Torque Sensor vs Throttle

[charlie g]

the 350w bafang max motor throttle doesn't kick in till 6mph on the Evelo Galaxy models but to counter this evelo said you set yr computer in turbo mode and as soon as you add pressure to the petal the torque sensor sends the motor to full throttle?

If thats the case..do the other manuf's also operate this way? I've been specifcally shopping the cruiser types for the Bafang BBS02 with full throttles, but Evelo Galaxys only option is the 350Max with torque sensor?

If these torque sensors operate this way..then I'll also include other motors besides Bafang. Help

 

[Nova Haibike]

Yamaha motors have what they call Zero-Cadence; the motor provides support the moment you apply even the smallest amount of pressure to the pedals. The amount depends on which level of support is chosen.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

With my CrossCurrent S, I have to be careful not to bump into the pedals when walking the bike, as it will trigger the motor and lurch forward. So yeah, the torque sensor is pretty sensitive. I can feel the motor kick in as soon as I start pedaling.

 

[6zfshdb]

500 watt Pedego hub motors respond to the throttle at 0 mph. I often use it instead of pedaling to get going on hills. The torque sensor is not that sensitive. The pedal pressure required varies depending on what assist level is chosen.

 

[rich c]

Fairly safe to say that no two manufactures program the same. Even on the exact same control systems hardare, the factory settings will vary.

 

[rannyv]

My 2 cents - I was riding a cadence sensor + thottle BBS-HD setup and switched to a Bosch 28 MPH bike (there naming conventions confuse and allude me). After riding the Bosch bike for a while, I took the BBS-HD bike out for a spin and was shocked how much effort getting that thing going from a stand still can take. Apparently, the cadence sensor takes a while to kick in and I never noticed until switching to the Bosch system. For sheer power, the BBS-HD kicks A$$. But the Bosch, particularly on my bike, is easier to ride with pedal only assistance. And it's nice not to think about applying throttle when you want an extra boost. That throttle can be addictive.

 

[Ken M]

Seems to me that the only way a rider can ALWAYS get the assist level desired is to allow throttle mode (sadly regulations are established to limit throttle mode ebikes to 20mph which is not popular with serious urban commuters). Otherwise the controller program must process signal levels from torque, cadence, speed, and/or assist level setting to establish the assist power provided. A appropriate/applicable question is: Can a control program be written that is truly desirable for all riders under all conditions? I understand the desire of programmers to think they are so skilled they can accomplish this, but given years of riding a motor cycle and driving a car it seems to me that a throttle is the KISS (keep in simple stupid) way to allow a rider to get the exact assist level they want al the time. Fine, have a pedelec program but allow the throttle to over-ride the programming when the throttle is utilized.

I do like the idea of not allowing throttle function until say about 5mph because that will save a huge amount of power wasted to get a bike started from stop which is really when a rider is most effective as they can literally apply full weight to the pedals for a couple of crank turns. You have to be a pretty lazy rider to not be able to get a bike to 5mph fairly quickly (assuming the drive train gearing is optimized). I know this will be a controversial opinion as a lot of ebike riders like to use a throttle to get started from a stop but that is a significant battery drain factor (this is where a variable setting programming would make sense - allow the rider to set the lower limit of when the throttle is functional).

 

[rannyv]

Getting the bike going to ~5 with human power is OK unless you have a heavy bike and lots of stop and go. I switched my commute route to avoid the danger of constant 4 ways intersections and stop and go found on the bike route. It's also hard on the brakes.

 

[Alex M]

do the other manuf's also operate this way?

Of course not. Throttle work depends on how controller is programmed and set up.
Very many hubs have throttle that can be activated from standstill, - doesn't mean you always should.
Some have throttle tied to your PAS level - ex, on PAS 1 throttle would only output 20% of max power, on PAS 2 - 40% and so on.
Some other allow you to choose max throttle power, i.e. it will never go over 50% even if you twist it all the way up.

 

[AHicks]

One of the reasons I replaced the entire electrical system on my month old Rad City was the slow response, on both the PAS (pedal assist system) and the throttle. Prior to getting the Rad, I had been riding a bike with more power, and near immediate PAS/throttle response. When I told it to go, we were moving (yes, I was spoiled). The Rad on the other hand, seemed like it didn't want to startle anyone with something like that. Even half way up a hill when you rolled on the throttle to maintain your momentum, you have to wait for it to spool up. Which way is right? Immediate response or soft start? I think if they're going to do something like that (soft start) the owner of that bike should have a say in just how "soft" they want that start up. They have other choices/parameters available, and controlling the amount/degree of the soft start is easily controlled. All they have to do is set it up in the firmware as another option, just like setting your max speed or wheel size, or PAS level for that matter. Maybe they're saving that ability to sell you next years model......

 

[ebikemom]

Which way is right? Immediate response or soft start? I think if they're going to do something like that (soft start) the owner of that bike should have a say in just how "soft" they want that start up.

I completely agree. Folks that are quite a bit older may benefit from slower responsiveness since they have slower reaction times, but those with good reaction times do, I think, appreciate responsive PAS and a responsive throttle. There was some discussion on a Pedego FB group about this, because there are some different Pedego controllers out there (different firmwear, I guess) that are more or less responsive. Some folks liked the less responsive controller, others hated it.

Someone there suggested a "granny mode." I think it would be great if in the settings there were a way to choose a responsiveness level, maybe "highly responsive" versus "moderately responsive" or something like that.

Another issue with PAS bikes is how many levels are and what the speed cut-offs are. Again, different folks seem to have different preferences. In the two different controllers I've experienced, one has a cut-off of 12 mph for PAS 1 for example, and another went up to 8mph. Again, older folks seemed to prefer the PAS to have a lower ceiling on PAS 1 (for example, to cycle with grandkids). My family members, though, like the zippier feel of PAS 1 going up to 12mph. If we want to go 8mph, who needs PAS at all?

OH, and some older users prefer a class 1 bike with just a throttle. This gives them total control to add power to their pedaling at any time.

I hope that over time there will be a wider variety of control given to the end-user. I'm sure this sort of thing must vary widely from brand to brand. I have no way of making comparisons, and my experience is quite limited.

 

[AHicks]

All it's going to take is for people to keep griping about it. It's very possible to have user definable amounts of PAS and throttle power using technology that's available today. If nothing else, they have electricity down pat. They know what they're doing with it.

I don't know how many production bikes use a KT LCD3 display w/compatible controller, but they have many user definable parameters for the way power is handled (max amperage available, PAS and throttle options, and on and on, way too much to get into here) all using parameters easily changed using the display. No dragging out a laptop and hooking up a cable necessary.

I would hope that similar user definable settings become more common place as this e-bike technology unfolds. My best guess regarding why you don't see much more of it right now is the bike manfs fear that people won't educate themselves prior to using a fairly complicated menu of what can be done now, leading to major tech support requirements. Somebody that gets in there and just starts pushing buttons to see what happens could shut the system down pretty easily. KT works around that now by having a reset available, taking things back to the way they were when they gave it to you. Doesn't explain what you did wrong, but it does put you back in business......

This KT equipment isn't expensive either. $150. should set you up with the display and the controller (yes, 150.). The company that does something similar in a more user friendly manner, with settings available for some of the kinds of things we could really use in today's world - or things we haven't even considered yet, will hit a home run. That's what I'm looking forward to.

 

[Alex M]

Manufacturers mostly do a good balancing job, designing controllers so that it would protect the motor while also satisfying a wide range of customers. Interface/display on many bikes limits what parameters customers may and may not adjust - yes, they could've improved on this, but again, many customers want it "simple", it's not easy to please everybody.

One other thing should be mentioned. A lot depends on what motor you have - direct drive, geared hub, low-speed or high-speed winding. At low speed and/or when starting from standstill a geared hub like the one that the OP has, would struggle more than direct drive, so it makes sense when controller is trying to protect it, preventing such a mode.

IMO, the title is confusing - it's not about "Torque sensor vs throttle", but about controller, control interface and motor.

 

[rich c]

I completely agree. Folks that are quite a bit older may benefit from slower responsiveness since they have slower reaction times, but those with good reaction times do, I think, appreciate responsive PAS and a responsive throttle. There was some discussion on a Pedego FB group about this, because there are some different Pedego controllers out there (different firmwear, I guess) that are more or less responsive. Some folks liked the less responsive controller, others hated it.

Someone there suggested a "granny mode." I think it would be great if in the settings there were a way to choose a responsiveness level, maybe "highly responsive" versus "moderately responsive" or something like that.

Another issue with PAS bikes is how many levels are and what the speed cut-offs are. Again, different folks seem to have different preferences. In the two different controllers I've experienced, one has a cut-off of 12 mph for PAS 1 for example, and another went up to 8mph. Again, older folks seemed to prefer the PAS to have a lower ceiling on PAS 1 (for example, to cycle with grandkids). My family members, though, like the zippier feel of PAS 1 going up to 12mph. If we want to go 8mph, who needs PAS at all?

OH, and some older users prefer a class 1 bike with just a throttle. This gives them total control to add power to their pedaling at any time.

I hope that over time there will be a wider variety of control given to the end-user. I'm sure this sort of thing must vary widely from brand to brand. I have no way of making comparisons, and my experience is quite limited.

Those kind of controllers already exist. https://electricbiketechnologies.com is the broad cover of several different websites. They sell a lot of product geared toward older or limited riders. They post nice videos on youtube for adjusting parameters on their kits and trikes. I have the Sunseeker Fat-Tad that they sell and have used a couple of different settings to configure it to my riding style.
I thought Class 1 and Class 2 were only different by the factory installed throttle. Isn't a Class 1 with just a throttle a Class 2? If older Class 2 riders only use the throttle and not move their feet, what's the difference of them having PAS or not having it?