To "Juice" or not ?

[bikerjohn]

Weather is moderating and temperatures are finally warming up a bit. After a 168 miles, every ride reaffirms my delight with the CCX. It's a great bike for commutes!
I was able to get in a decent work commute today!
Ride stats here: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3460364097

 

[treal512]

I've had a change of heart with Juiced. I've seen too many problems with the customer service and now I am experiencing this lack of service firsthand. All the signs were there, but it wasn't until I experienced them that I realized I should have gone with a competitor like Giant. I will be making a post on this soon, but count me out for recommending these Juiced kids anymore. They make decent bikes, but pass while you still can, OP.

 

[SirJonathan]

I've had a change of heart with Juiced. I've seen too many problems with the customer service and now I am experiencing this lack of service firsthand. All the signs were there, but it wasn't until I experienced them that I realized I should have gone with a competitor like Giant. I will be making a post on this soon, but count me out for recommending these Juiced kids anymore. They make decent bikes, but pass while you still can, OP.

Really sorry to hear that and really anxious to see your post - especially if you have a CCX.

 

[BrianMura]

Juiced still seems to have issues. Here's a new video about the Scrambler with a rusted frame and maybe some battery issues?

OP seems to have bought a different e-bike. I'm happy for the OP. I hope he will tell us he has had a pain-free experience!

Juiced customer service is fast and responsive. However, I feel they were never on the same wavelength...

 

[erider_61]

Thats my inseam measured from the floor.

I can't even find a photo of the Stepthru CCS much less a place to buy it.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I guess I'll say this again, although I'm getting tired of hearing myself say it.

In any endeavor, there is never going to be 100% quality assurance. Even when dispensing opiods, pharmacists are allowed 5% spoilage.

If you sell 100 bikes and have a 5% failure rate, that's 5 people. If you sell 10,000 bikes, the same rate adds up to 500 people. Seems like a lot more problems, and it is as an absolute number, but the rate is still the same. The product hasn't got any worse.

It sucks to be in the 5%. Statistics don't matter when you're the one with the problem. But if people are trying to decide whether or not to buy a Juiced Bike based on "I know 500 people who had problems" and don't consider the 9,500 happy riders with no problems, well, OK.

Also, you have no guarantee that the failure rate is any better at Rad, or Giant, or Pedego, or Riese and Muller.

If you knew for a fact that the failure rate was 5% at one company and 10% at another, now that would be valuable information.

That's on the manufacturing end. On the customer service end, I doubt that any of us would deny that Juiced has had its growing pains. It seems that their production growth consistently outpaces their customer service growth.

Even with that, though, there are people whose expectations exceed what is reasonable, and yet they complain about it anyway. For instance, I saw a guy on the JB Owners Facebook page griping because they wouldn't honor a warranty. The materials clearly state that you must register your bike within 90 days. This is generous. Many companies -- any company, not just ebike companies -- give you 30 days. He contacted them about a bent rear rack that he says was damaged in shipping -- 6 months after he received the bike. They offered to sell him a new one at a 20% discount, which IMO was fair. 6 months later, none of us know that the rack was damaged in transit. I'm not sure I believe him, why should JB? But he's got a whole passel of people on Facebook who think he's got a legitimate complaint and trashing Juiced.

I refrained from posting a "Oh grow up" comment. LOL.

My point is that you can't take all those complaints for legit. Some are, some aren't.

What I'm not saying is that JB is perfect and never messes up. They do. All companies do.

If a company has had a 10% failure rate, whether in manufacture or in customer service response, and decide to achieve 5%, it will take more than double the amount of time and resources to achieve that. And so most will decide it's not worth it. They have enough happy customers, and resolve enough of the problems, and sometimes someone gets screwed. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to learn about how the world works.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

Juiced still seems to have issues. Here's a new video about the Scrambler with a rusted frame and maybe some battery issues?

OP seems to have bought a different e-bike. I'm happy for the OP. I hope he will tell us he has had a pain-free experience!

Juiced customer service is fast and responsive. However, I feel they were never on the same wavelength...

Interesting post! I will stay away from juiced for now. Hope they get their QC problems resolved but I have been following their brand for a long time and it hasn't happened yet so, yes, I am staying away. Far away after reading some of the comments for this particular youtube video.

This is not simply an issue of inconveniencing customers. This is a health and safety threat. A combination of extremely high speeds with spotty quality control and durability is a recipe for disaster.

edit: I just read some of the comments and they are brutal. I urge all other prospective customers to do the same. Buyers are complaining about:

fedex: customers report high rates of damage, perhaps worst in the industry and that they are the option of last resort because of price.

battery and controller problems for the hyperfat as well as scrambler.

juiced customer service gives up and stop responding if they can't solve the problems after a few rounds of troubleshooting

speculation that juiced is refurbishing returned, defective product and attempting to sell as new to compensate for order delays

other customers are saying they received the wrong bike, color or size.

Dexter Roknich:
"Come on what kind of company sends the wrong bike, the god dam box and labeling are MONSTROUS. Did no one even fucking look at the box before it went out with all the others? Get some more staff or something, jesus Juiced your doomed to fail if this is the business trend. Delays, tedious problems, poor build quality for basically all your customers it seems like. Whats your rate of people coming to cust service for one thing or another after purchasing? It should be a tiny number, I can just tell from forums and youtube alone, it isnt. Im pretty sure if I keep the stock fork its going to flex itself to death and snap in half at 30mph. I got the 200$ ebay one, hopefully that will be enough cause fatbike forks are quite expensive I know its hard starting a business in this crazy s*it world, but try harder. Others succeeded and made good products, you can too."




Dexter Roknich1 day ago
FexEx Ground is the worst shipping service on earth. In an email to Juiced once I advised against it sharing my experience with these careless terrible employees and distrib centers in the chicagoland area. I doubt they will listen to little old me though, they gonna go with whoever cheap and not totally fucking the bike up on arrival. Dont take my word for it though, just type in FedEx Ground issues in google haha. Its all the same problems and complaints over and over, a company that could give two fucks about what its shipping or to who.
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Mr. Jones1 day ago
Yeah, I was so surprised at how bad the box came in. They need to print a television on the box like most of the other big e-bikes players to prevent people from treating the package like garbage.


Sean Gorman1 day ago
Yeah, disappointed in the hyper and wish I'd gone with the camp. Far more reliable and cheaper. Juiced is working with you at least. They have had so many problems with the hypers, and their replacement controllers have issues as well. At this point they have given up trying to fix my hyper and wont respond to emails. Cool looking bike and nice specs on paper, good price at least on indiegogo, but wouldn't buy again at the discount, and certainly not at the hyper inflated price they're asking for now.
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Dustin Vannatter1 day ago
Awesome comparison, been having trouble with my HyperFat so good to feel I'm not alone

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Mr. Jones1 day ago
Is the Hyperfat using the 1100 MAC motor as well?


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Dustin Vannatter1 day ago
@Mr. Jones Yep, had nothing but trouble with it. Trying to get Juiced to work with me, just got this bike two weeks ago..


Vasiliy L2 days ago
Thanks for posting this video. Yesterday I chatted with Juiced - Jessica and was told all hyper scramblers were sold out and would be shipped only in 4 weeks and today I received an email stating I could order it now. So they might be getting some bikes retutned and fixing them and want to sell them again as brand new. Don’t know if I should order now or wait.
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[bikerjohn]

...

In any endeavor, there is never going to be 100% quality assurance. ...

If you sell 100 bikes and have a 5% failure rate, that's 5 people. If you sell 10,000 bikes, the same rate adds up to 500 people. Seems like a lot more problems, and it is as an absolute number, but the rate is still the same. The product hasn't got any worse.
It sucks to be in the 5%...

Even with that, though, there are people whose expectations exceed what is reasonable, and yet they complain about it anyway. For instance, I saw a guy on the JB Owners Facebook page griping because they wouldn't honor a warranty. The materials clearly state that you must register your bike within 90 days. This is generous. Many companies -- any company, not just ebike companies -- give you 30 days. He contacted them about a bent rear rack that he says was damaged in shipping -- 6 months after he received the bike. They offered to sell him a new one at a 20% discount, which IMO was fair. 6 months later, none of us know that the rack was damaged in transit. I'm not sure I believe him, why should JB?
...you can't take all those complaints for legit. Some are, some aren't.
-I'm not saying is that JB is perfect and never messes up. They do. All companies do...

YES! And yes, it comes down to percentages.
Overall quality of design and build seems to be high with Juiced Bikes.
It is logical to have a glitch along the way with any product from any manufacturer. Perhaps Juiced should be more proactive correcting an assembly issue with the rear rack, -even extend warranty qualifications for that particular issue.

A rear rack issue which I noticed on my CCX was clearly caused by incorrect assembly at the manufacturing point, -a clear QC issue! It was a bit of a pain to disassemble the rack and rear fender to properly position and reassemble those components. But it was user correctable! https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/service-and-delivery-problems-solved.26114/page-4
Some CCX owners simply removed the fender and rack -being satisfied with that simple modification. Either way, the purchaser of any product requiring the end user to perform some assembly functions, can expect to encounter some sort of issue along the way.

In the instance of my rack issue, it was clearly a manufacturing assembly issue which I expect has already been addressed and corrected at the point of initial assembly.

Perhaps Juiced should have been more proactive addressing the assembly issue with the rear rack, -even extending warranty qualifications for that particular issue. At this point, it would be nice to know with a direct communication from Juiced that this QC issue has been corrected.

I am a satisfied owner of a Juiced Bikes CCX. The bike performs fabulously from my perspective. Yes, I weathered the rack assembly flaw, and I too have concerns about battery weight as it pertains to the intermittent connection issue that some riders have noted. But overall the CCX is the right bike for me!

On the intermittent connection issue, it IS related, obviously, to the weight of the battery! https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ccx-intermittent-power.26159/page-3#post-180994

A little assurance for future buyers, and maybe a credit or discount for a future accessory purchase for customers who encountered manufacturing/assembly issues, could be good for business.

 

[AZOldTech]

Weather is moderating and temperatures are finally warming up a bit. After a 168 miles, every ride reaffirms my delight with the CCX. It's a great bike for commutes!
I was able to get in a decent work commute today!
Ride stats here: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3460364097

Hi John and thanks for your Garmin stats. Since you have a CCX and I see 25.8mph max speed and 17.9mph average speed, may I ask which NDW mode you use and if it's 4 or 5 can you sustain 28+mph on a flat road and what range will you get from the 52V battery? Thanks.

 

[bikerjohn]

Hi John and thanks for your Garmin stats. Since you have a CCX and I see 25.8mph max speed and 17.9mph average speed, may I ask which NDW mode you use and if it's 4 or 5 can you sustain 28+mph on a flat road and what range will you get from the 52V battery? Thanks.

The stats on that commute were generated in ECO power level with an occasional throttle boost on the short climbs. I have the NDW mode set to "5" -no need to change that setting. I don't think a lower NDW would be useful for any experienced rider.

On my last commute: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3463000524
I set the power level to "2" and averaged 21.2 mph with a maximum speed reaching 30.9 mph.

At higher assist levels I could easily average a higher mph. There is a windchill comfort issue at those higher speeds and a bit of an energy waste factor.
Clearly, I can catch and outpace any Lycra clad cyclist on the road ahead. The CCX is quite the equalizer if a 245 pound, 65 y/o wants to show-off.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Hi John and thanks for your Garmin stats. Since you have a CCX and I see 25.8mph max speed and 17.9mph average speed, may I ask which NDW mode you use and if it's 4 or 5 can you sustain 28+mph on a flat road and what range will you get from the 52V battery? Thanks.

FWIW, I commute on my CCS with the 52V battery. My commute is 30 miles each way. Speed typically averages around 23 mph for the entire commute, and I am generally cruising at 28-30 mph, and yes you can maintain 28 mph on flats, the assist level required will depend on your own effort and wind direction and speed. For me that means level 2-3 most of the time. Range again is going to be based on your average speed desired and own effort. I average ~550 Wh of energy from the pack for 30 miles. If I charged to 100% (I routinely only charge to 80%), and rode until empty I'd get ~55-60 miles from my pack (52V / 21Ah). Be aware the performance of the bike does begin to sag as the voltage in the pack drops. At ~46 V this becomes a noticeable problem and hill climbing is quite affected. I very rarely have my pack hit that level.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

The stats on that commute were generated in ECO power level with an occasional throttle boost on the short climbs. I have the NDW mode set to "5" -no need to change that setting. I don't think a lower NDW would be useful for any experienced rider.

On my last commute: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3463000524
I set the power level to "2" and averaged 21.2 mph with a maximum speed reaching 30.9 mph.

At higher assist levels I could easily average a higher mph. There is a windchill comfort issue at those higher speeds and a bit of an energy waste factor.
Clearly, I can catch and outpace any Lycra clad cyclist on the road ahead. The CCX is quite the equalizer if a 245 pound, 65 y/o wants to show-off.

Not the pros. The top average speed in a TdF time trial is 34.5 mph. In a team time trial, 35.85 mph.

The top average speed in a TdF overall was 25.9 mph. This is over the course of over 2,000 miles in 3 weeks. A 52 volt battery would run out of juice after just 20-30 miles at those speeds. Rumor has it that the winning rider was "juiced" himself however.

As a non motorized cyclist riding 100-150 miles weekly in the past couple of years (weather allowing), I can easily average 16-18 mph on flat terrain with modest effort. If I push it, I can get up to 22-24 mph on flat terrain, but only for a mile or two at a time. An all out sprint on flats I can get to about 26 mph+. This is on a flat bar city bike btw, not a more aero road bike with drop bars.

The areas where I can't compete well with e-bikes are on hills, where moderate effort on moderate grades (7% or so), I climb at 7-9 mph. Or when I'm loaded up with rack, panniers and three bags of groceries. Sometimes four.

Keep in mind my fitness level is middling at best. Take cat 5 crit racers by way of contrast. (Cat 5 is the lowest level, cat 1 highest). Cat 5 racers typically average around 25 mph.

Don't under-estimate standard bicycle riders. You can ride at a very fast pace over a long period of time, if you train (genetics can help as well).

 

[bikerjohn]

Not the pros. The top average speed in a TdF time trial is 34.5 mph. In a team time trial, 35.85 mph.

The top average speed in a TdF overall was 25.9 mph. This is over the course of over 2,000 miles in 3 weeks. A 52 volt battery would run out of juice after just 20-30 miles at those speeds. Rumor has it that the winning rider was "juiced" himself however.

As a non motorized cyclist riding 100-150 miles weekly in the past couple of years (weather allowing), I can easily average 16-18 mph on flat terrain with modest effort. If I push it, I can get up to 22-24 mph on flat terrain, but only for a mile or two at a time. An all out sprint on flats I can get to about 26 mph+. This is on a flat bar city bike btw, not a more aero road bike with drop bars.

The areas where I can't compete well with e-bikes are on hills, where moderate effort on moderate grades (7% or so), I climb at 7-9 mph. Or when I'm loaded up with rack, panniers and three bags of groceries. Sometimes four.

Keep in mind my fitness level is middling at best. Take cat 5 crit racers by way of contrast. (Cat 5 is the lowest level, cat 1 highest). Cat 5 racers typically average around 25 mph.

Don't under-estimate standard bicycle riders. You can ride at a very fast pace over a long period of time, if you train (genetics can help as well).

Perhaps I am underestimating you as the rider on the road ahead of me. However, I doubt you are destined for a spot in the TdF. If You're writing about typical racing cyclists, clearly you understand the concept of teamwork and drafting to reach a maximum average speed. I too have pedaled a non-ebike averaging speeds in excess of 18 mph, -it's no big feat either way. But if I see you up ahead, and I am on my CCX, I won't hesitate to say "Howdy!" as I pass you by.

What I would summarize here is that on any typical bike ride an average cyclist will be faster on an ebike than on the non-ebike.

 

[jom]

I guess I'll say this again, although I'm getting tired of hearing myself say it.

In any endeavor, there is never going to be 100% quality assurance. Even when dispensing opiods, pharmacists are allowed 5% spoilage.

If you sell 100 bikes and have a 5% failure rate, that's 5 people. If you sell 10,000 bikes, the same rate adds up to 500 people. Seems like a lot more problems, and it is as an absolute number, but the rate is still the same. The product hasn't got any worse.

It sucks to be in the 5%. Statistics don't matter when you're the one with the problem. But if people are trying to decide whether or not to buy a Juiced Bike based on "I know 500 people who had problems" and don't consider the 9,500 happy riders with no problems, well, OK.

Also, you have no guarantee that the failure rate is any better at Rad, or Giant, or Pedego, or Riese and Muller.

If you knew for a fact that the failure rate was 5% at one company and 10% at another, now that would be valuable information.

That's on the manufacturing end. On the customer service end, I doubt that any of us would deny that Juiced has had its growing pains. It seems that their production growth consistently outpaces their customer service growth.

Even with that, though, there are people whose expectations exceed what is reasonable, and yet they complain about it anyway. For instance, I saw a guy on the JB Owners Facebook page griping because they wouldn't honor a warranty. The materials clearly state that you must register your bike within 90 days. This is generous. Many companies -- any company, not just ebike companies -- give you 30 days. He contacted them about a bent rear rack that he says was damaged in shipping -- 6 months after he received the bike. They offered to sell him a new one at a 20% discount, which IMO was fair. 6 months later, none of us know that the rack was damaged in transit. I'm not sure I believe him, why should JB? But he's got a whole passel of people on Facebook who think he's got a legitimate complaint and trashing Juiced.

I refrained from posting a "Oh grow up" comment. LOL.

My point is that you can't take all those complaints for legit. Some are, some aren't.

What I'm not saying is that JB is perfect and never messes up. They do. All companies do.

If a company has had a 10% failure rate, whether in manufacture or in customer service response, and decide to achieve 5%, it will take more than double the amount of time and resources to achieve that. And so most will decide it's not worth it. They have enough happy customers, and resolve enough of the problems, and sometimes someone gets screwed. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to learn about how the world works.

@Bruce Arnold , totally agree. I could not have said it with better words!
May I add that, when buying online you have better (more critical) reviews thanks to websites like this one.
When you buy from a dealer is more difficult to know what are the failures of the bike because people complain in person rather than on internet places.

 

[youth]

The materials clearly state that you must register your bike within 90 days.

I don't recall seeing this so I'm not sure my CCX is registered. I don't see much of a point though since they sell direct so they have all original owner info already. I know I got close to $1000 in replacement parts with my 2016 CC within the 1st year. Hopefully won't have the same issues with the CCX.

 

[BrianMura]

I have mixed feelings about this company after having a flaky battery and incorrectly flashed firmware. They have sent parts to the wrong address too. A while ago, they only sent me the top part of the battery assembly I ordered...??? I don't feel like anybody I've e-mailed or talked to has a clue about the battery...do employees even own a Juiced Bike? Nevertheless, Juiced Bikes have always responded quickly and and sent out parts. It's just seems there is no QC/checklists/double checking process at this company. People are randomly throwing stuff into boxes and sending them out? Addresses in customer databases are not unified? Parts seem refurbished/dirty with spec labels slapped over each other? Why can't more Juiced techs be on this forum to provide assurance? There are a lot of things that could be methodically improved. The company just doesn't seem to be well run/organized at all. Juiced Bikes had some video with a bunch of dinosaurs riding on bikes. That is what I imagine. A bunch of headless dinosaurs fumbling with parts with short T-rex arms in some warehouse...

On a positive note, I really do love my CCX, and I am probably going to end up buying CCX 2.0 when I burn this bike out like youth did with his CC.

 

[Asher]

Damn, issues like this really makes me think Tora needs to hire another executive to really refine the QC and supply chain issues, and free Tora to focus on the electronic drivetrain stuff. Tora strikes me as a guy who loves working on new tech, but whose heart isn't in making sure the existing tech has near flawless reliability. Which is fine, it just means you need to hire someone else to make that their one focus.

Separately, I think Juiced needs to put more focus on its vehicle design. A little would go a long way to making Juiced more competitive design-wise with other bikes that have less power but have more polished design. Alloy fenders, cleaning up the wiring, not putting wide-ass mountain bike bars on an urban bike, a lighter rigid fork, maybe a vintage moto style headlight. Tubeless-ready, with bigger cushier tires (which look cooler), wider rims because the current rims are too narrow for even 45mm tires, it makes the tires bulbous.

It's a truism in the startup world that the best person to start a company is usually not the best person to run an established company...

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Damn issues like this really makes me think Tora needs to hire another executive to really refine the QC and supply chain issues, and free Tora to focus on the electronic drivetrain stuff. Tora strikes me as a guy who loves working on new tech, but whose heart isn't in making sure the existing tech has near flawless reliability. Which is fine, it just means you need to hire someone else to make that their one focus.

Separately, I think Juiced needs to put more focus on its vehicle design. A little would go a long way to making Juiced more competitive design-wise with other bikes that have less power but have more polished design. Alloy fenders, cleaning up the wiring, not putting wide-ass mountain bike bars on an urban bike, a lighter rigid fork. Tubeless-ready, with bigger cushier tires (which look cooler), wider rims because the current rims are too narrow for even 45mm tires, it makes the tires bulbous.

It's a truism in the startup world that the best person to start a company is usually not the best person to run an established company...

You could be the Chief Quality Officer for Juiced. I'd back ya, hands down. Didn't you move to the west coast? You're already in position.

 

[Asher]

You could be the Chief Quality Officer for Juiced. I'd back ya, hands down. Didn't you move to the west coast? You're already in position.

Ha no, I moved the opposite direction, east coast now. I did get to meet Tora and Aindrais in SF a couple months back, I gave them a hearty congrats on all their work, Tora is a very modest guy in person.

 

[Samdawg]

Hi Guys - I'm by no means a bike tech, I can turn a wrench, but I was a carpenter boys - I do have access to a good LBS - I plan on riding from10 - to 30 miles a day at least 5 days a week on back roads both paved and dirt and a few trail type shortcuts - at 64 years old I cant beat it to bad lol. Is the Juice RipCurrent Standard with 52 volt (not S) the bike for me? I was initially looking at the Radrover but the RC looks like so much more bike?