via the channels you advertise, or taken simple steps like updating the delays thread as promised, there wouldn't be a need to bring things here for attention - nor would people be as angry and inclined to share their terrible experiences. It's not as though I've consistently called out the lack of communication as my primary issue - how were you to know this would go bad? We only told you time and again. Instead, with this lack of communication, you make insincere claims like...
while you decided to stop providing updates to people you owed thousands of dollars worth of bikes (as though running from those you owe will fix a damn thing) because
When you decide not to even bother with updates (while bizarrely still claiming you've been trying to provide transparency), and are seemingly oblivious to the issues that's creating (while blaming forum users instead), it calls into question your claims like...
Rather than owning your failures and addressing your mistakes - even when they're pointed out, you blame forum users for your failures, and seem to be trying to use your leverage over those you owe bikes refunds and parts to to silence us so that you can find the next round of schmucks so that you can cover your debts to the last round of schmucks (like me).
You're not asking us to stop - you're just calling people out by name and blaming us for the fact that you can't issue refunds, explicitly stating that if your business fails, it'll be our fault.
Aside from the above, got a history of dishonest behaviour from fake google reviews, knowingly downgrading bikes without comment, explanation, or refund, and making commitments you clearly have no ability and/or will to fulfil - How's the X-tour going? Is it fair to assume the May 1st shipping date still advertised on the product page didn't happen? How were you to know that you'd face issues delivering a product based on renders? It's not like you have a history of failing to deliver "production" bikes like my Hydra in a timely manner - let alone renders like the Helios. Selling vapourware on a fixed timeline given your track record and financial situation seems like a questionable decision - particularly when you're "laser focussed on returning the money". Given all this, do you think you're owed any charitability at this point?
If you don't want people complaining about their experiences with your business, warning others against making the same mistake, maybe don't actively make uncontrollable logistics issues worse with your poor choices. The primary issue here isn't the supply chain - it's your lack of communication. My unsolicited advice is to stop treating people like the victims of a ponzi scheme, surfacing only to make commitments that won't be met and handwavy explanations - treat people like investors (this is how you sold to the Helios founders, after all), continuing to provide regular updates including explanations of delays, aiming to under-promise and over-deliver. You're bound to get some people expressing their frustration, but people won't be left to speculate whether they've been scammed while creating a lot of understanding/forgiveness about the delays.
You know better than anyone that you're at a make or break moment here - stop doubling down on the choices that led you this point, and maybe learn from some of the feedback we're giving you about what would fix this rather than blaming your customers for the state of your business. If you can't manage this, folding if probably the responsible decision - this is clearly a drain on the mental health, wallet and time of you, your team and your customers - I think everyone involved is miserable at this point, and if you can't manage that much, it's unlikely you're cut out for this. In spite of appearances, I want your business to succeed - though I want people to get what they're owed, and for people not to unwittingly sign up for the experience I've had more.
...but hey - what do I know? I've only worked at the global leaders in both financial services and experience management, helping them both build new business units - never started my own business... at this scale at least.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
Thanks, @WaxedWookie, for taking the time to share your experience and assessment of WW and Pushkar’s business practices and handling of another of his customers. I’m sorry to hear (but not surprised) that the mistreatments extend beyond the founders.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
Ahh, my old friend Tom D. I see your still riding the Watt Wagon wave but sadly, it appears there may be rocks (really big ones
) ahead.In any case, that as you say "POS I bought from China" is very similar (component wise) to those wagons full of watts you prefer. Of course I only had to pay 50% of what you paid for the ownership privilege. And yes, the SA 5 spd IGH did eventually have problems with that big powerful Bafang mid-drive despite the written assurances given to me by Sturmey Archer the 5 speed IGH would be fine. If only I had listened to you and Pushcart. That said, I know you'll be happy to hear that the manufacturer of the "POS" shipped me a new rear wheel with a nice 9 speed a SRAM gearset, chain and front sprocket which made that "POS" a very nice reliable, comfy and fast ride. Of course, you're used to a much higher level of customer service and problem resolution from your friends at WW. Too bad they can't keep ALL their customers as happy as you are Tommy Boy.
Back to your question about the "POS" I'm sorry to say that I lack your obsessive brand loyalty and so I moved on from that bike. Turns out I prefer pedelec mode mid-drives and so have a couple of those to ride. Thanks again for all your research and the trip down memory lane. I miss that big ol fat tire, Bafang noisy, fast riding POS. You have a good life Tom D and let's be sure to talk again sometime ... but not soon. OK?
WaxedWookie
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
This is absolute word salad... are you asking me what happened?
I ordered a bike that was advertised as shipping in 60 days (For evidence of Pushkar's nonsense shipping commitments, go check out the X-tour - still advertised as shipping a month ago, but seemingly hasn't progressed past renders. Knowingly taking peoples' money based on these demonstrably false claims is flirting with fraud). Aside from the lengths I've had to go to for the barest of updates months after the bike was supposed to ship and each successive commitment was missed (mostly without explanation), not to mention Amit's outright admission they knowingly downgraded parts without so much as refunding the difference, only for them to decide what fair compensation would be for parts I don't want, it's a year since my order, and I'm still waiting for parts.
Are you suggesting that I spent thousands of dollars and went through a year of hassle and stress about being ripped off for the sake of a story to strangers online? What could possibly led you to that conclusion, and what precisely is hard to believe? The comms that multiple others are complaining about? The delays that others have talked about, and that caused Pushkar to create a thread to update on? I've invited Pushkar to highlight any lies I've told a number of times - including in my last post, and he hasn't yet - if he's unwilling to speak for himself, by all means, feel free to jump in and disprove anything I've said.
I don't want others making the same mistakes as me - my preferred solution is for Pushkar to start making things right - starting with better communication rather than desperately trying to pretend issues don't exist and blaming customers that mention them. The alternative is stopping people from unwittingly giving money to a business that the founder is threatening to close without refunding people whose money he's taken under false pretences (see things like the currently advertised shipping commitment for the X-Tour).
Finally, did you choose to call me "WWokely" because of some reflexive habit to discredit me as being "woke" (as though that has relevance or meaning) in the absence of anything substantive to say, or is this just in-line with the broader level of literacy you've displayed? As others have said, your bumbling attempts to defend Wattwagons are only making them look worse when they have people like you in their corner.
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Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
You're wasting your time and energy trying to reason with Mike_V.
He's a troll and gets his jollies out of criticizing and ridiculing others. Reason and logic play no part in his irrational posts.
WaxedWookie
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
Cheers - that much is clear. I'm happy to draw out the full extent of their lunacy for all to see before blocking them though.
WaxedWookie
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
Word salad, fAkE oRdErS - Everyone with issues - especially Pushkar is a crisis actor.
You're not coherent enough for your nonsense to be entertaining - I'm working way too hard not to dip into ableism here.
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
He's on my 'ignore' list too.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
Confirmed remaining refund amount posted to my account yesterday (7 June). I will update my situation with my Consumer Action Center advocate today.
I recommend all WW customers do everything you can to protect yourselves. Do not leave anything to Pushkar's whims.
I am glad to be done with my most horrific consumer experience. Good luck to all still involved.
I recommend all WW customers do everything you can to protect yourselves. Do not leave anything to Pushkar's whims.
I am glad to be done with my most horrific consumer experience. Good luck to all still involved.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
Well it's good to know that sometimes, the squeaky wheel does get the oil ...
TomD
Well-Known Member
Short story is the long delayed refund check from Gates finally arrived but was less than the amount needed to pay off all founders requesting refunds. The select few founders threatening legal action were paid off sooner at the expense of other founders who were told they will receive less (I'm not sure that is appropriate from a legal standpoint) edit: it sounds like they haven't been paid yet either. Transparency is still a significant issue as WW has intimated there are additional vendor refunds to pay off remaining founders but has provided no details despite requests to provide specifics.
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Communication needs to be better, that much I will agree on.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
Thats a real beauty. 50lbs?
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
I just read this and that's exactly what I thought, but had no proof of.
Thank you for saying it
