Trek Domane+ - non_OEM solutions for Kiox mount, and lighting suggestions.

[FInx]

If you want extended range and fast charging, you can also get a GrinTech Satiator charger . You won't even need to carry the spare. Can charge it @6amps, the battery is between 11.6-12.6ah , very okay to charge @6ah, even 6.5.

@Ebiker01 , You need to be careful about dispensing this kind of advice here.

I just looked at this charger on Amazon, and in the reviews/question and answers section, Grin themselves says this won't work with Bosch systems without 'hacking' the system.

Amazon.com

Here is a screenshot.

At best, someone could be spending north of $300 on a charger that won't work. At worst, they could cause damage to a very expensive battery/motor system and invalidate the warranty at the same time.

Even if it did 'work' out of the box, I'm not going to take a chance fast charging what amounts to a $1000 battery and take a chance on compromising it or reducing it's service life.

Also, this unit requires AC power, and where I normally ride, that is not an option (i.e. out in the boonies)

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Big huge props to the Bosch guys weighing in on this thread. Terrific information.

 

[FInx]

Big huge props to the Bosch guys weighing in on this thread. Terrific information.

I agree @Saratoga Dave . Having the Bosch reps here is a huge plus for me. There is a lot of trepidation involved with spending big money on an eBike. One of the reasons I chose the Trek was Bosch' reputation for quality and durability.

Having participation from their support team here on the forums is another big plus for me.

 

[FInx]

Well, strike 2 on the Acid Mount Bracket for the Kiox.

I emailed the local Mustache and Cube dealers. Apparently the "Acid" brand is Cubes accessories brand (at least that's what I'm being told), and the Acid accessories are not available in the US - at least not yet.

I guess I need to make friends with some eBikers in the Europe somewhere and see if I can get someone to order one for me.

 

[Ebiker01]

@Ebiker01 , You need to be careful about dispensing this kind of advice here.

I just looked at this charger on Amazon, and in the reviews/question and answers section, Grin themselves says this won't work with Bosch systems without 'hacking' the system.

Amazon.com

Here is a screenshot.

View attachment 55824

At best, someone could be spending north of $300 on a charger that won't work. At worst, they could cause damage to a very expensive battery/motor system and invalidate the warranty at the same time.

Even if it did 'work' out of the box, I'm not going to take a chance fast charging what amounts to a $1000 battery and take a chance on compromising it or reducing it's service life.

Also, this unit requires AC power, and where I normally ride, that is not an option (i.e. out in the boonies)

Oh that i didn't knew. Thank you, made the wrong assumption that all it would have taken was just to swap the cable.
Bosch always makes it very difficult to do what ever you want on your ebike.

But here's a sure factory approved way not to waste 300$ on a fast 6amp charger !

The last one is the 6amps, i think that it is 245$+tax. William, the Bosch rep. can let us know how much it is exactly ?

Charger: The eBike charging device for a quick energy burst

Quick charging of Bosch eBike batteries: 50% charge and more after only an hour. The handy charging devices are lightweight, robust and easy to take with you on any tour.

www.bosch-ebike.com

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I wish I had some more positive responses for you , but here it goes:

The 6A charger is only available for select markets (EU, etc.). It is not sold in North America. A few issues one might experience if they decided to bring one to NA:

- It runs on 220v AC power, so a regular 110v wall outlet will not work. In other words, no safe way to plug it in.

- Since it is not a NA market product, there would be no warranty support.

If you are not in NA, you'd have to check with your local distributor or bicycle dealer for pricing. Bosch sells its eBike systems to OEMs, and spare/option parts are sold through a regional distributor. Bosch does not sell anything direct.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful on this!

 

[Ezliven]

Another problem with EU power vs US power is European power is 50 cycles per sec. and the US power is 60 cycles per sec.

 

[dblhelix]

A few issues one might experience if they decided to bring one to NA:

- It runs on 220v AC power, so a regular 110v wall outlet will not work. In other words, no safe way to plug it in.

You can use it with a step-down transformer. I speak from experience. Whether this is a desirable set-up is another story ...

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Another problem with EU power vs US power is European power is 50 cycles per sec. and the US power is 60 cycles per sec.

Definitely!

It is best to stay very far away from using a charger anywhere other than the intended region.

 

[FInx]

@William - Bosch Team , @Stephen - Bosch Team and all,

Well I have some big news to update this thread.

I was finally able to source one of the Acid Kiox mounts from an eBay seller in Germany. I saw it listed (complete with a Kiox controller and mount as a set), and messaged him asking if he would be willing to ship to the USA if I would cover the extra shipping. He was more than happy to, and after some adventures with customs in Frankfurt and NY, I received the mount yesterday.

It's perfect for what I want to do. Here are some pictures of my bar setup with the Kiox mounted next to my stem with the Acid mount and my Wahoo Roam on a Blendr two piont Out Front Mount.







This is exactly what I was hoping to get from the Kiox mount. The Kiox is still in my field of view, and the buttons are easily accessible. The Roam, which is my primary display for Nav/GPS/Ride Stats is out front where it belongs. The Blendr Mount has a second 'GoPro' style mount point below the Roam, which is where my Light and Motion NIP 800 will go once I get around to negotiating with my local Trek dealer to get the Bontrager lights removed and the wiring for the L&M connected without invalidating my warranty. I'd be happy and capable to do this myself, but they warned me that me dropping the motor would invalidate my warranty.

Unfortunately, things are not quite 100% copacetic.

I was able to remove the proprietary Trek light switch from my existing Kiox controller. Unfortunately, this made the mount for the controller incompatible with my handlebars. The BRC-350 unit apparently only comes with a 25.4mm (narrow bar) mount option. I haven't yet figured out a way to mount this to my 31.8mm road handlebars. It was late in the garage when I was working on this, and I was getting tired. I had some fairly hair-brained ideas. All would qualify as a 100% Bodge on GCN Hack or Bodge show. One involved zip ties. The other involved moldable thermoplastic. I could probably make something decent out of this, but it would surely take several tries to get it just right, and I'm not sure how strong it would be.

Ideally, I'd love to mount it on the inside or just behind the left shift lever, but I'm not sure the wiring would be long enough.

I'll spend the next few days searching around Amazon and other online marketplaces looking for some kind of a 31.8 to 25.4 adapter.






Anyway, two tasks left.

1. Get the lights swapped out. Hopefully with my Warranty in tact.

2. Find a way to mount the Kiox controls without baking the whole thing into a spectacular bodge.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Hey, that's great news on getting your hands on the parts!

I feel like there are some options out there for mounting 25.4 accessories to a 31.8 bar.

Something like this?

Problem Solvers Handlebar Accessory Mount (Black) (For 25.4 to 31.8mm Handlebars)

Problem Solvers Handlebar Accessory Mounts Features: Accessory mounting area: 22.2mm in diameter, 80mm long Mounts on handlebars from 25.4 to 31.8mm in... ADP-3R

www.performancebike.com

[I am not a legal expert, I am not part of Bosch's legal team. These are just my observations based on being a technical rep for Bosch, and many years working in bike shops.]

As long as the new lights are compatible, your Bosch warranty should be fine. Generally speaking, it's pretty hard to void an entire warranty, but specific claims can be nullified due to incompatible parts, defective parts, modification, improper use, damage, or improper installation (IBD or at-home DIY.) Or many other circumstances.

An IBD can certainly decide not to help you with warranty issues if they feel that your DIY work on the bike caused an issue, but this won't outright void an entire Bosch warranty. It can definitely void any service warranty or plan that your shop offers, if that is their policy. Companies like Bosch and Trek rely heavily on IBDs to be the "eyes and ears" for warranty claims. Making sure that you align and comply with your shop's policy is the safest bet.

 

[FInx]

Thanks @William - Bosch Team ,

I found something similar to that on Amazon and ordered one just to get the bike going.

I checked in on Trek's twitter askind them if dropping the motor to remove the OEM lights and replace them with the L&M would void my warranty. They said it wouldn't but of course they would prefer to have the shop do it.

FWIW, my local shop is a Trek owned store (not an IBD). The guys there are great, and easy to work with (as much as they can be during a pandemic). I do distinctly recall them telling me that dropping the motor would invalidate the warranty. This was not in the context of the light installation conversation. It was just a general point they made when I purchased the bike. I sent the manager an email asking them for clarification. Hopefully they'll be OK with it. I am really keen on preserving my warranty.

I typically do all of my own bike maintenance. I have a full set of tools and am prett comfortable with the work.

That said, I don't have the special tools needed to remove the crankset from this bike. I think Park sells them, and I may go ahead and order them.

Before I go ahead and start the light installation, I'll want to check on the Light and Motion installation manual to see if I need any additional parts, or if splicing/soldering is needed. I've no problem doing this kind of stuff, I just want to have clear instructions before I start.

Do you know if any settings will have to be changed in the system software (the dealer diagnostics or whatever it's called) for the lights ? For example, does the system automatically send the right amount of power to the lights (assuming it's different than the Bontrager), or does this have to be set in the software?

I'm also not clear on if I will need the Kiox light switch enabled, and what role that switch would play vs the physical button on top of the NIP800. I can't find anything talking about this online. I might have to give L&M a call to clarify this.

Lastly, I think I read somewhere that there is a fairly new firmware for this motor/battery system that supposedly improves performance/battery life? Are you aware of this? Is this something I would have to ask the bike shop for?

Thanks again for being here in the community and helping.

Jim

Edit to add: This is the 31.8 to 25.4 adapter I bought on Amazon. It was cheap and available for next day delivery. It should work until I find something I like better.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DFFPPL9/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_5OmbFbTJ2KBJN

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Thanks @William - Bosch Team ,

I found something similar to that on Amazon and ordered one just to get the bike going.

I checked in on Trek's twitter askind them if dropping the motor to remove the OEM lights and replace them with the L&M would void my warranty. They said it wouldn't but of course they would prefer to have the shop do it.

FWIW, my local shop is a Trek owned store (not an IBD). The guys there are great, and easy to work with (as much as they can be during a pandemic). I do distinctly recall them telling me that dropping the motor would invalidate the warranty. This was not in the context of the light installation conversation. It was just a general point they made when I purchased the bike. I sent the manager an email asking them for clarification. Hopefully they'll be OK with it. I am really keen on preserving my warranty.

I typically do all of my own bike maintenance. I have a full set of tools and am prett comfortable with the work.

That said, I don't have the special tools needed to remove the crankset from this bike. I think Park sells them, and I may go ahead and order them.

Before I go ahead and start the light installation, I'll want to check on the Light and Motion installation manual to see if I need any additional parts, or if splicing/soldering is needed. I've no problem doing this kind of stuff, I just want to have clear instructions before I start.

Do you know if any settings will have to be changed in the system software (the dealer diagnostics or whatever it's called) for the lights ? For example, does the system automatically send the right amount of power to the lights (assuming it's different than the Bontrager), or does this have to be set in the software?

I'm also not clear on if I will need the Kiox light switch enabled, and what role that switch would play vs the physical button on top of the NIP800. I can't find anything talking about this online. I might have to give L&M a call to clarify this.

Lastly, I think I read somewhere that there is a fairly new firmware for this motor/battery system that supposedly improves performance/battery life? Are you aware of this? Is this something I would have to ask the bike shop for?

Thanks again for being here in the community and helping.

Jim

You make a great point... I've become quite lazy in my use of the "IBD" acronym anytime I wish to describe a local bike shop, regardless of independent or corporate ownership status. I'll do better!


I need to tread lightly on topics of warranty, as there are (3) different parties involved, but Trek's response looks good.

If I had to guess, your lights are currently set to "permanently on," due to Trek's proprietary light setup, but your dealer should be able to make them "switchable on/off" for you. This would put the Kiox light button into play. As you said, the actual light itself may have a button as well.

The system supplies up to 1.5 A @ 12v for the lights. If the lights draw less, great! If they attempt to draw more, you'll get an error code, and a DU that won't provide support until you remedy the light situation. As long as your lights are within spec, they'll just take what they need from the DU light port. A reminder: if Trek has a proprietary light junction box somewhere in the frame, it might invalidate some of what I've said.

Any new software updates for the Bosch System will require dealer action in the form of the Bosch Diagnostic Tool software they have.

 

[FInx]

Thanks again @William - Bosch Team ,

I opened the packaging for my NIP and TUCK lights, and there are no 'connectors' for the connection to the motor. Just bare tinned wires. There literally NO instructions, other than how to strap the light to your seatpost and handlebars. I checked their website and only found the same 1 page pdf, but nothing about wiring. I tried to call support, but they have apparently stopped taking live support calls due to Covid (people are WFH and they didn't forward their phones). So, I sent an email asking for documentation, or guidance about the wiring.

Looking at the lights, it looks pretty simple. One Red wire and one Black wire. I'm guessing I'll be cutting the wire from the existing lights and splicing that connector to the L&M lights.
e
Seems odd for a company to not provide any guidance at all for the installation of something like this. Not a single hint of it on their website. I understand there are liability issues, and I'm sure they'd prefer me to take it to a shop. I'd prefer to do it myself. Especially considering the social distancing stuff. I'd rather make as few trips to the shop as possible just to minimize exposure for everyone involved.

Thanks again for your help William. It's great to have you guys here.

Jim

 

[FInx]

Well,

That $10 25.4mm adapter I bought on Amazon worked a treat. At first I was a bit put off by the tilt/angle of the buttons, but once I got it snugged up against the Kiox mount, and trimmed the 25.4mm tube down to the minimum length I needed to mount it securely, it actually works really well. Easily accessible with my hand on the tops of the bars, and tucked back out of the way. The alloy mount is more than rigid enough to make pressing the buttons easy. I'm definitely pretty happy with this.

I haven't ridden it yet, so hopefully everything will check out. I still need to remove the Bontrager lights and wire in the new Light and Motion lights. Once I do that, I'll schedule some service time with the shop to get the firmware updated and and make the settings changes (if any are needed).

I'm still waiting for the shop manager to reply to my email about the warranty, but at this point, I'm just going to do it and fall back on what Trek corporate told me about the warranty not being affected by user installing lights.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Oh wow! That mount snugs-up perfectly there, and good call on the trimming!

For connecting the lights, the red-to-red and black-to-black wiring plan should be correct, assuming there is no wonky design going on.

We always tell shops that for the simplicity of not having to cut into stock light wiring, they can source Bosch front and rear light wires. They'll come with the stripped, tinned wires like your light. Then it's just a matter of crimp or solder, depending on comfort level. We also always heavily emphasize to shops the importance of insulating/waterproofing the splice. Appropriately sized heat-shrink tubing (bonus if it has glue!!!) is a great way to accomplish this.

I think you should be OK. Most shops have this policy to protect themselves from some of the very weird stuff customers do to their bikes during DIY. I know I used the same line nearly everyday while working in multiple bike shops for 8+ years. In my personal experience, it is a rule that is there in case the shop needs to protect itself. To be clear, I'm not suggesting you break any rules, just sharing some thoughts.

 

[FInx]

Hey @William - Bosch Team ,

I was able to get the front light installed last night.

A couple of interesting tidbits you might be interested in...

The Trek light system (front and rear) was all wired into the same port on the motor. I believe this was done because of their proprietary 'high beam' switch, but I can't be sure. Needless to say, I was a little surprised they went this way. I don't know what the specs are (power/current draw), but they are obviously below the power output of a single port.

There was no other hardware in the system. Just the proprietary switch that was 'bolted' to the Bosch Kiox controller via the 25.4mm mount, the front light,and the rear light. I suspect there might be some electronics controlling the system inside the proprietary switch (or possibly inside the front light). See the picture for the entire system laid out.

I did end up cutting the connector plug from the bontrager system, and was able to use it to splice the NIP 800 into the Bosch motor. The wires from the connector plug were blue and white (as shown in the picture), and of course the NIP800 has red/black, so I guessed that Red went to white and Black went to Blue, and it worked. I did install the light semi-permanently, and soldered the splice and used non-glue type heat shrink.

Because I only had the one plug, and I didn't want to connect the rear lights to the same port on the motor, I only hooked up the front light. I actually have a pretty significant cluster of rear lights permanently mounted on the back of my Tailfin Trunk bag that consists of a Garmin Varia Radar and two Bontrager Flare RT lights, so I didn't have a pressing need for a rear light.

Once I source a light wiring kit for the Bosch motor (or just the plugs if they can be found separately), I will re-wire everything, using the proper heat shrink (with glue). At that time I'll also put heat shrink on the cables and brake lines coming off the handlebar going into the frame to clean that up (and remove the temporary electrical tape).

I took a quick ride around the neighborhood to test it out last night. The light works great. The system seems to be set to 'always on', and I cannot turn it off via the switch on the lights. That switch only transitions modes i.e. "Pluse-Low-Med-Superduperbright". The light is more than bright enough for my needs. The one thing I noted is that it gets pretty darned hot to the touch. Is this pretty normal?

Once I get the rear light installed, I'll take it to the shop to get the light switch enabled on the Kiox so I can turn the lights off and on from there. I'll also ask about firmware updates.

Again @William - Bosch Team , I cannot say enough about how grateful I am that you and @Stephen - Bosch Team participate in the community here. I know you are somewhat limited in what you can and can't say, but you've both given great advice here, and it helped me immensely to get this done.

Once I get the rear light wired in and have given it a thorough ops check, I'll post another update.

Thanks
Jim

 

[William - Bosch Team]

We've seen this on a fair amount of Trek products... using just the front light port to provide power to Trek's proprietary light distro system. Seems to work quite well, thought I'm still not 100% familiar with it.

I'd imagine you could roll with using the modified Trek design, or you could likely source individual front/rear light wires for Bosch. They sell them as a plug with wires from the factory. Unfortunately, no "plug only" designs. Would require special tools, and some tight working spaces to field-terminate this style.

I'm not sure about the "hot to touch" situation. Many modern lights have this same characteristic as they are generating quite a bit of light in a tiny package. L&M may be able to tell you more about expected running temps.

I know my Serfas 1000 Lumen night-riding light has explicit instructions to keep moving (air flow) or turn the light off. It gets hot.

 

[FInx]

We've seen this on a fair amount of Trek products... using just the front light port to provide power to Trek's proprietary light distro system. Seems to work quite well, thought I'm still not 100% familiar with it.

I'd imagine you could roll with using the modified Trek design, or you could likely source individual front/rear light wires for Bosch. They sell them as a plug with wires from the factory. Unfortunately, no "plug only" designs. Would require special tools, and some tight working spaces to field-terminate this style.

I'm not sure about the "hot to touch" situation. Many modern lights have this same characteristic as they are generating quite a bit of light in a tiny package. L&M may be able to tell you more about expected running temps.

I know my Serfas 1000 Lumen night-riding light has explicit instructions to keep moving (air flow) or turn the light off. It gets hot.

Thanks @William - Bosch Team ,

I have this system all installed and working using individual wires for the front and rear light connected to separate ports on the motor. I sourced the connectors on ebay (they were Supernova Bosch light install kits). I did a careful job of soldering the connections and used the adhesive type shrink wrap to secure the connections. The big challenge with the install was.. I literally spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to thread the rear light wiring through the seat tube, past the tube junction, and the iso speed, and then past the DI2 battery, which is mounted below the seat in the seat tube. There was only a very tiny (1/8") hold in the carbon tube where the seat and top tubes meet. It was barely big enough to fit the light wiring through it. I tried all of the tricks I knew, including the Park IR 1.2 wiring install kit, a piece of light string (heavy sewing thread) and a vacuum cleaner, and just a lot of plain old fashioned determination. I was finally successful with a guitar string. Specifically a .046 wound E string . Once I got past that hurdle, the rest was a cinch.

I am a bit perplexed about the functionality of the buttons on the lights. based on the fact that the software is set to "Always On, I can use the button on the front light to toggle between the various modes... (pulse, low, medium and high), but the button on the rear TUCK light (actually apparently called "VIS E-TL" seems to do nothing. That light is currently on in 'Pulse' mode as long as the Kiox is mounted and turned on. The manual seems to indicate that pulse is the only mode, which would lead me to believe that the button the light should turn it off an on. It doesn't. Sadly, Light and Motion support is pretty absymal. The phone number on their website just has a voicemail pointing at an email address. I have sent several emails to that email address, only one of which was answered. This is one where I asked for an installation guide for the wiring. The only response was "take it to your local bike shop, they'll know what to do" and closed the ticket. The problem is, my local bike shop (trek dealer) doesn't sell or service L&M products, and the only shop that does carry L&M doesn't do much in the way of ebikes, and none of those have Bosch systems. When I asked them if they could install the lights, all I got was a blank stare. It's not terribly important. I always have a flashing rear light on anyway, day or night, so it's ok, I just wish they provided a little better support.

I still need to find time to get the bike to the shop to have the system settings changed so I can turn the lights off/on via the Kiox light switch (right now they are always on).

The specific lights I used were the Light and Motion NIP800 and TUCK (VIS E-TL) rear lights. You can see the pictures of the front light mount setup in my previous posts.

The rear light was mounted using the GoPro mount provided in the TUCK packaging. I secured this to the back of my Bontrager seat using the 'Blendr' saddle mount point, and a 3D printed GoPro mount I found on Shapeways.

Bontrager Saddle Integrated GoPro Mount by MadBikeSkills on Shapeways

Check out Bontrager Saddle Integrated GoPro Mount by MadBikeSkills on Shapeways and discover more 3D printed products in Camera & Video.

www.shapeways.com

Really happy with this.

So overall, I'm much happier with the bike, and I love riding it. Sadly, due to Covid19, I'm not commuting to work, so the bike isn't getting a lot of use, but I to take it out on weekend rides on occasion.

Here are some more pictures of the setup I use.

This is my commuting setup. The Tailfin Trunk Bag contains my spares and tools, a little bike food and, when on longer rides, I take a second battery.



Here is the inside of the tailfin bag showing the Kaizen foam cutout for the battery.


And with the battery inserted


The front view showing lights, Wahoo Roam and the Kiox.


And the top view


This is the rear light and radar cluster. I use the Flare R's when I ride at night for extra visibility. The Garmin Varia Radar (Which is amazing BTW), is normally only on in "Radar Only" mode with the light off, but it's always available as light if needed.




Some of my spares and tools I carry in the trunk bag

@William - Bosch Team , Thanks again for your participation here. You and @Stephen - Bosch Team were very helpful.

I do have two more quick questions for you.

What size Torx are the motor mount bolts on the Performance Speed motor ? I have a set of Torx L wrenches and sockets. Both sets have a T-45 and a T-50, but the 50 was too big, and the 45 seemed a little loose in the socket head. They worked, but I was very careful to make sure I didn't strip them. Are these bolt heads an odd size (i.e. T-47) ? Or is it something proprietary? I'd like to make sure I have the correct tool for these before I try to remove the motor again.

Also is the motor in my bike considered Gen3 or Gen4 ?

Thanks again
Jim

 

[Ebiker01]

r Gen4

Hey, congrats for the impeccable customization of this top ebike ! This is a 2020 model, is def. a Gen. 4.
And they had released a few weeks ago an update , it goes up to 85NM now. Hv. to take it to the shop for them to upgrade the software version.
Enjoy the many rides ahead !!