throttle override on easy motion bikes?

[vincent]

am i misunderstanding this on the throttle stuff?

you have pedal assist and you can use the throttle in each level but only to an extent?

or you have to turn down pas to zero and then you can use the throttle however you want?

i am so disappointed, was pretty much set on the easy motion full suspension mtn bike and a step through but i dont like that at all

even my cheap cemoto bike has pas with throttle override, seems like a useful feature

and seems like a huge hassle to toggle down through the pas levels to get to throttle, i dont understand the concept of that

think throttle override is something that might be added in 2017???

 

[J.R.]

you have to turn down pas to zero and then you can use the throttle however you want

That statement is correct. It might take a second or two to do and as the display is very close to the left grip, the buttons are as easy to reach as any bicycle gear shift.

think throttle override is something that might be added in 2017

BH Easy Motion bikes are European, where the vast majority of their bikes are sold and throttles aren't allowed. I don't see more and better throttles being offered in the US, especially with the ebike class structure being used to draft new ebike law in the US. Many makes have removed traditional throttles and opted for a button or launch throttle to get the rider up to 12 mph or so. Still others have removed throttles altogether. Your Cemoto is designed spec'd and built in China and is a direct import from China where just about all ebikes have throttle and many riders there never pedal. Throttles will always be available from direct imports from China, unless they're banned in the US. I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

 

[pxpaulx]

I think they are doing away with the throttle on many models, my 2015 evo snow doesn't have one.

 

[George S.]

There's a boost button on the Stromer. You can press it and it will move the bike to 12 mph. It's not a pedal assist. I believe, actually, that it is a throttle. But since a luxury European brand is doing this, maybe they can get away with it. But it's not a Class 3, and why does anyone care, at this point? The Pedego Ridge Runner had a throttle, and was supposed to be limited to 20 mph, a Class 2. But a YouTube member told me he test rode one and it went way into the 20's, with the throttle. Haibikes are not locked down, they can be chipped, and that's not supposed to happen. I think the 'boost' thing is showing up on other Accell Class 3's, but I don't much care anymore.

So I guess it's just Stromer, Pedego, and Haibike that are abandoning the new California regs? They opened up the bike paths in California, and made ebikes more like bikes and now people are pretty much just doing what they want.

When you look at the issue Court raised with the Yamaha motor, one thing is certain. If the sDuro had a throttle, he could just punch the throttle and move on. I don't know why we put up with this. How can you say Stromer, Haibike/Accell, and Pedego are really respecting the new laws? You are really going to tell me I can't have a throttle? How about a 'boost grip'?

You have big companies with execs who bring home huge compensation packages. They game the regs and jockey for position. And then you have experimenters and tinkerers and people who really love ebikes who build bikes and try to push the envelope, or make something they like. Who are the good guys?

 

[grench]

There's a boost button on the Stromer. You can press it and it will move the bike to 12 mph. It's not a pedal assist. I believe, actually, that it is a throttle. But since a luxury European brand is doing this, maybe they can get away with it. But it's not a Class 3, and why does anyone care, at this point? The Pedego Ridge Runner had a throttle, and was supposed to be limited to 20 mph, a Class 2. But a YouTube member told me he test rode one and it went way into the 20's, with the throttle. Haibikes are not locked down, they can be chipped, and that's not supposed to happen. I think the 'boost' thing is showing up on other Accell Class 3's, but I don't much care anymore.

So I guess it's just Stromer, Pedego, and Haibike that are abandoning the new California regs? They opened up the bike paths in California, and made ebikes more like bikes and now people are pretty much just doing what they want.

When you look at the issue Court raised with the Yamaha motor, one thing is certain. If the sDuro had a throttle, he could just punch the throttle and move on. I don't know why we put up with this. How can you say Stromer, Haibike/Accell, and Pedego are really respecting the new laws? You are really going to tell me I can't have a throttle? How about a 'boost grip'?

You have big companies with execs who bring home huge compensation packages. They game the regs and jockey for position. And then you have experimenters and tinkerers and people who really love ebikes who build bikes and try to push the envelope, or make something they like. Who are the good guys?

@George S. a couple of thoughts:

The Stromer ST1 comes with a boost option which comes limited to meet regs ( I agree the button on the display is subtrafuge throttle). If you change the code stetting you can increase the speed to 23-25mph with 'boost'. In my opinion this is how it should be. Think about it as 'Open Source'. This meets the intent of the law. Bikes come limited. It also meets the desire of some riders who want some flexibility...the rider is assuming the Risk. Personal accountability - a good thing.

You can't legislate common sense and morality. Those who try end up restricting only the law abiding.

You are satisfied under 20mph. Many of the rest of us want to go faster. If we do it Ina an irresponsible manner - we should be held accountable. You car will exceed the speed limit correct? I still remember when the speed limit in Montana hwys was 'Safe and Prudent'. If you drove like an idiot you got a ticket.

As for the exces gaming the regs...their job it to meet the letter of the law (not the intent - intent implies morality and integrity) and provide a competitive advantage over the competition. They strive to be the producer of choice. This is where the customer brings intent into the equation.

 

[J.R.]

Wow this thread took a turn from the intent of the OP. I don't have an issue with any of it, throttle is in my opinion a manual PAS system. I look at it that way from experience; my first ebike was a ProdecoTech with throttle and for whatever the reason I could not ride it without pedaling. I get on a bicycle and I have to pedal, it's weird, I can't ride it like a scooter.

I know just as many people that have home brewed bikes as people with factory bikes and the DIY's I've seen in the wild all have throttle and most are very nicely built. They seem safe, not overly powered and the owners have spent some real money on them, as much or more as I paid for my Evo 29'er. I know one guy that has a 1000 watt front hub bike that looks like a disaster, but I've known him more than a year and he keeps on truckin', thousands of miles a year. Then you go on the internet and it seems like no amount of watts and speed is ever enough. Note: Seems! Taking my real world experience into account and knowing DIY'ers that doesn't seem to be the norm. I can say this, when most of the DIY'ers see my BH and hear what I paid for it they all want one (thanks @Crazy Lenny Ebikes). At least one has called Len wanting a factory bike.

Now that I've owned a bike with torque sensing PAS for 8 months, I want nothing less. I've ridden very nice DIY built and factory built cadence sensing and for me they just don't compare. I'd rather have a throttle to better match my human torque and cadence, but that's more work than torque sensing PAS. I have a 20 mph throttle only mode on the BH, I'm glad I have it just in case, but really never use it.

 

[grench]

Wow this thread took a turn from the intent of the OP.

Absolutely correct...
@vincent sorry for participating in the hijack!

 

[George S.]

It's kind of tough to tell someone what to buy, if they say they want a throttle. It's not technically legal on a bike that goes 20+ mph, in California. (Read Court's reviews of different Class 2 and Class 3 bikes). So you have boost buttons on Class 3 bikes and you have chipped or otherwise enhanced Class 2 bikes that go well above 20 mph, and sometimes have throttles. If the new buyer faces a complicated ebike world, isn't that just the reality? When do we just say the California regs are dead, picked apart?

Why offer up the Santa Claus and Easter Bunny explanation? That isn't how it works. If someone says you can't have this or that, and you can with the bent rules, which is the 'best' information. That's what we offer, information.

Lenny is great and if the OP, or anyone on this site, can get a deal, that's nice. But Lenny can't put discount price lists online. He can do a small number of sales away from from what the company wants, but it's not a national trend. It kills the local dealers. If you fall into the privileged group, with information about Lenny, you can live in a different world of pricing. I'll believe in Lenny prices when they are readily available from multiple stores that serve the entire country. How many bikes are actually sold at Lenny Prices? He's a statistical aberration.

I just think people who really understand motors and, in particular, batteries, know that buying parts is far superior to 'factory' type bikes. I have the best motors around, and the best batteries around, unless you are talking custom motors with very high value. This is all dollar for dollar. I don't 'compete' with Stromer.

In the end, new people will benefit from lower prices. DIY drives that. People know they can buy a big battery and a solid motor, pick up a decent frame, and it's maybe $1200 and up. Eventually 'factory' pricing has to compete with that. If a new buy wants a 'price', look around. There are a lot of options.

 

[vincent]

no problem on hijacking the thread, this is all very interesting

guess i should mention that for me the throttle just allows me to cross streets quicker, move away from a car faster or thought it would be useful for climbing steep hills and stuff like that if mountain biking with my serious rider friend

when i talk about throttle it just seems an option that could be needed in some circumstances, actually have not used mine much but on occasion and i always peddle my bikes also, rare not to peddle
and of course my prodeco is only throttle

court talks about throttle often in reference to its usability to climb steep hills etc, this is where it makes the most sense for me

my bike has never been over 15mph in any mode and think maybe it has hit 15mph 4 times lol, it may go faster than that but havent tried
am not looking to go fast with the throttle just the boost when i need it
know the cemoto has a crappy pas but i do not use pas when manuevering through gates, small or sharp places - i use the throttle


the button thing on the stromer sounds like it might work for what i need

reading all the full suspension bike reviews last night, not many have throttle override - the flux sounds like it might work for me and has it

my cemeto has really done everything i want, but once or twice a year would like to ride with a friend who seriously mountain bikes and have my doubts this motor/battery will move my weight well in a situation like that

and i wonder if higher end bikes are more agile

so my plan is to ride my next bike before buying one, pretty sure the 18 inch frame on the cemoto is too big for me
would like to ride some different frame sizes /different bikes etc

maybe if the flux comes out in july i will take a trip to san diego and check out several brands etc over there

but back to the thread topic i am disappointed so few of the mountain bikes in the reviews dont have throttle override, it really limits my options if i want that

 

[vincent]

something else to expand on my post above

i like thinking that if i have a wreck, hurt an ankle etc that the bike will be able to get me home without peddling if needed

it is funny how so many things i think about with the bikes are interpreted totally different by people who ride seriously etc

when i mentioned being older and getting back into riding and that the prodeco was better to start on because it is smaller, more agile and throttle only a few people dismissed throttle for various reasons

my point in that was when you havent ridden in decades that starting out with a throttle only bike - or one pas could be turned off??- makes it easier to balance at first because you do not have to peddle also

you can get the feel of balancing/ steering etc without adding peddling in the mix, big deal to me lol- this may not matter so much on regular bikes that are lighter i dont know, but on these 50-55lb bikes it mattered to me
most of you guys would never even think about that

i think throttle and think small, tight turns and climbing hills
getting away from cars and passing major intersections safer

you guys think speed

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@vincent asked a question and @J.R. answered it to the point and pointed out how the system works but it really bothers me that any thread can be turned into sort of robin hood-DIY saga with BH/Accell being the traitors of common E-bikers.

@George S.
With all due respect, you really have no idea about Lenny's store and the numbers. Have you spoken to the man?
You are just reading up here and there and have come to a conclusion of your own.
Do you know how many local customers he has and how big of a ebike community he has created in Wisconsin ?
Yes, I will be with him this summer but I cringe when someone just says this is a discount store. Part of our work this summer is to clean up this misconception and do something really fantastic.

It takes a lot of effort to sell in volumes and maintain the store/employees and the inventory.

You may have the best motors and best batteries but most people want at least 2 yrs warranty on the system they purchase, not a 90 day warranty.
They want to somebody to talk when they call.

I don't go on different forums and talk rubbish about BBSHD motors. If BH/Accell prices their products differently from Bafang, so be it. Market will change it.

How can we guide newcomers of this forum without sounding like sour grapes?

It's the number of hours on the saddle that makes someone a truly knowledgeable about the intricacies of E-bikes, not the number of hours on the forum. Without riding a particular type of bike, we can't really hold an educated opinion about it.

Coming back,

@vincent , E-bike companies want people to get healthier. Throttle is not something that is looked as a favorable option because not everyone exercises
certain level of discernment and people may just become lazy over time. Companies certainly don't want their products to get labelled as "scooters".

So, BH, intentionally dialed down the power/torque level when using throttle. Under PAS, their 350w/500w motors are very zippy.
Throttle does it's bare minimum job. That's it. It won't climb steep hills. It is YOU who will do the major work and climb. Currently, it is the only company in the U.S that offers 5 yr warranty on their motors & controllers. Next is BionX with 3 yr warranty. You certainly can't expect that with Cemoto.

There are bikes by BH, OHM and few others that offer you < 50lb weight, throttle option upto 20mph and very capable PAS system. Most mid-drives don't use throttle unless you go BBS route.

You should try a wide range of bikes and a good system will definitely make you get out on the bike more often.

 

[George S.]

@George S.
With all due respect, you really have no idea about Lenny's store and the numbers. Have you spoken to the man?
You are just reading up here and there and have come to a conclusion of your own.
Do you know how many local customers he has and how big of a ebike community he has created in Wisconsin ?
Yes, I will be with him this summer but I cringe when someone just says this is a discount store. Part of our work this summer is to clean up this misconception and do something really fantastic.

It takes a lot of effort to sell in volumes and maintain the store/employees and the inventory.

You may have the best motors and best batteries but most people want at least 2 yrs warranty on the system they purchase, not a 90 day warranty.
They want to somebody to talk when they call.

That's exactly what Lenny has said on this forum. He is a local store and he sells a few bikes at discount outside his local territory. Yikes. That's what I said. It isn't fair to use Lenny's mail order prices, since they aren't real prices. I know why my local dealer is doing what he is doing, but Wisconsin is a little out of range. I didn't say anything against Lenny.

Let's just have a fair fight between DIY and huge corporations with massive political influence. When they wrote the revised rules, they left DIY out. No voice, in the process. It was about what Pizzi and DiConstanzo wanted. That's not fair. What the big ebike companies want they get by regulating, it seems like. Why do they hate throttles? What wattage is reasonable? Why require PAS systems on some bikes? You never respond to any of this. You bully, essentially. Never respond, always attack.

DIY has a few motors, and they are great motors. People can service them, generally. DIY has the best cells in the battery world. They understand what riders need for high speed bikes or long range bikes. Everything is out in the open. What cells are in your bike? That's more or less 'it', solid motors and great batteries. People contact me and ask how to build a bike. I help them.

A fair fight. Let's have a fair fight. I'm for that. When Pizzi said you can have a 28 mph bike but it has to have PAS and it can't have more that 750 watts, that was not setting 'good' rules, that was setting Accell rules. I don't ride fast, and there were other ways to make faster cycles, but here we are. It was not an open process. It's not favorable to DIY.

People should buy the best motors and they should buy good batteries that will serve their needs. They should build safe bikes, if they are going to push performance. I don't have to like Haibikes or Stromers. I want a good motor and a good battery, and that is 90% of an ebike to me. I don't care how it looks. I don't need a PAS. I don't need to sample all the products. I rode 3,000 miles last year, give or take.

You basically are saying I have to view ebikes the way you view ebikes. I keep explaining my position and I feel I win the arguments. DIY is value. You get the bike you need. You have better options for batteries. That's my line. I like performance numbers, like amp hours and climb numbers that are proven. You are in an industry with very few useful numbers, just garbage like '800 miles range'.

My rides (but not all) last 12 months or so.

 

[J.R.]

Lets face it, we on this forum have much more in common than we have differences. George I have a great deal of respect for you, but for most of us an ebike is more than a motor, a battery and a simple bike from an online discounter. Pete over on the other EBR has written that conservative estimates have 200,000 units sold in the US for 2015. That does not include DIY. I don't think there were 200,000 DIY's that hit the streets in 2015. I don't see DIY 'driving' discounted prices, in my estimation if anything is driving discount prices, it's cheap Chinese imports. History proves that out with the loss of all bike manufactures, most motorcycle manufactures and a significant hit to the automobile industry when Japan, a cheaper manufacturer, got a toehold in the United States. Another factor in all this is dealers of the big brands (BH, Stromer, Specialized, Accell Brands) are all discounting ebikes. Last summer when I was shopping for an ebike in earnest, all the dealers offered discount prices. I hadn't settled that after shopping elsewhere I would go to Len, but since there aren't any dealers remotely close to me, I decided I would give support to an active member here. In addition I didn't have to dicker with Len, whereas the other dealers I visited I had to do a song and dance.

By the way, Lenny's now has a DIY section on his site. I'm betting it will be expanded in the future. https://www.crazylennysebikes.com/diy-and-misc-items.html

 

[George S.]

I'm glad prices are coming down. I've noticed it a little. The two changes last year were the $700 Storm and the $350 quality, name brand battery pack for DIY (or whatever) from Luna. I mentioned it early on, said it was a great development. Luna has smaller packs and I've suggested they sell them to people with 3-4 year old Accell and BH products, if they can work out the connections. I think lower cost batteries changed a lot. That's been a DIY and CF thing. Credit Sondors for a lot of the changes, really.

I have been really critical of Bafang (it's a monopoly) and Golden Motor (zero support on some things). It's all over my comments on Karl's great site, and on the Luna Forum. I'd like to see some other DIY motors than the BBS series and a couple of good hubs. I'd like to see more creativity. Paul comes up with the EEB, supplies a parts list, but how can he sell it with the regs? Why should I support people who want to limit choices?

There's no reason DIY can't develop good PAS systems. Again, Bafang, as a virtual DIY monopoly, is not all that responsive. I think DIY should look at what Stromer does, some of their sensor systems, and try to package it to work on all the motors that are out there. We do computer stuff in this country. We can write firmware and apps.

I don't know if it's friendly or if people are on the same page. A level of competitiveness would be healthy. I know Lenny has depth with his people, so they should sell into the DIY market. Chris at Propel offers the BBSHD, but I don't know what he does with it.

 

[vincent]

ravi when looking for a full suspension mountain bike that folds this cemoto was one of the only ones i found and at 800 was a good deal, realize it does not have the warranty etc
but it was a great bike for me to get started on, fall off, wreck and possibly scratch etc

i really like the warranty on the easy motion, one of my main reasons for thinking of buying one

am intrigued by the diy stuff but it is a matter of how many hobbies can you have
and i know nothing about bikes in general so would have to learn about bikes, then about converting to electric etc
sure it takes years to learn about a lot of this stuff

but think george makes some good points about being able to get exactly what you want and probably for a little less money

for me paying an extra grand or so for the luxury of dropping it off at the shop if any problems is worth it though, and i like the streamlined look of these newer bikes with the battery in the downtubes etc



somehow doubt the e bike companies care so much about people being lazy and using them more like scooters as they do selling more bikes, guessing bottom line tops all

but i do think the regular bike people who dont tend to like ebikes are more inclined to like only pas systems than throttle types

when i was reading the mountain bike reviews on this forum my impression was court thought the bikes with throttle override were a good thing, he referenced having extra boost to climb hills etc

was riding in 20-25 mph winds the other day and pedaling without power i could maybe hit 7-8mpg, with pas 11-12 but when i was riding straight into a headwind even pas was dropping, turned the throttle and got a nice boost- actually more than i expected

this was one of the few times i have used the throttle but it stuck in my mind as the time to use it and that you need it, never occurred to me that all these 3000-4500 bikes did not have that, just caught that when i was reading courts reviews

again it just seems like a nice option to me
if you dont need it, dont use it


i definitely need to ride a lot of different bikes and learn more about the mid drive etc stuff

i probably dont really need another bike but kind of caught up in it all now lol
and would like to have a more nimble and maybe a little more powerful bike for hills if that is possible

knowing a little more my goal is to get a bike that fits me well, is possibly a little more agile
and that has the power to do harder riding if i want to keep up with friends

other than that the cemoto has been great

 

[vincent]

something else i thought a lot of ebike people do is use these to ride to work, that seems like a time when throttle override would be used a lot

sure some people have showers etc at work, but others probably dont want to get sweaty on the way to work and use mostly throttle, then pedal on the way home to get exercise
that is certainly what i would do

maybe this wont matter quite as much in a cooler climate but here in az would be huge

 

[Joergen8]

On topic, I wonder if it would be possible to manipulate the TMM4 hall sensor, either by direct mechanical means, or by interrupting the signal from it. It might be feasible to set up a throttle that merely simulates pedal torque, and would work on all assist levels.

Edit2: just tried this with my new second motor and my old one. If you open the little lid with two Allen screws on the outside of the tmm4 sensor block, you can manipulate the Hall-sensor with a pointy tool to simulate pedal torque. While on a mechanic repair stand, my Euro motor gave 30,3 km/h (with full wheel attached), and the US motor gave 44,3km/h (with just the bare motor).

I noticed that if you keep steady pressure on the sensor, it will only go for a couple seconds at a time, and you have to readjust the pressure to make it go again. So while you could create a mechanical lever or even a simple electric circuit to mimic the sensor, it's much easier to just use your foot to pump the cranks.

 

[PowerMe]

I find I rarely use my throttle but I do like having it as an option. The thing to understand is when you use your throttle you'll probably be using up your battery faster which means less range than using PAS. That's been my experience on my EM Evo Street. Especially so on hills of any incline. Using the throttle judiciously is fine though, like using it at an intersection to get moving.

I feel more in control with PAS, especially at an intersection, so that's my default. If you've got a decent amount of battery power left and you need to throttle the bike to get home, you can probably get 10 mi on it. I wouldn't expect much more than that, though I'm sure some people have gotten more.

ETA: I agree that having to turn the PAS to zero in order to engage the throttle is a hassle. It's one of the 'features' I don't like on my bike.

 

[vincent]

thanks for trying it joergen

usually get 4 rides out of my battery before charging at all, so that has not been an issue for me
even after 4 rides it is not dead just starting to look low

but those are mostly flat ground 8-10 miles rides using pas maybe 30-40% and hardly any throttle

but i am sure it does use the battery way more

looks like my pas has 5-6 magnets and the more i read realize this is going to give a more surgy feel to it, think that is why i have to either use throttle or make sure the electric is off completely if going around a sharp bend, 180 etc
like you get with the gates going into the bike paths

need to post over on the diy forum and see if i can replace that with a 12 magnet or something....

 

[Pablo L]

On topic, I wonder if it would be possible to manipulate the TMM4 hall sensor, either by direct mechanical means, or by interrupting the signal from it. It might be feasible to set up a throttle that merely simulates pedal torque, and would work on all assist levels.

Edit2: just tried this with my new second motor and my old one. If you open the little lid with two Allen screws on the outside of the tmm4 sensor block, you can manipulate the Hall-sensor with a pointy tool to simulate pedal torque. While on a mechanic repair stand, my Euro motor gave 30,3 km/h (with full wheel attached), and the US motor gave 44,3km/h (with just the bare motor).

I noticed that if you keep steady pressure on the sensor, it will only go for a couple seconds at a time, and you have to readjust the pressure to make it go again. So while you could create a mechanical lever or even a simple electric circuit to mimic the sensor, it's much easier to just use your foot to pump the cranks.

The TMM4 is a hall effect sensor. So, i will try with this circuit. It permit to accelerate with a push button.
What do you think about it?