Tongsheng assist levels

[RickBradford]

I have recently bought a Tongsheng TSDZ2 torque sensor mid-drive, which has 4 modes - Eco, Tour, Sport and Turbo. It is said that this provides assist levels "from 36% to 300%". So if Eco provides 36% assist, and Turbo provides 300%, what levels of assist do the intermediate Tour and Sport modes give?

I originally thought it might be a simple doubling between levels, say 36%, 73%, 150%, 300% (nearly fits), but that doesn't fit in with the actual riding experience, which feels more like 36%, 100%, 200%, 300%.

Does anyone know the true figures?

 

[PedalUma]

Hi Rick,
Welcome. Good question. I have used hundreds of these motors. Part of it has to do with the firmware version. Your estimation is accurate based on what I read several years ago. And is consistent with my experience. The new firmware is V5. I am loving the 'B' version of these motors. Oh, and on the VLCD-5 display you can set the maximum Amps which will change the feel of the motor. I also play with other factors to get the feel that I personally like most. I like high power delivery at high cadence so it feels like a bike.

 

[RickBradford]

Thanks for the helpful reply. I would certainly like to tinker with the firmware - I find 300% way too much, and 36% rather too low. I think that 50-100-150-200 would suit me better. But I'm a bit dubious about reading through 2000 lines of C code (posted elsewhere on the forum) and flashing the firmware.

I have the VLCD-5 display, and the hidden functions seem quite straightforward except something called 'Power adjustment selection', which talks about levels between 6 and 35, which I don't understand. I didn't see any specific way to limit the current.

Any more advice about how to gently tweak this motor to fit better with my riding style would be much appreciated.

 

[PedalUma]

Rick,
I like to remove the speed sensor, with no throttle and no cutout levers. Try it for a day to compare. This feels so much better in my opinion. I set wheel size to the smallest available option and speed limit to 45. Power adjustment selection is Amps. 17 is good, 20Amps can heat this up on Turbo for an extended period. Always use the lowest gear that is comfortable with the highest cadence that is comfortable. There is really no need to alter the firmware. Much like an Italian spots car, to accelerate down shift to increase revs before up shifting. And like a sports car with a clutch, back off on pedal pressure or coast for a second when making a shift. This will extend the life of your drive train. See some videos on 'How to Pedal Like a Pro'. Smooth power all around the pedal stroke is much better for the motor's bearings and for you, and prevents two spikes to the controller per revolution, so it is better for the controller as well. Your pedaling technique should be light, smooth and fast. This requires extra grippy platform pedals. If interested you can see some of my builds with local comments on Google Maps. Oh, your command of English is impressive. Look about 65 Km North of the Golden Gate Bridge for the city of Petaluma, California. Then search for PedalUma eBikes. I would very much like to see a photo of your bike in its natural habitat. I will be leading a large group ride today with press coverage and city officials with local advocate groups. The US has a car culture. Bikes are largely viewed as toys. My theme for the ride is safely leaving cars behind while connecting schools with shopping. It should be fun.

 

[RickBradford]

Thanks again for the detailed help. I am glad to say that I follow many of the best practices you recommend - I never installed the throttle, for example, and I always back off the pedals when shifting. I do tend to stay in a higher gear than may be optimal, though, probably a result of my 'training' on a cadence sensor bike. I could certainly use better pedals (and footwear). I'll take a dive into those settings to see what I can adjust.

One thing that has surprised me about this motor is its relatively poor climbing. With a 500W front hub drive and strong pedalling, I could climb even the steepest hills at 22-24kph, but with the Tongsheng I find it hard to get above 20kph. The torque supplied by the Tongsheng doesn't seem to match the two-wheel drive power of a front hub plus rear pedal power.

 

[PedalUma]

Okay. Try disconnecting the speed sensor and going for a higher cadence on hills with that back sweep and up pull on the pedals for smoothness. No thumping. Spinning. Something I forgot to mention is start the display while rolling the bike backwards slightly. And never start it with your foot on the pedal. Lightweight rock climbing shoes are nice but there is no need to overspend. Check those videos. Let me know what you think.

 

[RickBradford]

What is the trick behind disconnecting the speed sensor?

All my settings in the service menu seem to match your suggestions. The main problem seems to be that after 8500km on a cadence sensor bike, I need some re-education on how to ride a realistic bicycle again.

(I nearly got to Petaluma once, but was sidetracked in Mill Valley ......)

 

[PedalUma]

The speed sensor has a yellow band on it's connector. And extends back to the wheel magnet. You could just remove the magnet to try that, or pull apart the connector. Same thing. Your odometer will be disabled as well as your speedometer. But who cares. Bikes don't have those anyway. This will make the bike perky. It will stop trying to second guess you, while getting rid of lag. I lived in Mill Valley for many years. It is a fine place to get sidetracked.

 

[RickBradford]

Right. So the motor firmware is using the speed data in some way to adjust the power output? I guess there's a reason for that, but I can't think what it is ...

 

[PedalUma]

Right. So the motor firmware is using the speed data in some way to adjust the power output? I guess there's a reason for that, but I can't think what it is ...

I think it is to 'smooth' the ride. I had a bike in 2019 with narrow chain stays and the speed pickup was too wide to fit. So, I didn't install it. Then a year later I figured out a work around modification and installed it. Suddenly the bike was a dud. Now the odometer will forever read 1.3 Km. Removing it was the cure. The bike came back to life. If you are going to have an 8-pin with a throttle (which I do for seniors and the disabled) you must have a working speed sensor.

 

[RickBradford]

I should have mentioned earlier that I switched from the LCD5 display which came with the motor to a 500c display, which is far superior. You can choose between 3, 5 and 9 different assist levels, max speed cutout and other interesting items. It's very much changed the feel of the bike for me.

 

[Art Deco]

Following this thread .

 

[feet]

Hi,
Does anyone know the answer to the OP's original question? Further, any insights on the below?

I tried to take delivery of my recumbent yesterday, converted to add this 750w motor.

I took it for a test ride up a pretty steep hill next to the bike shop. On eco the motor kicked in as soon as I put any pressure on the pedals, and basically dragged me up the hill, at speed, while just turning the pedals over, i.e. applying pretty much zero torque.

Coming back to the shop, it felt like the motor was engaging downhill as well (not even turning pedals) and I was on the brakes constantly to keep the speed down and make the motor disengage.

It was pretty scary really, as it felt as if I had to rely on the brake cut out to prevent the trike taking me off under a car, potentially.

Perhaps pertinent to some of the points above, the shop owner has told me that he couldn't get the speed or battery level showing up on the display, so the speed cable was just disconnected and cable tied out of the way. I wasn't happy about this, but I don't need the speed displayed and I can press the button on the battery to see battery charge, though it's not ideal. I guess this could have something to do with the odd performance?

To the OP's original question, as I am/was a keen cyclist, but now have a disability, I was happily commuting on my recumbent, but it was a slow slog up hills and keeping speed up on long gentle hills, so I was planning to keep it on the lowest setting (or off) and was just looking for some assist to do a decent speed up steep hills and to keep up to speed on the flat / long gentle hills. Even 33% assist would potentially be too much on the gentler hills. I still want to be 'cycling' and I still need the exercise.
The bike shop owner seemed surprised that I wasn't happy with my 'motorbike' as I dubbed the conversion.

Thanks for any insights, sorry for the long post.

 

[PedalUma]

the motor was engaging downhill as well (not even turning pedals)

The shop owner messed up. How many pins to the display? You would need to cross wires on an an eight pin to do this. Is the insulated lead to the display about 7mm thick? Or, 4mm? Bottom line, this is very wrong.

 

[Catalyzt]

Thanks again for the detailed help. I am glad to say that I follow many of the best practices you recommend - I never installed the throttle, for example, and I always back off the pedals when shifting. I do tend to stay in a higher gear than may be optimal, though, probably a result of my 'training' on a cadence sensor bike. I could certainly use better pedals (and footwear). I'll take a dive into those settings to see what I can adjust.

One thing that has surprised me about this motor is its relatively poor climbing. With a 500W front hub drive and strong pedalling, I could climb even the steepest hills at 22-24kph, but with the Tongsheng I find it hard to get above 20kph. The torque supplied by the Tongsheng doesn't seem to match the two-wheel drive power of a front hub plus rear pedal power.

I am just experimenting with one of Pedal's TSDZ2B builds now, which I'll review in detail later. A few quick thoughts:

* Some of what you are experiencing in terms of slower uphill speed may just be the difference between hub and mid drives. It takes a lot of getting used to! My old front hub drive went up steep hills pretty fast, too-- up to a point, and then at about 15% grades, I really needed to shift into the super-granny gear on my Shimano Mega-Range cluster. My 40nm Shimano mid-drive could handle far steeper terrain, well over 20% for short stretches, but it was a lot of work! At least it was possible. I couldn't have gone up 20%+ grades on the front hub drive at all.

But at first, the switch to mid drive it was disorienting, like, "Is this thing on? I'm going so slow!" Then I realized, "Well, this hill is insanely steep."

* The TSDZ2 does seem a bit sluggish on the hills than I expected, but still has more power than the Shimano 40nm mid drive. I've ridden an EP8 (85nm) exactly once, and so far, the TSDZ2 feels a bit less powerful than that-- more like 65 to 70nm, though the acceleration on flat terrain is much more like the EP8, possibly even faster. I'd believe 95nm on level ground. However, on my build, the low gear is not very low the way the bike is set up now, and the tires are pretty fat-- 2.3 inches. And it's a 29er, so those big wheels will be harder to turn.

* I was afraid my bike would be fast enough unrestricted to get me in trouble on flat terrain, but as a practical matter, I doubt I'll be exceeding 28 MPH. Could the bike do it? Maybe, but it would require a high cadence and a lot of effort.

* I'm finding the TSDZ a nice step up from my underpowered Shimano mid drive. It will still give me a workout. And I don't feel like it will rip through the chain, cluster, and chain ring, or put a lot of extra stress on the frame.

 

[Catalyzt]

The other thing I'm beginning to suspect: The TSDZ2B seems VERY efficient. Been out twice in steep hills and I'm still at 5 bars.

 

[harryS]

I've installed the TSDZ2 on two bikes this past year. Also did a Bafang BBS02 and a 500W hub motor, the latter two being cadence sensor. The Tongshengs certainly use the least amount of battery, but they also produce the least assist, so that's to be expected.
.
Tongshengs are good for a fit biker who can put out some pedal pressure. I've ridden over 10K miles on ebikes, but I couldn't originally press my TSDZ2 pedals hard enough to feel a difference til I got to the highest level on my first conversion, I installed the OSF firmware, which shifts the power curve over toward level 1 for us weaklings. Then I put on over 500 miles on my regular bike this summer to get in better shape. When I did a second TSDZ2B, it felt OK with factory settings, but I put in OSF firmware anyway. Fiddled with the OSF settings so my wife could ride a little faster with her weak pedal efforts. We'll see if she likes it or goes back to her hubmotor bikes.
.
I get about 70 watts in level 1 assist at 12 mph on my TSDZ2, compared to 100 watts indicated on my hubmotor ebikes. That suggests I am adding about 30 watts extra power, which is good for cardio, etc. It also allows me to run smaller batteries. I like both features.
.

.

 

[Catalyzt]

Now three short fitness rides, around 20-30 minutes, plenty of hills.

Still at 5 bars. And this is charged to 90%. Installing an odometer and speedometer, will start collecting better stats.

 

[PedalUma]

One time this week, charge it to 90 percent, then just before a ride take it up to 100 percent to load balance. It will give the feel a boost on future rides. When a premium battery is new, this will result sometimes in showing 1 bar on the HB display at 100%. But why?

Explanation: This display is used for voltages of batteries from 24-52. Imagine two bell curves, one for a 48V battery and another for a 52, with the right tail of the 48 overlapping the left tail of the 52. If the battery is at 54.5 volts how would the display know if it is a supercharged 48 or a typically charged 52? Hence it may show one bar and after a ride and restart show a full charge. I know, it is weird.

I want to see some LA bike porn photos. Anyone else?

 

[Catalyzt]

Ask And Ye Shall Receive...