Thinking of maybe getting a Gazelle C380, but I'd like to consider alternatives

[Eiri]

For the first time in my life, I've got a shed with enough room for a bike, I don't own a car, so I'm really looking forward to having a convenient mode of transportation. It doesn't help that there don't seem to be a lot of brands offered near me. I can likely convince my mom to accompany me for one trip to Québec City or Montréal to a store where they allow you to try bikes at some point, but I probably need to have a good idea of what I want beforehand.

The Gazelle Ultimate C380 HMB seems good and the green colorway is great, but for one, I know it's a little risky to go for your first choice without properly understanding the market (which I really struggle to), and there are a few points about it that give me pause:

• I'm not sure how well it would perform in winter conditions
• It looks like it might be difficult to get a front basket because of the suspension?
• Apparently the lock and key system aren't very convenient?
• I watched a couple of review videos on this site, as well as read the text reviews, and they don't exactly make it easy to make a decision. Like, all right, they're all good bikes. But which one do I pick?

So, I thought maybe I could get advice. Let's start from the beginning.

About me

I'm a woman, around 165 cm tall and quite sedentary. I live in Chicoutimi, a relatively small, cold and hilly place. I barely get out of my apartment, and I'm hoping that now that I've moved closer to civilization, having a convenient mode of transportation will encourage me to go out more and do my own shopping instead of always doing taxis or asking for lifts. I'm looking for something as low-maintenance as possible so that I have as few excuses as possible to stay home.

Usage

Mostly errands, going to see friends, etc. I also intend to commute with it when I occasionally go to the office in person, although that's not even a weekly thing. (I mostly work from home.) I don't think I'll need a ton of range; 20-30 Km might be enough. But considering I'll also be using it when it's cold, I don't know how much that'd affect range, but I probably want more than that.

Budget

I'm prepared to pay up to, say, 10,000~12,000 CAD (7,400~8,900 USD), but at that price, the bike would need to have some really dang convincing advantages.

Mostly, I'm expecting to pay about 3,000~7000 CAD (2,200~5,200 USD).

Criteria

• I'd really like something that has gears but no dérailleur.
  • I live somewhere pretty hilly, and I've got a bit of a trauma with dérailleurs where I always realize I have to downshift while I'm ascending a hill, and then I need to go back down to shift and try again, or get off the bike. That, and shifting failing and having to fiddle with the chain sucks.
• I'd like a belt drive.
  • I want something as permissive as possible when it comes to maintenance.
  • Winter riding means salt on the roads. I figure a metal chain would be more susceptible to that.
• I'd like something with a step-through frame
  • They look really comfy and convenient, and I'm not sure I would ever do anything that requires the rigidity of a triangular frame
• I need a removable battery that can charge off the bike.
  • It gets pretty cold here, and there's no way it's a good idea to leave a battery outside when it's -30 °C.
  • I do have a shed, but it's not heated.
• The bike needs to perform at least okay in winter conditions on reasonably cleared roads.
  • It's pretty cold here, we get a lot of snow and winter is long
  • The bike will be my only mode of transportation
  • I probably don't need a full-on fat bike; I don't want to go out on uncleared roads or during a terrible snowstorm, but it would suck if I can't get anywhere the second there's any amount of snow or ice.
• I also need help choosing a cargo hauling solution.
  • The main use case will be for groceries.
  • The most straightforward thing I can think of would be a big box on the rack where I can put 2-3 big grocery bags like these, and just grab the bags to get them upstairs afterwards but you don't see that pattern recommended very often, so I suppose there's a reason.
  • I've also considered a trailer like the Burley Nomad.
  • I really don't know what's the best idea.
• Nice to have: I'd like a front basket for my purse and a water bottle.
  • Before any other cargo, I'll be carrying my purse pretty much everywhere, and it doesn't sound very convenient to have to fiddle with saddlebags at every stop.
• Nice to have: I get lost easily, so it might be nice to have some sort of navigation on the bike.
  • I really don't think I need anything integrated though. It seems bike phone mounts are a thing, so unless you guys think it's a bad idea, I thought I might get something like that.
• Nice to have: Turn signal flashers might be reassuring
  • It's been a long time since I've ridden in traffic, but I remember that I struggled to keep my bike steady while using one hand to signal my intent to others. Maybe I'd just get used to it and it'd get easy after a while, though. Also, maybe that's something you can just slap onto most bikes with aftermarket products?

Other options

My head spins when I consider the million brands and models, so please don't consider these are all the options I'm open to. I'm only giving them for the sake of completeness.

• The Riese & Müller Nevo4 looks nice as well, and it has an integrated front rack. But it's much more expensive than the Gazelle C380. Is it really worth all that money?
• The Specialized Turbo Como looks like it matches my criteria, and it has a front basket integrated. But I'm not sure why, something feels off about it. Also, it's a mid-step. Is that as convenient as a low-step?
• The Evelo Omega looks like it'd work, but wouldn't I want a rear rack? Also, not convinced how much I trust that app-controlled automatic shifting thing.
• There are likely about 1000 other models that would work with my criteria, and I have no idea what to get.

 

[Roamers]

Don't know how good it is in winter because we store them in the winter, but the C380 goes great with this Shwinn trailer for cargo.

 

[indianajo]

The Gazelle C380 hmb is reported to have a bosch performance line mid drive motor. https://electricbikereview.com/gazelle/ultimate-c380-plus-hmb/
In temperatures below 45 F, my experience is that range is reduced by half. With quoted range at 25 miles this puts you at 12 miles. Another detail, one absolutely cannot charge any lithium ion battery at or below freezing. That means , IMHO, charging indoors.
I live in Indiana, and from October to mid-April, I disconnect my battery from the bike and store it in an outbuilding under a heating pad. I pedal my geared hub motor around unpowered, twice or more a week to the grocery, home store, hardware. There is no drag in my motor. I do not ride 54 miles R.T. to my summer camp in the winter, certainly not against 25 mph headwinds that caused me to add electricity to my bike.
A Bosch performance line, unpowered, you will drag the motor with your feet.
The gazelle is a quality bike, and the evolo drive is low trouble. Belt drive helps long distance commuters extend their maintenance cycle from ~1500-2000 miles chain replacement, to ~10000 miles or better belt replacement.
Gazelle comes in 3 sizes, which could possible fit your body size.
Groceries on a cruiser frame, I had trouble with the front wheel snapping sideways, and throwing me on my chin. Groceries on the back lift weight off the front wheel. I hit my chin 5 times 2008-2018 on 3 brands of bike. 3 of those times I had no groceries, just the baskets tools water I normally carry. I ride a stretch frame cargo bike now, which has not thrown me in 4 years. It puts my weight on the front wheel, the cargo on the back wheel.
If you are serious about riding in the winter, and shopping off your bicycle, I would suggest you check out a blix packa. They have had 1 post on their brand known problems and solutions thread. It has a no-drag geared hub motor that can be ridden unpowered in the winter without motor drag. Packa has a front rack accessory optional. I recommend the double leg stand option for loading groceries. https://electricbikereview.com/blix/packa-genie/
If you really want dealer support, giant momentum has a stretch frame cargo bike with mid drive with a yamaha mid drive that does not drag when the battery is disconnected and stored. https://electricbikereview.com/momentum/momentum-pakyak-e-plus/
I would much rather pedal 2 wheels through crunchy snow, or ice after the plow moves it, than 4 wheels with a trailer. I don't give up buying groceries in the winter. In s. Indiana, I haven't had to ride the bus to the grocery for 3 years. I can't carry my bad habit diet soda on the bus, nor anything heavy. My yuba bodaboda cargo bike in the avatar will handle 60 lb groceries easily and 80 lb at times. I do ride in snow, on knobby tires with no studs. Only if there is a thaw & refreeze that causes patches of glare ice, will I stay home on grocery day. I do wear clothes, I'm ex-Army and know how to wear layers, mittens, overgloves, boots, helmet liner. I've done a grocery run at 6 F.
Best of luck moving to a low-environmental impact ride.

 

[Dewey]

I love Gazelle bikes and the 2023 model year Ultimate C380 with the updated Bosch smart system would be worth waiting for, because it will increase the power of the Performance motor to a more competitive 75Nm, and provide navigation on the Kiox 300 display paired with your phone running the eFlow app.

Other bikes you might like to look at include the upcoming step through model from Zen Ebikes that apparently uses a Bafang Ultra motor that would be a very strong hill climber.

Also the Dost Drop CVT uses the Bafang BBS02 motor and Enviolo CVT which is similar to the set up on my DIY ebike with a BBS01 motor and Enviolo. I have been riding mine with a chain covered with a chainglider case and it has held up well riding in winter rain on salted roads.

 

[Taylor57]

For the first time in my life, I've got a shed with enough room for a bike, I don't own a car, so I'm really looking forward to having a convenient mode of transportation. It doesn't help that there don't seem to be a lot of brands offered near me. I can likely convince my mom to accompany me for one trip to Québec City or Montréal to a store where they allow you to try bikes at some point, but I probably need to have a good idea of what I want beforehand.

The Gazelle Ultimate C380 HMB seems good and the green colorway is great, but for one, I know it's a little risky to go for your first choice without properly understanding the market (which I really struggle to), and there are a few points about it that give me pause:

• I'm not sure how well it would perform in winter conditions
• It looks like it might be difficult to get a front basket because of the suspension?
• Apparently the lock and key system aren't very convenient?
• I watched a couple of review videos on this site, as well as read the text reviews, and they don't exactly make it easy to make a decision. Like, all right, they're all good bikes. But which one do I pick?

So, I thought maybe I could get advice. Let's start from the beginning.

About me

I'm a woman, around 165 cm tall and quite sedentary. I live in Chicoutimi, a relatively small, cold and hilly place. I barely get out of my apartment, and I'm hoping that now that I've moved closer to civilization, having a convenient mode of transportation will encourage me to go out more and do my own shopping instead of always doing taxis or asking for lifts. I'm looking for something as low-maintenance as possible so that I have as few excuses as possible to stay home.

Usage

Mostly errands, going to see friends, etc. I also intend to commute with it when I occasionally go to the office in person, although that's not even a weekly thing. (I mostly work from home.) I don't think I'll need a ton of range; 20-30 Km might be enough. But considering I'll also be using it when it's cold, I don't know how much that'd affect range, but I probably want more than that.

Budget

I'm prepared to pay up to, say, 10,000~12,000 CAD (7,400~8,900 USD), but at that price, the bike would need to have some really dang convincing advantages.

Mostly, I'm expecting to pay about 3,000~7000 CAD (2,200~5,200 USD).

Criteria

• I'd really like something that has gears but no dérailleur.
  • I live somewhere pretty hilly, and I've got a bit of a trauma with dérailleurs where I always realize I have to downshift while I'm ascending a hill, and then I need to go back down to shift and try again, or get off the bike. That, and shifting failing and having to fiddle with the chain sucks.
• I'd like a belt drive.
  • I want something as permissive as possible when it comes to maintenance.
  • Winter riding means salt on the roads. I figure a metal chain would be more susceptible to that.
• I'd like something with a step-through frame
  • They look really comfy and convenient, and I'm not sure I would ever do anything that requires the rigidity of a triangular frame
• I need a removable battery that can charge off the bike.
  • It gets pretty cold here, and there's no way it's a good idea to leave a battery outside when it's -30 °C.
  • I do have a shed, but it's not heated.
• The bike needs to perform at least okay in winter conditions on reasonably cleared roads.
  • It's pretty cold here, we get a lot of snow and winter is long
  • The bike will be my only mode of transportation
  • I probably don't need a full-on fat bike; I don't want to go out on uncleared roads or during a terrible snowstorm, but it would suck if I can't get anywhere the second there's any amount of snow or ice.
• I also need help choosing a cargo hauling solution.
  • The main use case will be for groceries.
  • The most straightforward thing I can think of would be a big box on the rack where I can put 2-3 big grocery bags like these, and just grab the bags to get them upstairs afterwards but you don't see that pattern recommended very often, so I suppose there's a reason.
  • I've also considered a trailer like the Burley Nomad.
  • I really don't know what's the best idea.
• Nice to have: I'd like a front basket for my purse and a water bottle.
  • Before any other cargo, I'll be carrying my purse pretty much everywhere, and it doesn't sound very convenient to have to fiddle with saddlebags at every stop.
• Nice to have: I get lost easily, so it might be nice to have some sort of navigation on the bike.
  • I really don't think I need anything integrated though. It seems bike phone mounts are a thing, so unless you guys think it's a bad idea, I thought I might get something like that.
• Nice to have: Turn signal flashers might be reassuring
  • It's been a long time since I've ridden in traffic, but I remember that I struggled to keep my bike steady while using one hand to signal my intent to others. Maybe I'd just get used to it and it'd get easy after a while, though. Also, maybe that's something you can just slap onto most bikes with aftermarket products?

Other options

My head spins when I consider the million brands and models, so please don't consider these are all the options I'm open to. I'm only giving them for the sake of completeness.

• The Riese & Müller Nevo4 looks nice as well, and it has an integrated front rack. But it's much more expensive than the Gazelle C380. Is it really worth all that money?
• The Specialized Turbo Como looks like it matches my criteria, and it has a front basket integrated. But I'm not sure why, something feels off about it. Also, it's a mid-step. Is that as convenient as a low-step?
• The Evelo Omega looks like it'd work, but wouldn't I want a rear rack? Also, not convinced how much I trust that app-controlled automatic shifting thing.
• There are likely about 1000 other models that would work with my criteria, and I have no idea what to get.

Don't sleep on the Frey CC. Mid drive with a throttle. Comes in at 70 lbs which is a tad heavy, but it is solid. I had one for about a year and enjoyed it. Full suspension with good components. Brakes were good, and I believe you can get a front rack. Comes standard with rear rack and fenders. I also ordered a dropper post, (which I rarely used) and a gear shift sensor which I'm not sure I even know if it worked! It looks to be in your price range and working with Frey was great. The communicate well via email and I think they even have a distribution site in California. Good luck on your quest...

Highly recommended! Savannah ULTRA - CC (Bafang M620, Full Suspension, 27.5

Frey CC: our most famous step through full-suspension e-bike. Bafang M620 Mid-drive System, built-in Big Capacity Battery System 840WH and more. Check now!

frey.bike

 

[Mulezen]

Zen is a Canadian company with the owner active on this site. He has some experience with cargo types too.

 

[Roamers]

With quoted range at 25 miles this puts you at 12 miles

That is minimum est range. Based on my experience, you'd have to be going uphill with full assist to do that bad. My wife goes 70 miles easily, I go 50 towing the trailer with my 290# body.

 

[Eiri]

Groceries on a cruiser frame, I had trouble with the front wheel snapping sideways, and throwing me on my chin. Groceries on the back lift weight off the front wheel. I hit my chin 5 times 2008-2018 on 3 brands of bike. 3 of those times I had no groceries, just the baskets tools water I normally carry.

Can you elaborate on how you fell and what caused it? I'm not sure I understand.

It has a no-drag geared hub motor that can be ridden unpowered in the winter without motor drag.

I'm not sure I understand: why do you have to ride unpowered in the winter? It would kinda suck if I bought an e-bike, only to ride it like a needlessly heavy normal bike half the year!

Another detail, one absolutely cannot charge any lithium ion battery at or below freezing. That means , IMHO, charging indoors.

Oh yeah it was my plan to charge the battery indoors all along. Actually, to get used to it, I think I'll just charge it indoors even in the summer. That way I can't forget it outside.

If you are serious about riding in the winter, and shopping off your bicycle

If I go with a cargo model like that, how would you recommend I load groceries onto the bike?

Also, the wheels on cargo bikes seem kinda small. Does that affect anything?

I love Gazelle bikes and the 2023 model year Ultimate C380 with the updated Bosch smart system would be worth waiting for, because it will increase the power of the Performance motor to a more competitive 75Nm.

Where can I find information on that upcoming model?

Edit: Sorry, accidentally posted before I was finished writing. Additional replies to other people incoming.

 

[Eiri]

Other bikes you might like to look at include the upcoming step through model from Zen Ebikes that apparently uses a Bafang Ultra motor that would be a very strong hill climber.

Have they released more info than what you linked me to? It's not much to go off of.

Also the Dost Drop CVT uses the Bafang BBS02 motor and Enviolo CVT which is similar to the set up on my DIY ebike with a BBS01 motor and Enviolo. I have been riding mine with a chain covered with a chainglider case and it has held up well riding in winter rain on salted roads.

How would that one compare to the Gazelle? It's even tough to even know how to compare them. They seem really similar.

That is minimum est range. Based on my experience, you'd have to be going uphill with full assist to do that bad. My wife goes 70 miles easily, I go 50 towing the trailer with my 290# body.

Phew. That estimation indeed seemed really pessimistic.

Don't sleep on the Frey CC

Sorry, I tremble at the sight of the dérailleur. Maybe I'm unreasonably scared of them, but dang have they made me hate bikes in the past.

 

[Taylor57]

Have they released more info than what you linked me to? It's not much to go off of.


How would that one compare to the Gazelle? It's even tough to even know how to compare them. They seem really similar.


Phew. That estimation indeed seemed really pessimistic.


Sorry, I tremble at the sight of the dérailleur. Maybe I'm unreasonably scared of them, but dang have they made me hate bikes in the past.

Ah, don't let a derailleur scare you off-but I will defer to the riders on this site that have a ton more knowledge than I do..

 

[Dewey]

Where can I find information on that upcoming model?

I saw it discussed by one of our European members on this thread, but there are a couple of shops with MY23 specs listed like this Texas store, just not on the official Gazelle North America site yet.

Re: Zen Ebikes, is a small custom ebike builder in Halifax, NS. It would be best to contact them directly, one of the co-founders @Ravi Kempaiah is a forum member and you could message him here if you prefer.

Re: Dost Drop comparison to Gazelle Ultimate C380, they use different ebike systems, Gazelle uses Bosch which are strictly torque sensing pedal assist, no throttle. By comparison Dost with the Bafang has a basic but adequate cadence-based PAS sensor and a throttle. Performance-wise the new Gazelle Ultimate with Smart System would have similar power to the Dost Drop. But it would help to take test rides if possible as they might feel different to ride, for example my DIY ebike has a Bafang mid-drive and Enviolo CVT, but recently I test rode a friends Tern GSD with a similar drivetrain but with a Bosch Cargo motor and Enviolo CVT, but the two bikes feel completely different to ride, I was blown away by how solid and smooth the Tern felt to ride.

 

[indianajo]

Can you elaborate on how you fell and what caused it? I'm not sure I understand.

On 2 MTB (Pacific & Diamondback) and a Huffy Savannah cruiser with rear baskets, if I hit a ridge of gravel, or a 1 1/2" high pavement separator, or a speed bump, or a stick, the handlebar would rip out of my hands, the front wheel would snap sideways, the seat would rise up, and I would be thrown over the handlebars on my chin. Broke it in 2017 at 25 mph. Riders on roadbikereview told me "hold onto the handlebars". Yeah, right! Roadbikers hunch over the front wheel with a flat back, and have a lot of weight on the the front wheel. Cruiser & MTB riders that sit upright, 75% of the rider's weight is on the back wheel. Groceries or baskets make it worse. I measured my MTB once with groceries & without me as 120 lb rear wheel, 20 lb front wheel.
The gazelle 380 has cruiser posture.
So the stretch frame cargo bike puts my weight on the front wheel without my damaging my neck by straining to see the road with a flat back in road bike posture. No problems so far, since I got the bodaboda Jan 2018.

I'm not sure I understand: why do you have to ride unpowered in the winter? It would kinda suck if I bought an e-bike, only to ride it like a needlessly heavy normal bike half the year!

Bottom line, you may not want an e-bike for Canadian winters. Never charging the battery below freezing may not be doable. You make that mistake on the Gazelle, you've blown $1100. Neither are trips over 10 miles at 20 deg F with a 500 wh battery like the Bosch. I'm strong enough to pedal 94 lb of bicycle tools tubes & tire water rain gear & 60 lb of groceries totally unpowered, because I do that for 27 miles twice a week in the summer. What I don't want to do is ride 6 hours at 4 mph into a 25 mph headwind for 27 miles. Like September 2017. 140 bpm (heartrate) all the way, and winds are getting higher all the time. 95 mph last Thursday. 35 mph wind gusts 5 days last week.
You may want a gas scooter. What is bad about those, the cheap scooters only last a year. My observations of the people that live in the apartments down the street. Plus the noise is horrid; I can hear most scooters a mile away. I don't know if a gas scooter will start in Canada winter, look & ask around.
My $630 ebike battery is 4 1/3 years old works fine. Geared hub motors last ~5000 miles and replacements are <$300 on ebay. Bosch & Yamaha mid drives reportedly last longer but repairs are usually >$1000 if not under warrenty. Batteries for those brands are >$1000.

 

[TrevorB]

Gazelle is good choice especially low maintenance belt drive. Range shouldn't be issue but would look at purchasing neoprene cover to wrap around battery compartment to help keep it warmer. Ask shop you purchase it from about suitable winter tires and learn how to change them yourself as eventually you will need to deal with a puncture.

For grocery shopping start with a couple of Vaude 24l panniers you will be amazed at how much you can fit. Heavy stuff in bottom of pannier eg cans. Can also strap bulky light stuff to top of rack eg toilet paper. A backpack will give you extra carrying capacity. Shopping more often means you don't have to carry as much and gives you an excuse to go for another ride.

Wife and I leave a single pannier almost permanently locked onto bike. It contains tools, tubes and wife uses it for her purse. For small items (keys glasses, phone )we have small zip pouches on handlebar, they are belt pouches for hunters and come in range of sizes.

Last but most importantly test ride a few bikes and for extended periods 15-30minutes.

 

[Eiri]

Roadbikers hunch over the front wheel with a flat back

So if I understand properly, you have a lot of experience riding on road bikes, and on those bikes, you have to hunch forward a lot, and that "professional deformation" made you always want to hunch forward even though the bike was made with an upright posture in mind. Is that right?

In that case, am I correct to assume it'll probably be okay for me if I haven't ridden in a long time, and thus probably don't really have that kind of tendency? In other words, do I still have to worry about that kind of scary fall if I sit pretty straight?

Never charging the battery below freezing may not be doable

What do you mean? If I bring the battery inside for charging, is it not okay?

You may want a gas scooter.

Yeesh, those make me want to hurl insults and other things at riders because of the noise. Maybe not. Also part of the point of the ebike is to get some amount of exercise.

Bosch & Yamaha mid drives reportedly last longer but repairs are usually >$1000 if not under warrenty. Batteries for those brands are >$1000.

Dang, they don't mess around. Though if I remind myself of the absurd amount of effort and money car owners put on their vehicles... I guess the pill is swallowable.

Range shouldn't be issue but would look at purchasing neoprene cover to wrap around battery compartment to help keep it warmer

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I hadn't considered the possibility of keeping the battery warmer while riding.

Ask shop you purchase it from about suitable winter tires and learn how to change them yourself as eventually you will need to deal with a puncture.

Ah, I guess "puncture-resistant" isn't as magical as one might hope lol. Got it.

For grocery shopping start with a couple of Vaude 24l panniers

So you basically uninstall them from the bike, use them as grocery bags inside, and bring them up to the kitchen to unpack at home? Ah, and what's good about those panniers in particular? Compared to, say, the first-party Gazelle ones, or the million other options you see on Amazon?

Last but most importantly test ride a few bikes and for extended periods 15-30minutes.

Do a lot of stores allow that? How do they make sure you don't steal it? I know for cars the salesperson will just ride with the test driver, but how does it work with bikes?

It contains tools, tubes and wife uses it for her purse

Might sound dumb but... I need to carry tools?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Eiri,
I have been hesitating to take any part in this discussion for a while as you seem to be asking for a kind of a "do it all" unicorn

• Belt-drive, IGH, maintenance free
• A good climber
• Low-step
• Hauling, front basket, cargo capability
• Good for winter

If we take the subject of winter riding in Canada alone, that is the subject to fill a decent size book... @Prairie Dog, any thoughts to share here?
A climber e-bike requires a powerful motor (such as 85 Nm) and is the best with the derailleur system.
Low-step options are limited and such e-bikes are urban creatures.
It is not easy to find a regular e-bike to be also capable to carry a lot of cargo.

That's why I really cannot give any meaningful advice to you.

I love Gazelle bikes and the 2023 model year Ultimate C380 with the updated Bosch smart system would be worth waiting for

This is a very good point. I can see a big difference what the Dutch Gazelle offers for Europe compared to the North America at the moment. The reason is Gazelle has to sell out the manufactured stock of their e-bikes with the older Bosch E-Bike system, while new Gazelles with the new Bosch Smart System, more powerful motors and bigger batteries are already available in several European Union countries.

Other bikes you might like to look at include the upcoming step through model from Zen Ebikes that apparently uses a Bafang Ultra motor that would be a very strong hill climber.

Zen Ebikes also manufacture e-bikes with Bosch E-Bike system. Personally I do not think the overpowered Bafang Ultra would be good for winter rides; too much power to the rear wheel would certainly create dangerous slippage.

@Eiri perhaps you could just express your desires to Zen Ebikes? That small Canadian company makes custom e-bikes driven by customers' wishes I think. Talk with @Ravi Kempaiah on that.

 

[indianajo]

​

Roadbikers hunch over the front wheel with a flat back

So if I understand properly, you have a lot of experience riding on road bikes, and on those bikes, you have to hunch forward a lot, and that "professional deformation" made you always want to hunch forward even though the bike was made with an upright posture in mind. Is that right?
In that case, am I correct to assume it'll probably be okay for me if I haven't ridden in a long time, and thus probably don't really have that kind of tendency? In other words, do I still have to worry about that kind of scary fall if I sit pretty straight?

I've never ridden with a flat back hunched over with my neck bent 90 degress in my life. My Mother ruptured a neck disk typing at a bad workstation, and I'm built just like her. She was in pain every minute of the rest of her life. I ride sitting straight up like Mary Poppins on the caroussel horse. That unloads my weight from the front tire on a cruiser or MTB frame. I was pitched off cruisers & MTB's, 5 times. My cargo bike doesn't do that.
Many apartments and landlords will be prohibiting charging or storage of e-bikes indoors. Some already have. 2 children died in a bike fire in NYC yesterday. I charge my battery outside, not in the winter.
I grocery shop with a store supplied cart, then transfer the groceries to the panniers on the bike in the parking lot. Why double leg stands are useful while loading. My panniers came from yubabikes.
Tools tubes allow one to fix a flat without pushing the bike home or calling a tow truck. I waved a $50 bill at ~20 pickups while pushing groceries 7 miles on a 96 deg F day. I blew a tire sidewall that day. Since they have invented fold flat tires, I carry one everywhere now. None of my friends have a pickup or van.
I use knobby tires for puncture resistance. I change them out when the knobs get down to 3/32" tall. 4 of 5 go 2000 miles without a flat. No slime, no liners, no $100 tires. The kenda or giant knobbies are $26 each.
When test riding, leave a credit card with the store if they give you trouble about not driving your car to the store.

 

[Eiri]

A climber e-bike requires a powerful motor (such as 85 Nm) and is the best with the derailleur system.

What do you mean by "requires"? What kind of issues would I face in a hill if the motor is a little too weak? Is it just a matter of "the ebike would only make the climb a bit easier, not a total breeze" or would I find myself entirely unable to climb the hill because the motor went psssh? Because if it's the former, that sounds manageable...?

is the best with the derailleur system

How so? By what margin? Because so far my experience with hills and dérailleurs has been "welp, gotta get off the bike, I didn't downshift enough and now I'm stuck", I'm kinda scared of them but maybe I'm just misunderstanding something?

@Eiri perhaps you could just express your desires to Zen Ebikes? That small Canadian company makes custom e-bikes driven by customers' wishes I think. Talk with @Ravi Kempaiah on that.

They make bikes to order?! Would that be, like, really expensive? Though I'm not sure @Ravi Kempaiah is available these days; they've been tagged a few times on this thread already. Unless I'm misunderstanding how notifications work?

It is not easy to find a regular e-bike to be also capable to carry a lot of cargo.

Well, I don't have a strong attachment to on-bike cargo capacity. I'm entirely fine with a trailer, really. That would be fine, right?

I've never ridden with a flat back hunched over with my neck bent 90 degress in my life. My Mother ruptured a neck disk typing at a bad workstation, and I'm built just like her. She was in pain every minute of the rest of her life. I ride sitting straight up like Mary Poppins on the caroussel horse. That unloads my weight from the front tire on a cruiser or MTB frame. I was pitched off cruisers & MTB's, 5 times. My cargo bike doesn't do that.

I'm increasingly confused about those falls. Weren't you talking about getting thrown off the bike forward before?

I grocery shop with a store supplied cart, then transfer the groceries to the panniers on the bike in the parking lot. Why double leg stands are useful while loading. My panniers came from yubabikes.

Oh, I see. Thanks, I think I understand the concept pretty well.

$26 each.

Pretty cheap!

Since they have invented fold flat tires, I carry one everywhere now

Oh, that sounds pretty smart.

When test riding, leave a credit card with the store if they give you trouble about not driving your car to the store.

I see!

Many apartments and landlords will be prohibiting charging or storage of e-bikes indoors. Some already have. 2 children died in a bike fire in NYC yesterday. I charge my battery outside, not in the winter.

But at that point, with laptops getting 100 Wh batteries (smaller but still in the same order of magnitude), shouldn't they just start banning all batteries? Doesn't make much sense to me. To begin with, if it's liable to blow up, sounds like they should sue the battery company that makes dangerous stuff, not ban batteries.

Either way, I have to charge the battery inside; the shed doesn't have power outlets.

This is a very good point. I can see a big difference what the Dutch Gazelle offers for Europe compared to the North America at the moment. The reason is Gazelle has to sell out the manufactured stock of their e-bikes with the older Bosch E-Bike system, while new Gazelles with the new Bosch Smart System, more powerful motors and bigger batteries are already available in several European Union countries.

Apparently, they can't divulge anything specific, but it's a "coming very soon" kinda deal.

 

[indianajo]

I'm increasingly confused about those falls. Weren't you talking about getting thrown off the bike forward before?

I fell forwards over the handlebar off mountain bikes & cruisers. Gazelle 380 is a cruiser.
If you charge a bike battery inside and it catches fire, and the landlord has a policy prohibiting that - you pay for the new house or apartment. This issue is moving fast, NYC is in the forefront.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

So if I understand properly, you have a lot of experience riding on road bikes, and on those bikes, you have to hunch forward a lot, and that "professional deformation" made you always want to hunch forward even though the bike was made with an upright posture in mind. Is that right?

In that case, am I correct to assume it'll probably be okay for me if I haven't ridden in a long time, and thus probably don't really have that kind of tendency? In other words, do I still have to worry about that kind of scary fall if I sit pretty straight?


What do you mean? If I bring the battery inside for charging, is it not okay?


Yeesh, those make me want to hurl insults and other things at riders because of the noise. Maybe not. Also part of the point of the ebike is to get some amount of exercise.


Dang, they don't mess around. Though if I remind myself of the absurd amount of effort and money car owners put on their vehicles... I guess the pill is swallowable.


That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I hadn't considered the possibility of keeping the battery warmer while riding.


Ah, I guess "puncture-resistant" isn't as magical as one might hope lol. Got it.


So you basically uninstall them from the bike, use them as grocery bags inside, and bring them up to the kitchen to unpack at home? Ah, and what's good about those panniers in particular? Compared to, say, the first-party Gazelle ones, or the million other options you see on Amazon?


Do a lot of stores allow that? How do they make sure you don't steal it? I know for cars the salesperson will just ride with the test driver, but how does it work with bikes?


Might sound dumb but... I need to carry tools?

Thanks for thinking of us @Dewey and @Stefan Mikes
@Eiri , we do assemble Bosch-platform based E-bikes and we do have some belt-driven bikes with Enviolo heavy duty IGH.
Happy to share more info. The bike we are receiving towards the end of May has an advanced BMS+ battery (52V,20Ah)/ smart charger combo.
The production version will have front basket capability as well. It will look something closer to the render shown below.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What do you mean by "requires"? What kind of issues would I face in a hill if the motor is a little too weak? Is it just a matter of "the ebike would only make the climb a bit easier, not a total breeze" or would I find myself entirely unable to climb the hill because the motor went psssh? Because if it's the former, that sounds manageable...?

With a steep hill ahead, the rider downshifts (to make the pedalling easier) and gradually increases the assistance. With inadequate gearing and underpowered motor, the e-bike slows down as much as it becomes impossible to control it (at some 8 km/h). Then the rider has to stop, dismount, and walk the heavy e-bike up the hill, which defeats the whole purpose of the pedal assisted e-bike. With proper gearing (I must mention the derailleur system) and a powerful motor, the rider can rotate the cranks pretty fast, the e-bike remains at a controllable speed (10-12 km/h), and climbing the steep incline is doable.

How so? By what margin? Because so far my experience with hills and dérailleurs has been "welp, gotta get off the bike, I didn't downshift enough and now I'm stuck", I'm kinda scared of them but maybe I'm just misunderstanding something?

The Internally Geared Hub has a certain gearing range, and the lowest gear a.k.a. "granny gear" typically does not fall within what we call "mountain gearing". With the lowest IGH gear and inadequate motor power you could be stopped during your climb, as I described above.

With a derailleur e-bike properly chosen for the purpose, the largest rear sprocket can be huge, and the chainring (front) very small. It means "mountain gearing" that gives you mechanical advantage on climbing (you pedal fast with reasonable effort, and the experience is as if the e-bike "lifted" you uphill). Necessary to mention, derailleur/chain system is very efficient, turning most of your leg & motor power into motion. IGH is far less efficient, and a significant portion of your & motor effort is lost to heat in the IGH.

A model e-MTB. It is intended to climb steep hills and safely descent. Not made for carrying the cargo for sure. The gearing here makes the climbing a breeze, giving the rider a huge mechanical advantage.

The only alternative to mountain gearing is getting an e-bike with a very powerful motor.

They make bikes to order?! Would that be, like, really expensive? Though I'm not sure @Ravi Kempaiah is available these days; they've been tagged a few times on this thread already. Unless I'm misunderstanding how notifications work?

@Ravi Kempaiah has answered. I'm sure he will be delighted if you write him a PM on the Forum!

Well, I don't have a strong attachment to on-bike cargo capacity. I'm entirely fine with a trailer, really. That would be fine, right?

A trailer would be fine. However, your typical mountain e-bike is not made for towing a trailer, and hauling a trailer uphill requires a significant motor power. Again, I am sure Zen Bikes can propose an e-bike with a very powerful motor and a big battery (including the belt drive with IGH) to make the task feasible.

Finally, I just want to mention the other most active participant of this thread seems to be clueless