Turbo Vado 2 4.0 or 5.0 or 6.0?

[mcdenny]

I've been riding a Turbo Como 3.0 for 4 years (~2,000 miles) and enjoy it a lot. In the beginning it was a way to get strong enough (78 y/o, decent shape) to ride a regular acoustic bike. I got a Trek FX3 hybrid (not electric) a couple of years ago and like riding that more. I like the nimbleness and ease its light weight provides but can't keep up speed or distance-wise with friends on drop bar road bikes who have been riding for a long time. Also can't manage the longer steeper hills on some of the greenways around here (Nashville).

I've had my eye on the Turbo Vado SL since I got the itch for a "sportier" bike. I test rode a gen 1 SL 4.0 a couple of years ago and remember thinking it was really harsh and I wasn't comfortable with the leaned forward riding posture. That's when I got the Trek. It was even lighter and a lot cheaper. A 2" stem riser solved the comfort issue.

I should add the Como is the super low step and the Trek is the stagger frame, like the SL step thru bikes. I don't have the hip flexibility to swing my leg easily over the seat. I've experimented with alternative mounting techniques but none make me feel confident.

I just came back from riding 170 miles over 5 days on rail trails in Florida. I loved it and that convinced me I want to upgrade my E Bike.

So, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on a new gen 2 SL. I think it will give me a lot of the feel of my Trek hybrid bike but actually has just as much power and battery storage as my Como so no problem riding 18 mph or going up long hills. Like everyone else I'm disappointed at the weight gain gen 1 to gen 2 but can't say I'll mind having the 50 NM motor. Anyway gen 2 its going to be.

I'm asking for advice on choosing 4.0, 5.0 or 6.0. My use case is 10 -30 mile rides on paved bike trails, mostly flat or rolling but some hills I often see acoustic. bike riders walking up. I would like to branch out into riding forest service roads or rural gravel roads. I also use my bike for shopping and have a custom wooden version of a milk crate on the Como rack. When I go on a longer ride I like having that box to carry my lunch, a jacket, etc.

My LBS has a 4.0 step-thru and a 6.0 non-EQ in my size. I tried them both Saturday, about 10 minutes each riding in a bumpy parking lot. Other than mounting the 6.0 I really couldn't tell much difference between them. I was a little uncomfortably leaned forward on both. The LBS owner will fit a 2" higher handlebar on any bike and a dropper seat post if i get the 6.0 (no step-thru option on the carbon frame). 4.0 is $4,600, 5.0 is $5,100, 6.0 is $6,400 or 6,900 for EQ. I can afford any of them but obviously cheaper is better.

From what I can tell the main difference between the three levels are drive train and obviously the 6.0 carbon frame. Lifting the 35# carbon 6.0 bike compared to the 44# alloy bike didn't seem that different. (I can easily load my 62# Como on my hitch rack.)

Do you think the weight difference would make very much difference riding? Do you think the Shimano CUES 6000 vs 8000 vs Deore XT would feel any different? Other differences I haven't thought about?

Thanks. I visit here often. I don't post much but enjoy the wisdom of many of you regulars.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The 5.0 is a good balance.

 

[mcdenny]

The 5.0 is a good balance.

It is the middle child price wise. Do you think riding the CUES 6000 would feel any different from the 8000?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I apologise for my curt answer. Now, here's what I think.

If I wanted a noticeably more lightweight e-bike, that would be the 6.0 non-EQ. However, it is a High-Step frame. Also, I'm sure you would appreciate having the rear rack. I'm not a fan of carbon fibre frames. Eventually, the price is high. Which leaves the 5.0 or 4.0 EQ Step-Through.

The only differences between the two models are:

• 11-speed drivetrain (5.0) vs. 10-speed (4.0)
• Gorgeous Satin Deep Lake Metallic paint on one version of the 5.0.

Now, it all depends on what type of a cyclist you are. My favourite distance is 50 miles but I do not avoid a way longer distances (using Range Extenders). I very often ride gravel and forest paths. For me, pedalling efficiency is the king, and Cadence is the queen One of the features of Vado SL 4.0 Gen 1 I hated was the 10-speed drivetrain. Fancy you are riding at a good steady speed. The gaps in the 10-speed gearing make you either spin in one gear or mash the cranks in the next one. While I need a gear in which I can pedal at the optimum cadence! The 11-speed drivetrain has the gearing much better spaced, and that's very important to me. (I had to replace the drivetrain in my Vado SL to achieve my goal). Also, if I were in your position, I would swallow the higher price of the 5.0 just to get the Satin Deep Lake Metallic You ride the e-bike and you can see it all the time. A nice colour would give me additional comfort.

If the price really matters, go for the 4.0. I can see a greatly discounted one in my neck of woods but that's because the Gloss Oasis frame colour is not what many of us would love.

I'm sure you are aware there are two different pools of Specialized e-bikes? One pool is for your local dealer. Ordering online (another pool) with the delivery to your LBS gives the dealer some earning. If the delivery to your home by the dealer is available (from the online pool), the dealer would earn even more. The availability of Specialized e-bikes for dealers and online means different choices and sometimes also some extra discount.

You complained about the too forward riding position. That's a tough subject. The riding position for ane-bike such as a Vado SL 2 is greatly optimised. If you could raise the handlebars then your body weight would shift onto the saddle meaning inevitable butt pain on any longer ride, which could not be compensated by any "comfortable" saddle. With the original design, your body weight is equally spread between your arms, butt, and legs. I was a "stem riser" guy in the beginning. It took me long 3 years to understand how wrong I was! It would be good if you could get used to the slightly more forward riding position

Additionally, the design of the Future Shock suspension system will probably make installation of the stem rises infeasible.

Thank you for your patience!

 

[mcdenny]

Stefan, thank you for your detailed answer.

I like the matte blue color on the 5.0 too but the matte grey on the 4.0 is also good looking. My LBS has the mint green gloss in stock. I’m not a fan.

I’ll have to look at the gear ratios of 4.0 vs 5.0. I also like to keep my cadence in the low 70s so more gears are better.

You are right, a stem riser won’t work with the future shock. The LBS is offering to fit aftermarket handle bars with 2” more rise than the standard bars. I think, based on your comment, I will take the stem riser off my Trek and take it for a longish ride. My Trek’s reach and stack dimensions are almost identical to the SL 2. I have to say 3 hours on my Como (very upright posture, cushy seat) doesn’t bother my butt too much.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Fortunately enough, you are not getting a smaller battery or a weaker motor on the 4.0. It might be right for you!
P.S. The brakes are not the same but based on my experience with the Vado SL 4.0 Gen 1, the lower spec Tektro brakes are adequate.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Welcome aboard! From your mindful past approach to cadence and gearing, guessing you'd enjoy a built-in rider power meter as much as I enjoy the one on my Vado SL 1 5.0.

Obviously not the most important factor in your decision. But which of the SL 2s offer a real-time rider power display — either on the bike itself or via a connected bike computer?

Never had a power meter before the SL. Won't be without one again. This is the TCU page I ride with most of the time. The 50/50 is the assist mode.

Not for any formal training, mind you — though it does help me keep up rider power on fitness rides. Mainly just adds an entertaining new window onto the whole riding experience — especially if you like a little STEM with your cycling.

 

[mcdenny]

All the SL 2s have the full function mastermind display mounted in the center of the bars. My old Como had it too.

i too like to look at rider power vs motor power

 

[mcdenny]

Ordered the 5.0 today. Honestly the matte blue offered on the 5.0 swayed me the most. LBS said my new bike should be here within a week. With the freezing weather forecasted for the next week or even longer I'm in no hurry.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Ordered the 5.0 today. Honestly the matte blue offered on the 5.0 swayed me the most. LBS said my new bike should be here within a week. With the freezing weather forecasted for the next week or even longer I'm in no hurry.

View attachment 204995

Congrats! Eager to hear your first impressions.

That IS a very nice blue. Sounds like we're both pretty color-motivated. Not sure what you had to give up to get that color, but I tend to give color more weight than it's logically due. And I'm usually pretty happy with the result.

 

[mcdenny]

Congrats! Eager to hear your first impressions.

That IS a very nice blue. Sounds like we're both pretty color-motivated. Not sure what you had to give up to get that color, but I tend to give color more weight than it's logically due. And I'm usually pretty happy with the result.

I had to give up $500 to get that color. I probably couldn't tell the difference between 4.0 and 5.0. The 4.0. came in gloss green and matte grey. 5.0 in gloss light grey and the blue matte. The matte silver was good looking but my car and other bike are dark grey so I wanted something a little different.

 

[Allan47.7339]

All the SL 2s have the full function mastermind display mounted in the center of the bars. My old Como had it too.

i too like to look at rider power vs motor power

The Vado SL 2 has a Mastermind H3 which is their latest version with new features. Not only do you have micro tune, you now get dynamic micro tune.

https://support.specialized.com/kb/sp_en-us/content/ECV3-6142/03-Turbo-Vado-SL-2-Turbo-SL-System

 

[BlackHand]

That's a nice looking ride!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm so glad @mcdenny you made the choice I would probably do myself (including the colour!) What is the frame size?
I once had a demo ride on a 6.0 High-Step EQ. The only thing I didn't like was just the high top tube. As a heavy (and careless) person, I wouldn't rather buy the CF e-bike. What I liked, however, was how the e-bike fit my body right from the beginning. I could just mount that e-bike and ride for a long trip! The VSL 2 felt so good! Again, SL 2 is heavier than SL 1 but indeed the motor is stronger and the battery is bigger. An SL 2 could be a sweet spot between the heavy and lightweight Vados I own. Congratulations!

The Vado SL 2 has a Mastermind H3 which is their latest version with new features. Not only do you have micro tune, you now get dynamic micro tune.

https://support.specialized.com/kb/sp_en-us/content/ECV3-6142/03-Turbo-Vado-SL-2-Turbo-SL-System

I completely forgot about the H3 display/remote. The Dynamic Micro Tune is an excellent feature! Similarly to M. Jourdain of "The Bourgeois Gentleman" who hadn't known he spoke in prose I hadn't been aware I was riding a Dynamic mode myself That is, my ECO is x/100% but SPORT is the Static x/x%. Thank you Allan for the good information!

 

[mcdenny]

I'm so glad @mcdenny you made the choice I would probably do myself (including the colour!) What is the frame size?
I once had a demo ride on a 6.0 High-Step EQ. The only thing I didn't like was just the high top tube. As a heavy (and careless) person, I wouldn't rather buy the CF e-bike. What I liked, however, was how the e-bike fit my body right from the beginning. I could just mount that e-bike and ride for a long trip! The VSL 2 felt so good! Again, SL 2 is heavier than SL 1 but indeed the motor is stronger and the battery is bigger. An SL 2 could be a sweet spot between the heavy and lightweight Vados I own. Congratulations!


I completely forgot about the H3 display/remote. The Dynamic Micro Tune is an excellent feature! Similarly to M. Jourdain of "The Bourgeois Gentleman" who hadn't known he spoke in prose I hadn't been aware I was riding a Dynamic mode myself That is, my ECO is x/100% but SPORT is the Static x/x%. Thank you Allan for the good information!

Stefan, I got the medium frame. My height (5'10" but shrinking) and shin length in the Specialized size calculator says I'm right on the boundary between medium and large. I would have chosen the Large to get the higher stack but the LBS owner thought the increased reach would somewhat offset the more comfortable stack height. They are putting on aftermarket handlebars with 60 mm rise instead of 15 mm. Sweepback angle the same. This should give me the same riding posture as my Trek analog bike with the 2" stem riser.

 

[mcdenny]

The Vado SL 2 has a Mastermind H3 which is their latest version with new features. Not only do you have micro tune, you now get dynamic micro tune.

https://support.specialized.com/kb/sp_en-us/content/ECV3-6142/03-Turbo-Vado-SL-2-Turbo-SL-System

Allan, thanks for the deep dive into how Mastermind H3 works. I've been riding my Como with 15/20, 50,50 and 100,100 settings. It never occurred to me to set the max motor power to 100% for all settings, just varying the torque multiplier. Definitely going to try that when I get the bike and the weather warms up. Its supposed to be like 20 degrees below normal for the two weeks.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, I got the medium frame. My height (5'10" but shrinking) and shin length in the Specialized size calculator says I'm right on the boundary between medium and large. I would have chosen the Large to get the higher stack but the LBS owner thought the increased reach would somewhat offset the more comfortable stack height. They are putting on aftermarket handlebars with 60 mm rise instead of 15 mm. Sweepback angle the same. This should give me the same riding posture as my Trek analog bike with the 2" stem riser.

If you chose Large, you would achieve what I would need, that is a sporty riding position. You might feel cramped in the M cockpit (just "might"). I feel I cannot convince you a raised handlebar is an evil
Many happy rides!

Allan, thanks for the deep dive into how Mastermind H3 works. I've been riding my Como with 15/20, 50,50 and 100,100 settings. It never occurred to me to set the max motor power to 100% for all settings, just varying the torque multiplier. Definitely going to try that when I get the bike and the weather warms up. Its supposed to be like 20 degrees below normal for the two weeks.

You certainly understand the x/100% is not increasing the assistance but rather removing the upper limit of the assistance. For instance, you could approach a mild hill. Instead of increasing the assistance, you could just downshift and pedal faster, which usually means an increase in the pedalling power. "Dynamic" is a very rewarding mode for fitness. However, it often requires a strong rider to decrease the "x" or "Ease" to maintain the same battery consumption as in the "Static" modes.

When I set off for one of "ice cream rides" with friends in a mildly undulated area, I usually ride in a "Dynamic" mode with rather low Assist/Ease.

(One of my SL 1 rides of that nature was just 35/100%, which was very low as for my riding capabilities). It was a 120 km ride with 400 m elevation gain.

 

[mcdenny]

If you chose Large, you would achieve what I would need, that is a sporty riding position. You might feel cramped in the M cockpit (just "might"). I feel I cannot convince you a raised handlebar is an evil
Many happy rides!


You certainly understand the x/100% is not increasing the assistance but rather removing the upper limit of the assistance. For instance, you could approach a mild hill. Instead of increasing the assistance, you could just downshift and pedal faster, which usually means an increase in the pedalling power. "Dynamic" is a very rewarding mode for fitness. However, it often requires a strong rider to decrease the "x" or "Ease" to maintain the same battery consumption as in the "Static" modes.

When I set off for one of "ice cream rides" with friends in a mildly undulated area, I usually ride in a "Dynamic" mode with rather low Assist/Ease.

View attachment 205025
(One of my SL 1 rides of that nature was just 35/100%, which was very low as for my riding capabilities). It was a 120 km ride with 400 m elevation gain.

I've been riding my Trek analog bike with 2" stem extender for a couple of years and find it comfortable. The SL2 medium with 60 mm rise bars will have almost exactly the same reach, stack and handle grip height above ground as my large size Trek FX-3.

Fingers crossed it's just as comfortable. I'll have the OEM bars to go back to if necessary.

I took the stem extender off the Trek last week and rode it for 40 minutes. Seemed not-too-bad but I had a bit of a stiff neck afterward. My concern with the E bike is that I can ride it for much longer than my analog bike. On the Como, handle grips 2" higher than the Trek with stem extender, I've had a couple of 4 hour rides with no (well not too much) discomfort.

On the subject of assist modes, I'm looking forward to an experiment setting ECO at 20/20 and SPORT at 20/100 and toggling back and forth to see how different they feel. For reference I ride my Como at 15/20 when I'm cruising along 9-11mph and 50/50 when going 14-16 mph keeping up with my fit friends,

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

On the subject of assist modes, I'm looking forward to an experiment setting ECO at 20/20 and SPORT at 20/100 and toggling back and forth to see how different they feel. For reference I ride my Como at 15/20 when I'm cruising along 9-11mph and 50/50 when going 14-16 mph keeping up with my fit friends,

I have a number to help you know when your SL 2 saturates — i e., reaches the motor power cap in a given assist mode:

P1 = 139W

This might come in handy during your experiments, cuz once the motor's capped, you've entered a new riding regime where:
1. Battery consumption rate is also capped.
2. Any additional watts needed at the rear wheel can only come from you.
3. The only way to get more help will be to bump to a higher cap.

Writing a Specialized mid-drive assist mode as E/M, P1 is the saturation rider power Prs in the very common special case when E = M. This case includes all factory default modes (35/35, 60/60, and 100/100 on my SL 1) and all non-dynamic MicroTune modes.

Prs is the rider power Pr at which motor power first hits the artificial cap imposed by M. In the general case, when E ≠ M,

Prs = P1 (M / E),

so doubling M / E doubles Prs. Hence, going from 50/50 to 50/100 doubles Prs from 139W to 278W. Problem is, if you can't hold 278W for the time required, you're leaving motor power on the table.

This value P1 = 139W is a property of your SL 2's Mahle 1.2 SL motor and therefore also applies to the Creo 2. For my SL 1 with the 1.1 SL motor, P1 = 133W.

 

[mcdenny]

I have a number to help you know when your SL 2 saturates — i e., reaches the motor power cap in a given assist mode:

P1 = 139W

This might come in handy during your experiments, cuz once the motor's capped, you've entered a new riding regime where:
1. Battery consumption rate is also capped.
2. Any additional watts needed at the rear wheel can only come from you.
3. The only way to get more help will be to bump to a higher cap.

Writing a Specialized mid-drive assist mode as E/M, P1 is the saturation rider power Prs in the very common special case when E = M. This case includes all factory default modes (35/35, 60/60, and 100/100 on my SL 1) and all non-dynamic MicroTune modes.

Prs is the rider power Pr at which motor power first hits the artificial cap imposed by M. In the general case, when E ≠ M,

Prs = P1 (M / E),

so doubling M / E doubles Prs. Hence, going from 50/50 to 50/100 doubles Prs from 139W to 278W. Problem is, if you can't hold 278W for the time required, you're leaving motor power on the table.

This value P1 = 139W is a property of your SL 2's Mahle 1.2 SL motor and therefore also applies to the Creo 2. For my SL 1 with the 1.1 SL motor, P1 = 133W.

Thanks Jeremy. I'm an engineer too and appreciate your very detailed posts on how the specialized motor controller works.

My curiosity has to do with this: Lets say I'm riding in ECO (20/20) at maybe 12 mph at saturation. If I want to go faster it's all me. But if ECO is 20/100 all else being equal, if I want to go faster the motor will still be helping me (You, only faster, right). Is my understanding correct?