Total e-bike ban after a fatality in Key Biscayne, FLA

[why?]

I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.

Apparently there were no witnesses to come forward. The boy's parents probably told him not to say anything.

Somekind of a ban would be a good start. Kids under 15 can only ride Class 1, not Class 2. Class 3 (25-28mph) not until they are 18 (adult).

 

[Djangodog]

I repeat... There's been no details on how the accident occurred. Estimated speed of each bike? Circumstances? Was the kid alone or in a pack? Injuries sustained?
What if the kid came around a blind corner not expecting her and was only going 12mph... then panicked crashing into her and knocking her off and into the curb where she hit her head?
Something similar actually happened to me at about that age on my bicycle and I ended up on the hood of a car kissing the windshield. Blind tight corner and I was more concerned about how fast I could go around the block. The driver wanted to kill me as I almost gave him a heart attack. I escaped with a few scrapes, shaken... AND educated. But sometimes life isn't so generous.

Still a tragedy.. but it may have been an accident as the police have deemed it. Or is he and ebikes automatically guilty because of past behavior of others?
I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.
Set reasonable rules and then make the punishment sting. Impound a few bikes with heavy fines and watch how things get better.

Middle of the road people.

If they figure out that his “ebike” is really an illegal electric motorbike the kid and the family may have some bigger problems than just banned e-bikes. Liability wise, if you are breaking the law the consequences can be extreme.

 

[Brian-s]

How's that?
People die everyday from avoidable accidents.
Yet we still have guns, opioids and even cars and go swimming... etc...

it might be true that people die every day from avoidable accidents. but to go back to an old movie, the joker rightly pointed out that expected deaths we just ignore. but when something unique and extraordinary happens we all freak out. as a result the normal kid gets hit by a normal bike ...normal business. Because e-bikes are still new and novel, we freak out with an ebike accident happens

 

[BlackHand]

Somekind of a ban would be a good start. Kids under 15 can only ride Class 1, not Class 2. Class 3 (25-28mph) not until they are 18 (adult).

Unfortunately, the FL state legislature chose to not include any age restrictions when they adopted the 3 class e-bike structure. I think pretty much every other state using the 3 class definition has age restrictions on class 3 at least.

 

[Rexlion]

This stuff is pretty good.
Whole bean and Swiss Water Process makes all the difference.


View attachment 171709
I drink the same dark roast high octane for my first cup and mix the decaf/dark roast 60/40 for any subsequent.
Makes a decent latte, espresso and macchiato

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

I need a dark roast as my morning coffee is a latte made with 50% milk. Light roast doesn't have enough flavor to be noticed. I don't mind a medium roast for an espresso though. The Lavazza decaf that has an excellent rating didn't even taste like coffee to me... Was more like toasted cardboard.
Florida is flat... But the heat and humidity could make an ebike attractive.

If they figure out that his “ebike” is really an illegal electric motorbike the kid and the family may have some bigger problems than just banned e-bikes. Liability wise, if you are breaking the law the consequences can be extreme.

I agree, especially if he was being reckless as well.
But there's just something odd about the silence on the details. No mention of bike class or even who was on the wrong side of the road. Everything I've read makes you think there is no further investigation or on going. Accident.
Perhaps because of the kid's age. . .

 

[FiremarshallDave]

Many of us in my area had gas powered mini bikes at that age. They were (are) illegal. But we quickly learned if we didn't piss people off and rode when and where it didn't affect others, the cops turned a blind eye.
Dumb parents and entitled kids ruin it for the rest of us sensible outlaws.

Give me an AMEN!

 

[FiremarshallDave]

At this point in time, I think the people arguing for a total e-bike ban have the better argument.

Civil action against irresponsible people (who might be unable to pay damages anyhow) is a poor substitute for preventing a wrongful death.

I'm all for it.... and we should also ban all motor cycles, and all cars and busses. Yes kids are killed by school busses ...and ban sugar and alcohol and guns and... you get my drift. You need to set speed limits and enforce them. no kid should be able to pull the blue wire that lets the controller have full power access. With the low power circuit in place speed would comply with U.S. law. First offense for under 16 is impoundment of the vehicle just like the mini bike of old. Should we as adults have access to more speed? Pass a motorcycle test. Demonstrate understanding of push away steering like a motorcycle and demonstrate braking proficiency. Carry personal liability insurance as well.

 

[FiremarshallDave]

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

At age 13 I rode my first 64mile bike rally. I could easily ride 25 mph on my 10 speed and did. Yes, if someone pulled in front of me and I t boned them it would not be pretty. People often overlook bikes and pull in front of me. I ride very defensively as I value my life and have 50 years of riding experience. I know when to use speed and when to exercise caution. Cars doors scare me! Pedal bikes can be every bit as dangerous. How do we say you can pedal at 20-25 but can't use an ebike at the same speed? Some kids are responsible and some are not. Know your kid. I did work in a bike shop and had a 56 tooth front ring on a high end road bike. There were times I was over the speed limit but no officer ever pulled over a kid on a bike for speeding. I'm sure it's coming. Set up radar if the kids are out of hand and impound a few bikes then chat with parents when they come to the station. Don't let the karen's ruin life for everybody. Perhaps next year we will see a speed limit on the Tour De France of 17MPH. It would make for an interesting race. Perhaps settled by kicking and punching and lawyers to see who wears the yellow jersey.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm all for it.... and we should also ban all motor cycles, and all cars and busses. Yes kids are killed by school busses ...and ban sugar and alcohol and guns and... you get my drift. You need to set speed limits and enforce them. no kid should be able to pull the blue wire that lets the controller have full power access. With the low power circuit in place speed would comply with U.S. law. First offense for under 16 is impoundment of the vehicle just like the mini bike of old. Should we as adults have access to more speed? Pass a motorcycle test. Demonstrate understanding of push away steering like a motorcycle and demonstrate braking proficiency. Carry personal liability insurance as well.

You are making the assumption that such decisions are based on cold hard statistics rather than on perceptions.

E-bikes have a very negative perception with the general public, the news media, and with elected officials. That negative perception is going to drive more bans on e-bikes. Whataboutism isn't going to fix that.

There is an undeniable safety issue with e-bike battery fires. While one can argue about the exact reasons why, I don't think anyone can seriously argue that higher safety standards are not required for e-bike batteries and chargers. To a large extent that is the easiest problem to solve, because it is largely a technological and engineering problem.

There is an undeniable safety issue with children operating e-bikes. In particular when unsupervised and untrained children operate e-bikes that were never intended for operation by children.

Moreover, there is a substantial safety issue in the fact that an e-bike permits a less skilled and less fit cyclist to ride a much less maneuverable bike at higher speeds. Many have argued that "well, some roadies go 20+mph so why can't we?" Well, the simpler answer is a that a roadie who can hit 20+mph is way more skilled and experienced at the safe operation of his bike than the average e-biker could ever hope to be, and nearly any fast road bicycle is much more nimble than even the most maneuverable e-bikes. I've observed inexperienced cyclists on rental e-bikes in a number of locations and yeah, those people had no business being on an e-bike and were a danger to themselves and others.

What its going to take to keep e-bikes on the roads and trails:

1. E-bikers have to be active in community meetings and discussions about access for bicycles in general and e-bikes in particular.
2. E-bikers have to be perceived as positive contributors to the community and not as a nuisance.
3. E-bikers have to be willing to make some compromises. Some of those compromises we might not like but the choice is going to be that or nothing at all.

 

[m@Robertson]

The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There isn't going to be an all or nothing ban that sticks. Ever.

I would boil down the musts to this:

1. People have to keep buying ebikes.

When there's one in every garage, you will gain very little traction trying to ban them or otherwise create a BS rule that has no basis in reality. Further, an elected official has much less upside to pissing off all of the registered voters who put them in office and can also vote them out.

In other words... play the long game and stop worrying.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There isn't going to be an all or nothing ban that sticks. Ever.

Please explain how that would work. Given that e-bikes are a tangible physical product that you can't hide and has a large supply chain that needs to be operating behind it to keep it working and in existence.

Banned e-bikes would be subject to confiscation. Most folks aren't going to risk letting something that they spent thousands of dollars on be taken away, or for that matter spend thousands of dollars on something that they lose if they operated it outside...

Banned e-bikes means they couldn't be sold in bike shops or even have spare parts distributed. So even if you have one it won't be running for very long...

Banned e-bikes mean your LBS couldn't and wouldn't work on it. So the large percentage of e-bikers who can't fix a flat won't be riding for very long...

Banned e-bikes means you couldn't operate a business renting e-bikes. 'nuff said.

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

 

[jabberwocky]

When there's one in every garage, you will gain very little traction trying to ban them or otherwise create a BS rule that has no basis in reality. Further, an elected official has much less upside to pissing off all of the registered voters who put them in office and can also vote them out.

In other words... play the long game and stop worrying.

Its a nice thought, but I'll eat my hat if even 25% of households own an ebike within my lifetime. Bicycles have been around for well over a century, and motorcycles just about as long, and while both have carved out a niche for themselves neither have ever built up ownership numbers that enables them to be regulation proof. I see ebikes as a nice in-between, but its hard to imagine them massively changing the transportation landscape, as nice as that sounds to those of us who like to ride them.

I wouldn't bank on ownership numbers or outright popularity to ever just hand us what we want.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

I would extend this thought further and suggest it may seem stupid to us, but could be perfectly logical for the government if the outcry from banning (or heavily regulating) is less of a concern that doing something to assuage citizens who have issues with them.

I don't personally think widespread outright bans are likely at the moment, but I definitely see the ebike community accumulating a very poor reputation with some jurisdications and other user groups. If we keep it up, those chickens will eventually come home to roost in some form.

 

[PDoz]

So the police are still investigating? But they have already been given the power to confiscate these motorbikes?

Would it be reasonable to assume that if the police believed this ban was justified, every one of these kids would be walking by now? Even one cop who believed in this would be enough.

Imagine if the 12 yo was trying to escape from danger

 

[m@Robertson]

Please explain how that would work. Given that e-bikes are a tangible physical product that you can't hide and has a large supply chain that needs to be operating behind it to keep it working and in existence.

Simple. There's too many of them to enforce a ban. Try enforcing a ban on bicycles. When ebikes are that common, the level of trouble needed to enforce some kind of ban is going to be far more trouble than its worth. Right now, in my community, I think ebike commuters and recreational riders, combined (i.e. all bike riders) probably outnumber bicycles. Maybe by rather a lot. I count as I go about my regular routes and - in a community with rather a lot of bikes on the paths and the roads, sometimes I see 75% ebikes.

My community enforced a 12 mph ebike-on-the-path speed limit a couple of years ago IIRC. Comments at the time were centered along the lines of "how will you enforce that?" The answer is they don't. But it also signaled the complete disappearance of city-council-based complaints. We did see a few bicycle cops on the path for awhile but they disappeared fairly quickly. Not a surprise that funding dried up in favor of better uses for the resources.

Banned e-bikes would be subject to confiscation. Most folks aren't going to risk letting something that they spent thousands of dollars on be taken away, or for that matter spend thousands of dollars on something that they lose if they operated it outside...

Easy to type that and thats it. Confiscating personal property lawfully acquired is, frankly, ridiculous to even contemplate. Think for a minute how utterly impossible it has been to try that with firearms. Move towards private property confiscation (again... where that property was lawful at the time of purchase and lawfully acquired) and that is a can of worms with zero chance of success.

The NYC confiscations were done on bikes that were never lawful in that jurisdiction, so they don't count.

Banned e-bikes means they couldn't be sold in bike shops or even have spare parts distributed. So even if you have one it won't be running for very long...

You can't even do that with gun parts. What are you going to do? Scan the mails from AliExpress? Do you realize what kind of infrastructure that would require? Again thats easy to type but an enormous amount of actual resources (legal and physical) to actually make happen somewhere besides an internet forum discussion.

Banned e-bikes mean your LBS couldn't and wouldn't work on it. So the large percentage of e-bikers who can't fix a flat won't be riding for very long...

NYC can't even shut down underground battery 'repair' shops. When there is a buck to be made, people will step into that vacuum. But again I don't see any chance of it getting this far outside of a forum post. For such a thing to happen a lot of other extremely unlikely things have to happen first.

Banned e-bikes means you couldn't operate a business renting e-bikes. 'nuff said.

Yeah thats true. But so what? That isn't going to do a thing to prevent ebikes from being in private hands. If anything it would mean more people buy them if they can't rent the things.

Here locally, a couple of shops rent Surrey bikes. Those things are an absolute menace and I can remember one day with two separate paramedic trucks at different places along the main community bike path where children had been smashed into by them. Everybody hates the things and for good reason. But they're still being rented. The businesses are local, they pay taxes and no local politician on general principles wants to shut down a longtime local business... or be seen doing that. This is another argument that gains far more traction on the internet than it does in real life.

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

This isn't going to be one of those. Sure lesser things can and will happen. Stuff like UL certification.

A whole other angle to this that hasn't been contemplated: Ebikes are the only real bright spot in the profit/loss statements of many bicycle manufacturers, and that industry makes contributions and has lobbyists. Again to address the narrow question of the possibility of a ban: This is one more reason a ban is simply never going to come close to happening.

Still another angle: Ebikes are a key to a progressive clean air agenda at a policy level. The government WANTS more ebikes from a long term policy perspective (at least that is certainly true here in California). They aren't going to give up on that because of some Nervous Nellies trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer, which is what any talk of a total ban is ... and then some.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its a nice thought, but I'll eat my hat if even 25% of households own an ebike within my lifetime.

Of course I was speaking broadly for the sake of succinctness (which sounds hard to believe coming from me). I don't expect universal adoption. But what I do expect, over the course of years, is for the 'e' in ebike to become the norm and not the exception for the people who buy bicycle-shaped objects. It is clearly on the way there now, and we are seeing some not unexpected growing pains as a result. Not the least of which come from parents handing their kids ebikes and failing to actually be parents and teach them safety.

Given that, change the "electric bicycle ban" to "bicycle ban" and while the former may seem do-able in a forum argument, the latter is recognizably impossible on its face. Our society is moving in that direction. I see no sign of this changing, and no credible source claiming it will other than a general market downturn that has nothing to do with ebikes. The AMA report on ebike injuries late last year noted an enormous increase in ebike purchases in just the last couple of years.

 

[6zfshdb]

Here's another thought.

On the many trails I frequent, I've seen an explosion of e-bikes in the last 2 years. Now, every third bike I pass is an e-bike. Federal and state parks WANT people to use their facilities and their budgets depend on it. Sure, there will be e-bike regulations but never an outright ban.

 

[PatriciaK]

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes. The thing ridden by the 12 year old that killed the unfortunate woman is NOT, in my opinion, an ebike. The vehicles lined up outside the school in the picture are NOT ebikes. Those things ought to be able to be easily regulated. They should be illegal for anyone too young for a learners' permit to operate in any public space. They should require some sort of registration and licensing at the appropriate age (15), and at that time should be operated only on streets. All of the vehicles by the school should be impounded.

We really need to work to separate ebikes from any type of emotos, especially in the minds of those doing the regulating and banning.

 

[Robspace1]

Folks,
Do we ban all cars when someone is hit or dies because of one? We have 43,000 automotive related deaths per year in the U.S. My aunt Lucile with Parkinsons was hit by a regular road bike an died in New Hampshire. No fault found. These are called accidents for a reason. Think of the upside of fewer cars on the roads and of micro-mobility accessibility. Yes, accidents do happen. We have come to accept that fact. It is better with 40 pounds at 20 mph or 4,000 pounds at 55 mph. All the clunky inexpensive internet only eBikes have hand throttles or can be ghost pedaled, but it is what parents can afford. These kids are our future, and they are moving in the right direction, toward green micro-mobility.

"All the clunky inexpensive internet only eBikes have hand throttles or can be ghost pedaled, but it is what parents can afford." Wtf? I bought my ebike online 3 years ago. It has a throttle. I only use it on takeoffs. My bike is great, 1000 watts, and super safe. The problem is not the vehicle but it's rider. A 12 year old boy is simply not responsible enough to handle motorized bikes. Should be a 15 year age limit in place for any ebike, one wheel, or scooter put on the street.