Turbo Creo 2 Comp E5 (aluminum) is out, is a Vado SL 2 next?

Well but that doesn't explain the relative difference between the two.

Maybe the real question is, why is the Creo 2 Comp (carbon) in Europe 'cheap' at 6,000 EUR (incl. VAT) compared to 6,500 USD (excl. sales tax)?

Edit: Across the board the price in $ is higher than in EUR. 9k vs 8.5 for the Expert; 14k vs 13 for the S-Works. But then for the E5 the roles are reversed... So seems like bad value for us Europoors. I find it interesting.
Although we do not know what's happening behind the scenes in the corporation, I can only guess road and gravel e-bikes are not really popular in Europe because of the speed restriction of 25 km/h.
 
On the Turbo Creo 2 Comp E5, I see that the shifters (and brakes) are SRAM Apex mechanical. I have never used any SRAM shifters. One of my cycling buddies says that the Apex are the lowest-end shifters SRAM makes, are mushy, troublesome, and non-intuitive to use (the double tap). Has anyone used these, and do you agree? I was pretty bummed to hear this...I am spoiled having Ultegra on my current (non-e) road bike, but I'm really only riding that on the smart trainer these days; on the road I'm riding my Kona Dew-e DL. I'm not super picky about things like this normally, but if I do decide to pursue this bike, I would hate to end up with unusable shifters.

I don't have direct experience with Apex but its well regarded. I ran first gen Sram Red on my road bike for many years and did like it a lot. Note that Srams lowest end is much more mid-range than Shimanos low end (I've seen Apex compared roughly to 105 in quality).

The doubletap is different than Shimano. You have one lever that does everything, a light tap shifts one way and a longer push shifts the other. When I built my road bike, my previous bikes had run Shimano and I got used to it very quickly. My current gravel bikes (electric and non) run Shimano and when I ride the road bike on the trainer I adjust back to the Sram doubletap pretty fast.

The main thing I liked about my Sram was the brake lever is much more solid feeling (since it isn't doubling as a shift lever, it only moves forward and back) and the sram hoods were more narrow and comfy for me (I have small hands and have always found shimano hoods to be a bit bulky). Your mileage may vary. I'd try and test ride a bike with it if you can.
 
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Thanks @jabberwocky, that is really good intel. I didn't know the first thing about Apex or anything SRAM-related, so what my friend told me was the first and only thing I'd heard about it. She is very bike-knowledgeable, so I respect her opinion, but I do know that everyone is different. I like hearing about the SRAM brake lever and the hoods, as I also have smaller hands and also find Shimano hoods bulky.

I definitely want to find a bike to test ride with Apex if at all possible; I'm sure it won't be "e", but that's fine for a test ride. I ride the smallest size of any bike model, so that always makes finding anything to test ride more of a challenge. If and when I decide to take the plunge, I may have to call around to different dealers to see if I can find anything with Apex to ride. It will most likely be a gravel bike, I assume?
 
Thanks @jabberwocky, that is really good intel. I didn't know the first thing about Apex or anything SRAM-related, so what my friend told me was the first and only thing I'd heard about it. She is very bike-knowledgeable, so I respect her opinion, but I do know that everyone is different. I like hearing about the SRAM brake lever and the hoods, as I also have smaller hands and also find Shimano hoods bulky.

I definitely want to find a bike to test ride with Apex if at all possible; I'm sure it won't be "e", but that's fine for a test ride. I ride the smallest size of any bike model, so that always makes finding anything to test ride more of a challenge. If and when I decide to take the plunge, I may have to call around to different dealers to see if I can find anything with Apex to ride. It will most likely be a gravel bike, I assume?
I forgot to mention one thing about SRAM -- their hydraulic road/gravel brakes are pretty bad. I think this opinion is fairly widely shared. Their MTB brakes are probably better. It's fine for most situations, but it's terrible for serious hills. I gravel bike in the mountains, and I eventually replaced the calipers with a Hope 4-piston setup because I was losing so much braking power on the descents. They also use DOT hydraulic fluid (which is pretty noxious) instead of mineral oil, like Shimano and Campag. If you're biking on mostly flat terrain, the SRAM is fine.
 
Thanks @jabberwocky, that is really good intel. I didn't know the first thing about Apex or anything SRAM-related, so what my friend told me was the first and only thing I'd heard about it. She is very bike-knowledgeable, so I respect her opinion, but I do know that everyone is different. I like hearing about the SRAM brake lever and the hoods, as I also have smaller hands and also find Shimano hoods bulky.

I definitely want to find a bike to test ride with Apex if at all possible; I'm sure it won't be "e", but that's fine for a test ride. I ride the smallest size of any bike model, so that always makes finding anything to test ride more of a challenge. If and when I decide to take the plunge, I may have to call around to different dealers to see if I can find anything with Apex to ride. It will most likely be a gravel bike, I assume?

I do think there is some debate in the roadie world about where the various equivalences are between Sram and Shimano groups. Sram has 4 road groups, so people kinda assume they are equivalent to the top 4 groups of Shimano, but IMO Apex is about 105 level, Red is about Dura-ace level and Rival/Force occupy the middle ground where Ultegra is. Knowing people who have had Apex and Rival they seem very solid and I've heard no complaints. Honestly 105 is really good these days too. The days where anything not Ultegra was kind of a mushy mess are long gone, both companies have let the features and quality of the higher end groups trickle down over the years.

I forgot to mention one thing about SRAM -- their hydraulic road/gravel brakes are pretty bad. I think this opinion is fairly widely shared. Their MTB brakes are probably better. It's fine for most situations, but it's terrible for serious hills. I gravel bike in the mountains, and I eventually replaced the calipers with a Hope 4-piston setup because I was losing so much braking power on the descents. They also use DOT hydraulic fluid (which is pretty noxious) instead of mineral oil, like Shimano and Campag. If you're biking on mostly flat terrain, the SRAM is fine.

Good to know, I have zero experience with their disc groups (though I've run sram MTB brakes on many mountain bikes). Honestly I'm not that impressed with the Ultegra discs on my non-electric gravel bike or the GRX brakes on my e-gravel either. They are fine. They aren't great. I've considered the Hopes a few times. I did upgrade the e-gravel bike to 180mm rotors (which was a pain in the ass with flat mount calipers) and it helped a lot.
 
santa cruz seems to be going against the conventional wisdom here - the flat bar and drop bar skitch have the same frame. same geometry. they do skew the height recommendations a bit, since the hoods on the drop bar bikes are so much further forward than the grips on the flat bar bike :

View attachment 174269

this is probably extra important because the reach on these bikes seems VERY LONG. at 6’2, they recommend the XL for me, with 435 mm reach. my creo was 391, my aethos 402, my addict 384. 435 is nuts.

as far as i know, most other bikes which offer both bars have slightly different frames, like the diverge. maybe because the reach is so long, it works OK with the less extended flat bars, and they just side down for drop bar riders. that’s what the chart implies.
I’m 6’1” and the large flat bar Skitch was a big bike. Reach was too long for me.
 
It’s weird because reach is my only issue. I guess I have slightly short arms for my height (wingspan is about 2” less than height).

My 56 diverge feels a little small, aside for the reach. I even shortened the stem to 80 cm from 90, and had a fit on it for 90 cm. Otherwise I just feel a little cramped, always striking toes on the front wheel.

With the Skitch I would have added a redshift stem but it’s the same length (80cm) as what comes with the size L, so not much opportunity to reduce reach. I have a 90s mtb that actually fits perfectly. Gonna try and find something like that next time around.

Idk!
 
Still thinking on all this... Do you think if I ordered this model that comes stock with SRAM Apex mechanical shifting, they would do an upgrade to electronic shifting before I took delivery? I know it would cost me (no idea how much), but depending on the cost, might be worth it. I just don't know if Specialized does customizations like this or not. Thanks!
 
Still thinking on all this... Do you think if I ordered this model that comes stock with SRAM Apex mechanical shifting, they would do an upgrade to electronic shifting before I took delivery? I know it would cost me (no idea how much), but depending on the cost, might be worth it. I just don't know if Specialized does customizations like this or not. Thanks!

Specialized almost certainly doesn’t, but your local shop should be able to. Will likely be fairly spendy.
 
That's what I was afraid of...thanks.
Talk to your local shop about what you want and see what they can do. If the bike comes with mech sram and you want electronic sram it shouldn’t be a ton of labor since the calipers and hose can be reused and srams electronic is wireless so no running wires through the frame to hook everything up. A good shop will try and help you out. But no getting around the fact that a wireless groupset is prolly gonna start at 1k and rapidly move up.
 
Talk to your local shop about what you want and see what they can do. If the bike comes with mech sram and you want electronic sram it shouldn’t be a ton of labor since the calipers and hose can be reused and srams electronic is wireless so no running wires through the frame to hook everything up. A good shop will try and help you out. But no getting around the fact that a wireless groupset is prolly gonna start at 1k and rapidly move up.
Thanks @jabberwocky. I saw one other bike that is about $800 to upgrade to electronic shifting, so I figured it was about that or more. The reason I ask is because my one friend who has had two bikes with Apex mechanical absolutely hated it, said it was always in the shop being adjusted, brakes were mushy, shifts were inaccurate, etc. She also didn't find the shifting intuitive. It's too bad that on a $4500 bike, Specialized couldn't at least have gone with the next level groupset up. Or offer two models, one with mechanical, one with electronic shifting. Why not the carbon Creo Comp, you're probably asking? It's all about cycling inseam -- there's a standover difference between the two in the smallest size of around an inch. That inch matters when you are a shrimp like me!

So with that in mind, I am now leaning towards splurging on a Lennard Zinn custom road/gravel e-bike, since my measurements make it very difficult to find anything else that will work. My cycling inseam is 28", and most of the drop-bar "road" e-bikes start at 29" even for the "XS" size (yeah, right!) This aluminum Creo would fit me, I'm sure, but because of the shifter issue, I'm not sold. Not to mention the fact that Specialized seems to be having a real problem getting bikes to shops in any kind of timely fashion, especially the smallest size. Zinn builds bikes for petite folks as well as super tall folks, the extremes of the bell curve, as it were, and it may be worth paying double what I'd pay for this Creo to get something that is exactly fitted to me and outfitted as I want. I'm old (63) and really over trying to make something that isn't right work, somehow.
 
Thanks @jabberwocky. I saw one other bike that is about $800 to upgrade to electronic shifting, so I figured it was about that or more. The reason I ask is because my one friend who has had two bikes with Apex mechanical absolutely hated it, said it was always in the shop being adjusted, brakes were mushy, shifts were inaccurate, etc. She also didn't find the shifting intuitive. It's too bad that on a $4500 bike, Specialized couldn't at least have gone with the next level groupset up. Or offer two models, one with mechanical, one with electronic shifting. Why not the carbon Creo Comp, you're probably asking? It's all about cycling inseam -- there's a standover difference between the two in the smallest size of around an inch. That inch matters when you are a shrimp like me!

So with that in mind, I am now leaning towards splurging on a Lennard Zinn custom road/gravel e-bike, since my measurements make it very difficult to find anything else that will work. My cycling inseam is 28", and most of the drop-bar "road" e-bikes start at 29" even for the "XS" size (yeah, right!) This aluminum Creo would fit me, I'm sure, but because of the shifter issue, I'm not sold. Not to mention the fact that Specialized seems to be having a real problem getting bikes to shops in any kind of timely fashion, especially the smallest size. Zinn builds bikes for petite folks as well as super tall folks, the extremes of the bell curve, as it were, and it may be worth paying double what I'd pay for this Creo to get something that is exactly fitted to me and outfitted as I want. I'm old (63) and really over trying to make something that isn't right work, somehow.
For what it's worth, $800 seems over the top for this upgrade. The electronic shifting is great, but you're kinda beholden to a lot of proprietary technologies. My shifter lost battery power during a ride and gave no warning prior. This was 2 weeks after buying the bike. Of course, every bike and battery I bought from Specialized came with almost no charge, but I would have expected some warning via the app, auditory, etc. I kinda wonder if simple is the way to go.

The custom titanium gravel bike sounds intriguing.
 
Thanks @jabberwocky. I saw one other bike that is about $800 to upgrade to electronic shifting, so I figured it was about that or more. The reason I ask is because my one friend who has had two bikes with Apex mechanical absolutely hated it, said it was always in the shop being adjusted, brakes were mushy, shifts were inaccurate, etc. She also didn't find the shifting intuitive. It's too bad that on a $4500 bike, Specialized couldn't at least have gone with the next level groupset up. Or offer two models, one with mechanical, one with electronic shifting.

Interesting about Apex. Theres definitely some personal preference with how the mechanical groupsets work. I'd definitely recommend a test ride on a sram bike to see how you actually like it. Not trying to talk you into it, I've been happy with my 2010-era Sram Red but thats a rim brake bike and obviously ancient by todays standard. My gravel bikes are both Shimano (2017 Ultegra on the non-electric and 2020 GRX on the ebike).

$800 can be reasonable depending on what you're getting.

Why not the carbon Creo Comp, you're probably asking? It's all about cycling inseam -- there's a standover difference between the two in the smallest size of around an inch. That inch matters when you are a shrimp like me!

I would caution against using standover for sizing. Its one of the less useful geometry numbers when it comes to judging fit. I'm short as well (5'-6"); I've never owned a road bike I could comfortably stand over with feet flat on the ground. Just goes with the territory being short. Never had one without toe overlap either.

Reach or effective top tube are the first number I look at when judging fit. Thats the main number that determines how comfortable the bike is while riding it for me. I've had bikes with standover measurements differing by 2" that were comfortable and fit similarly for riding.

Ultimately would be real nice to get a test ride on the bike you want! Specialized has a pretty extensive dealer network, I have to believe someone out there has your bikes/size in stock (or will have one soon). It would be worth a decent drive to actually test ride one.

So with that in mind, I am now leaning towards splurging on a Lennard Zinn custom road/gravel e-bike, since my measurements make it very difficult to find anything else that will work. My cycling inseam is 28", and most of the drop-bar "road" e-bikes start at 29" even for the "XS" size (yeah, right!) This aluminum Creo would fit me, I'm sure, but because of the shifter issue, I'm not sold. Not to mention the fact that Specialized seems to be having a real problem getting bikes to shops in any kind of timely fashion, especially the smallest size. Zinn builds bikes for petite folks as well as super tall folks, the extremes of the bell curve, as it were, and it may be worth paying double what I'd pay for this Creo to get something that is exactly fitted to me and outfitted as I want. I'm old (63) and really over trying to make something that isn't right work, somehow.

If it helps, I would also caution against getting too obsessed with particular components in the stock build of the bike. They aren't anything you're stuck with forever. People upgrade components all the time. You could (assuming you test ride the Creo and like the fit) run the stock Apex groupset for a bit, and if it proves too troublesome or you don't like it, upgrade it to something else later.

I don't know much about Zinn. A custom ti bike using full power Bosch is going to be a very different beast from a Creo. I mean, it sounds cool as s*it and ti is awesome (my non-electric gravel bike is titanium and a love it) so I definitely won't talk you out of that one if you really want to go down that road. :p
 
Why not the carbon Creo Comp, you're probably asking? It's all about cycling inseam -- there's a standover difference between the two in the smallest size of around an inch. That inch matters when you are a shrimp like me!
While it may be hard to find, be sure to test the standover height on the alloy Creo. I wouldn't trust Specialized published specs, esp for an unreleased bike. As an example, the Tero 5.0 lists the same standover height for M and L frames. From test riding both, I know this is not the case.
 
For what it's worth, $800 seems over the top for this upgrade. The electronic shifting is great, but you're kinda beholden to a lot of proprietary technologies. My shifter lost battery power during a ride and gave no warning prior. This was 2 weeks after buying the bike. Of course, every bike and battery I bought from Specialized came with almost no charge, but I would have expected some warning via the app, auditory, etc. I kinda wonder if simple is the way to go.

The custom titanium gravel bike sounds intriguing.
Try shifting with just your little finger(s) for a couple weeks on mechanical shifters and then decide if electronic shifting is worth the upgrade. Your mitts are probably twice the size of hers.
 
Thanks for all the excellent comments, folks! I will take all your points into consideration, definitely. A few replies:
* My husband has electronic shifting on his analog Trek Emonda (Shimano) and loves it. I have arthritis in my thumbs already, and it's likely only a matter of time for my fingers, as both my parents have/had it, grandparents too. So, even though I don't have to have electronic shifting, I do like the idea. I realize it can fail and is more complex, so I would happily go with mechanical if it worked well. I have mechanical on my Kona Dew-e DL (flat bars), but it is a thumb joint workout and is a bit painful at times for me.
* I'm not focusing only on standover, as I know it is only one aspect of frame geometry. The 365 mm reach on the Creos (alloy and carbon) should be fine for me. But I won't buy a bike I can't stand over with at least a little (say 1") clearance, having had a close encounter with a top tube on a sudden stop once on a bike that I didn't have any clearance on. It was very painful and not something I'd ever want to repeat. :eek:
* Finding a Small Creo to test ride may be near impossible. Everything I read and people I know who have one had to order one. They just don't seem to stock them in shops and are always sold out. I am not sure why Specialized doesn't make more of them, as there is obviously a decent-sized (pardon the pun) market out there for them. But I would jump at the chance to do so and will unless I decide I can't wait any longer and order the Zinn!
* Toe overlap I've had before and also had a slow-speed fall from it once. The Zinn eliminates that with the custom geometry and short cranks based on leg length. I won't buy a bike with a super steep seat tube angle and toe overlap either. Yes, I'm getting very picky in my old age, but I've been through it all (fractured pelvis in 2005, fractured jaw in 2017) on a lot of bicycles of all types, and I want to lessen my chances of any kind of crash as much as possible.
 
Thanks for all the excellent comments, folks! I will take all your points into consideration, definitely. A few replies:
* My husband has electronic shifting on his analog Trek Emonda (Shimano) and loves it. I have arthritis in my thumbs already, and it's likely only a matter of time for my fingers, as both my parents have/had it, grandparents too. So, even though I don't have to have electronic shifting, I do like the idea. I realize it can fail and is more complex, so I would happily go with mechanical if it worked well. I have mechanical on my Kona Dew-e DL (flat bars), but it is a thumb joint workout and is a bit painful at times for me.
Electronic shifting is very reliable. I've not heard of a component to going out unless damaged. I'm sure one has but it's rare. Electronic shifting is like a downhill or tailwind for your hands. Another advantage since is it's so much easier to shift so you will be more likely to always be in the correct gearing. You do need to remember to check it or charge it periodically. Learn how to check the battery and put a recurring event on the calendar.
 
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