[Tip] Yamaha PW - How to check the number of cycles & absolute battery capacity

[Ghostman_132]

21020 kilometers, absolute battery capacity still between 75 and 100%.

The cycles are no longer "countable" because I have more than 700 cycles.

Have you remembered to calibrate the battery often? It can be calibrated only when charging from fully depleted to 100% in one charge. One calibration charge will only correct 1/4 part of the real capacity value. So if you have capacity value of 500wh and you make one calibration charge which read out to be 400wh, it will change the capacity value only by 25wh -> new capacity value will be 475wh. That is why only one calibration charge is not enough to correct real value.

At least this is what I have understood on how it works...

 

[Bicyclista]

Have you remembered to calibrate the battery often? It can be calibrated only when charging from fully depleted to 100% in one charge. One calibration charge will only correct 1/4 part of the real capacity value. So if you have capacity value of 500wh and you make one calibration charge which read out to be 400wh, it will change the capacity value only by 25wh -> new capacity value will be 475wh. That is why only one calibration charge is not enough to correct real value.

At least this is what I have understood on how it works...

Thank you for the information, but as has been pointed out previously the readout provided by Yamaha is too coarse. It's provided only in blocks of 25%, and there is no readout in watt-hours.

Also, please clarify. Are you advocating fully depleting a battery to 0% in order to calibrate, and to do it several times in order to calibrate completely? My understanding is that discharging a battery to 0% is something to be avoided. From batteryuniversity.com: "Li-ion batteries contain a protection circuit that shields the battery against abuse. This important safeguard also turns the battery off and makes it unusable if over-discharged."

 

[Brooks]

Huh?^^ Calibration charge? Deplete the battery? Post link to this info please.
Sounds like old info for lead acid battery.

 

[33red]

I am no chemist, i pedal recharge to 100% the lowest i went is 2% left. With 3,600kms all works great. I ride daily.

 

[JayVee]

There's no doubt in my mind that 80/20 works better because I have two batteries. The one I report in this thread is the "knock around" battery which I charge to 100% quite frequently and sometimes even leave charged like that for a couple of hours. This is definitely not a best practice and should be avoided if possible. The 80/20 gets around 10-15% more range than the knock around. This is why I'm interested in the new 745Wh clone battery that Ravi posted about. 80/20 would be much easier to implement for me on a daily basis with 745Wh and a 7 Amp charger....

I almost never go under 20% on either battery. I balance the cells on the 80/20 battery from time to time by charging to 100%, but I ride the bike immediately after it's fully charged. You want to leave the cells at 100% as little time as possible. In the long run, it makes a difference.

 

[Ghostman_132]

yes, you guys are correct. It is best to stick between 20-80% for longetivity. But it is not possible to do calibration or balancing with those levels. Li-ion batteries voltage levels are quite static on those levels of charge -> impossible to know what the real charge level is if you only look at the voltage level. Only way to give that information is to calculate watt hours. This is the same with all electronics which have BMS.

Yamahas absolute capacity may be intened to be that coarce just to avoid "unneccessary" warranty claims. They could have made it to work with 4 LEDs like they made the charge cycle counter but chose not to.

 

[DTFkuhneye]

I've done nearly 20100 miles (32350 km) on a 400Wh battery in a little over 2 years. Weekends mostly.

Bought the ebike ex demo with less than 300 miles on the LCD readout.

I've got between 501 and 600 charge cycles on battery.

And it says I've got above 75% capacity.

I routinely run my battery down to 10% or less which is effectively 0% as when I hit 10 miles estimate left according to LCD monitor, on ECO, it runs our super fast. This tells me approximately 12.5% of all cells in battery are dead.

I use my ebike to do food deliveries in a moderately hilly area with lots of pot holes, speed bumps and some light off road short cuts too. So plenty of stop starting & my 85kgs + clothes + backpack + delivery items. In all weathers and seasons. Plenty of wind and rain.

I mostly use ECO (50%) and STD (30%) and ECO+ (20%) when using motor. I'd estimate I do 30 to 60 % if my riding off motor depending on variables like wind, up hills, weight and mind set.

I average around 50 miles per full charge per shift. I've pushed hard a few times and managed nearly 70 miles using mostly ECO+ but that was really difficult and tiring. Sometimes I can barely get 35 miles total if it's very windy or I hit loads of steep uphills.

I just plug it in at night when I get home and go to sleep. Unplug the charger in the morning/afternoon at some point. If I leave it fully charged for a few days my LCD tells me it's 96% so I pop in the charger and go shower etc. and it's 100% by the time I go work.

Only thing I've ever done to look after the battery is buy a neoprene battery cover to protect it from bumps and accident's and from the cold. I've dropped the battery once when I didn't slot it in fully and it fell out. I've a crack now on one corner of the handle. I've had the bicycle knocked and blown over quite a few times. A few mild crashes too.

 

[Bicyclista]

I've done nearly 20100 miles (32350 km) on a 400Wh battery over 2 years. Weekends mostly.

I've got between 501 and 600 charge cycles on battery.

And it says I've got above 75% capacity.

I routinely run my battery down to 10% or less which is effectively 0% as when I hit 10 miles estimate left according to LCD monitor, on ECO, it runs our super fast. This tells me approximately 12.5% of all cells in battery are dead.

I use my ebike to do food deliveries in a moderately hilly area with lots of pot holes, speed bumps and some light off road short cuts too. So plenty of stop starting & my 85kgs + clothes + backpack + delivery items. In all weathers and seasons. Plenty of wind and rain.

I mostly use ECO (50%) and STD (30%) and ECO+ (20%) when using motor. I'd estimate I do 30 to 60 % if my riding off motor depending on variables like wind, up hills, weight and mind set.

I average around 50 miles per full charge per shift. I've pushed hard a few times and managed nearly 70 miles using mostly ECO+ but that was really difficult and tiring. Sometimes I can barely get 35 miles total if it's very windy or I hit loads of steep uphills.

Congratulations, that is an impressive amount of riding, specially doing it mainly on weekends! And it's great to know that the battery is holding up very well after so many cycles.

But, how do you do it? If you mostly ride on weekends, do you ride before daybreak for your first shift, charge the battery for 3 or 4 hours, then ride into the night for your second shift?

By my calculations, you ride about 200 miles per weekend or 100 miles on Saturday and 100 miles on Sunday. Since you average 50 miles per full charge per shift, that means two shifts per day and charging the battery between shifts. Or do you use two batteries?

Riding 50 miles would take 3 hours or more, depending on the number of delivery stops, while full charging would take 4 hours (or slightly less). So, two shifts and a full charge take ten hours on Saturday and ten hours on Sunday! Exhausting!

Please let me know if my numbers are wrong. By any measure, you are doing something amazing!

 

[DTFkuhneye]

Congratulations, that is an impressive amount of riding, specially doing it mainly on weekends! And it's great to know that the battery is holding up very well after so many cycles.

But, how do you do it? If you mostly ride on weekends, do you ride before daybreak for your first shift, charge the battery for 3 or 4 hours, then ride into the night for your second shift?

By my calculations, you ride about 200 miles per weekend or 100 miles on Saturday and 100 miles on Sunday. Since you average 50 miles per full charge per shift, that means two shifts per day and charging the battery between shifts. Or do you use two batteries?

Riding 50 miles would take 3 hours or more, depending on the number of delivery stops, while full charging would take 4 hours (or slightly less). So, two shifts and a full charge take ten hours on Saturday and ten hours on Sunday! Exhausting!

Please let me know if my numbers are wrong. By any measure, you are doing something amazing!

My weekend definition: Thursday to Sunday.

My shift (self employed so flexible hours ie. I can start and finish when I want) starts between 4 and 5 pm mostly and I finish between 9 pm and 1 am. Depending on many variables. When my battery and legs are done I log off and go home.

The thing with food deliveries is sometimes there's loads of waiting for the food for various reasons it can be over half an hour wait sometimes. In rare extreme ones I've had over an hour two or 3 times.

+- 50 miles takes 5 hours minimum and maximum over 10 hours. There's dealing with restaurants and customers and problems & waiting to be assigned jobs etc.

 

[Ghostman_132]

I'm just curoius DTFkuhneye. Have you serviced the engine any time? Any bearing changes or regreasing?

 

[DTFkuhneye]

I'm just curoius DTFkuhneye. Have you serviced the engine any time? Any bearing changes or regreasing?

No.

I didn't know you could service the engine. From what I was told when I bought it Yamaha motors can't be serviced but they're long lasting and reliable. You ride them until they die.

I do clean my drive train before most shifts. As in I clean chain, rear sprocket and chainring then re oil. Obviously replace parts as needed and general maintenance.

Has anyone else serviced Yamaha PW motor on here? Changed bearings etc? Let me know.

 

[Ghostman_132]

I'm at 10tkm by this month and planning on servicing the engine. I have new bearings, sealant and grease waiting for installation. I have noticed that there is a bit of play when rocking the chainrings. I hope that the bearing change will help that.

 

[DTFkuhneye]

I'm at 10tkm by this month and planning on servicing the engine. I have new bearings, sealant and grease waiting for installation. I have noticed that there is a bit of play when rocking the chainrings. I hope that the bearing change will help that.

1st: have you checked and tightened the actual chainring? I've had this happen before I found out the correct extra tool to use to tighten the chainring properly (see attachment example to use with correct size Allen key).

2nd: how are you servicing bearings? Yourself or mechanic? Where did you get parts? Any other relevant information?

 

[Ghostman_132]

1st: have you checked and tightened the actual chainring? I've had this happen before I found out the correct extra tool to use to tighten the chainring properly (see attachment example to use with correct size Allen key).

2nd: how are you servicing bearings? Yourself or mechanic? Where did you get parts? Any other relevant information?

1st: If I recall correctly I do not have such nuts on the chainring. But Good info. I need to check more closely later.

2nd: I ordered a set of bearings from www.performancelinebearings.com, Hozan JIS screw set form Amazon and some Molykote EM-30L grease from local dealer. I will do the service by my self.

 

[DTFkuhneye]

1st: If I recall correctly I do not have such nuts on the chainring. But Good info. I need to check more closely later.

2nd: I ordered a set of bearings from www.performancelinebearings.com, Hozan JIS screw set form Amazon and some Molykote EM-30L grease from local dealer. I will do the service by my self.

That tool I attached goes behind the chainring to hold the part that you tighten with an Allen key. As far as I'm aware it is standard way of doing it. Google for videos on it.

Would you be willing to film yourself doing the bearing change and grease + open and closing of motor & post on here?

 

[Ghostman_132]

That tool I attached goes behind the chainring to hold the part that you tighten with an Allen key. As far as I'm aware it is standard way of doing it. Google for videos on it.

Would you be willing to film yourself doing the bearing change and grease + open and closing of motor & post on here?

Need to check that chainring installation.

About the bearing change, there is already a good how-to video which I'm planning to follow on: https://www.performancelinebearings.com/how-to/

 

[DTFkuhneye]

Need to check that chainring installation.

About the bearing change, there is already a good how-to video which I'm planning to follow on: https://www.performancelinebearings.com/how-to/

Chainring update?

Have you done the bearings change yet? If so any better?

I'm currently considering taking my bike into performance line bearings to have motor bearings serviced.

 

[FlatSix911]

There's no doubt in my mind that 80/20 works better because I have two batteries. The one I report in this thread is the "knock around" battery which I charge to 100% quite frequently and sometimes even leave charged like that for a couple of hours. This is definitely not a best practice and should be avoided if possible. The 80/20 gets around 10-15% more range than the knock around. This is why I'm interested in the new 745Wh clone battery that Ravi posted about. 80/20 would be much easier to implement for me on a daily basis with 745Wh and a 7 Amp charger....

I almost never go under 20% on either battery. I balance the cells on the 80/20 battery from time to time by charging to 100%, but I ride the bike immediately after it's fully charged. You want to leave the cells at 100% as little time as possible. In the long run, it makes a difference.

Good info... thanks for sharing.

 

[Jyrki]

2018 Model, 400Wh
5100km
100-200 cycles
Capacity 75-100%

 

[Ghostman_132]

Chainring update?

Have you done the bearings change yet? If so any better?

I'm currently considering taking my bike into performance line bearings to have motor bearings serviced.

Long time since last update. I did check the chainring. You were correct. It had the nuts that required the special tool. However they weren't any loose.

I changed the bearings also. Everything else did go easy, but the new largest bearing which supports the right side pedal was stiff. It seems so that the bearing groove had some sharp edges and it did not slide in to its socket. A bit of sandpaper and for the bearing o-ring groove and the socket sorted it out eventually. I did however use quite much force and heat during installation attemps and might have damaged the bearing a bit. At least it still runs like a new, but it might have shorter lifespan and may need to be changed in some time in near future. But it won't be that hard of a task.

There were two bearings that had a bit play and needed to be replaced (PLY00422 and PLY00420). Other bearings were still fine. There was no water ingestation or rust inside the case or beyond the bearings, but the largest bearings were a bit rough when rotating freely and clearly got some water inside. After bearing change the chainring did not have any play in it. So the bearing change was in order.