The weakest link for me: the chargers

[tomjasz]

Worse, I find this "rule" to be more of an urban legend, at least as applied to bikes, than something backed up by evidence.

No! Just no. Find some of Ravi's posts on batteries with much information from a Canadian scientist/researcher. I can't remember the name, but he's on board with Ravi.

 

[harryS]

For you scientist types, here's the paper that studied the effects of charging.

(PDF) Modeling of Lithium-Ion Battery Degradation for Cell Life Assessment

PDF | Rechargeable lithium-ion batteries are promising candidates for building grid-level storage systems because of their high energy and power... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Let's look at one of the more famous charts from this paper. They show the loss in capacity for various discharge cycles, ranging from 100%-25% down to 75%-65%. Looks like people like me who do 100%-50% need to get onboard.

But look at the horizontal curve, At 1000 DST's, which is a discharge cycle, the 100-50% crowd is down to 91% capacity. The 85-25% advocates are at 93% at 1000 cycles.

It's like three years of riding 6 days a week to get 1000 cycles. That 2% difference isn't worth it to me.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

But look at the horizontal curve, At 1000 DST's, which is a discharge cycle, the 100-50% crowd is down to 91% capacity. The 85-25% advocates are at 93% at 1000 cycles.

It's like three years of riding 6 days a week to get 1000 cycles. That 2% difference isn't worth it to me.

The catch is in the Y-axis.
It is at 1C. Everything works super well at 1C and 20'C
But very few E-bike riders deplete their fully charged battery in 1hr. Most people do it 0.2C and at that point, the effects are a LOT different.
This is why you should look at several factors not just discharge at 1C and 20'C.

 

[Gionnirocket]

For you scientist types, here's the paper that studied the effects of charging.

(PDF) Modeling of Lithium-Ion Battery Degradation for Cell Life Assessment

PDF | Rechargeable lithium-ion batteries are promising candidates for building grid-level storage systems because of their high energy and power... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Let's look at one of the more famous charts from this paper. They show the loss in capacity for various discharge cycles, ranging from 100%-25% down to 75%-65%. Looks like people like me who do 100%-50% need to get onboard.
View attachment 121664But look at the horizontal curve, At 1000 DST's, which is a discharge cycle, the 100-50% crowd is down to 91% capacity. The 85-25% advocates are at 93% at 1000 cycles.

It's like three years of riding 6 days a week to get 1000 cycles. That 2% difference isn't worth it to me.

The larger portion of your batteries capacity that you use per outing will limit your choices here.
But someone like me that only uses 20 - 30% of my battery capacity on 90 percent of my rides... why would I not?

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Just plug it in. Too many people worry about battery percentages. Foooey. Charge it up and ride it till it dies. Then charge it up again.

I agree. Fooey! If you want to save money, there are so many other areas in your life where you can economize where it makes sense, and doesn't impact your overall enjoyment of life, but E-Bike battery life? Charge that sucker to 100% and ride it down to 70%, charge it back up to 100%, ride it until it dies!, charge it up again, ride it until it dies. Throw caution to the wind and have some unbridled fun for "Times winged chariot is hurrying near". You wanna save money? Cut back on your food, fast food, restaurants, sugary drinks, bourbon and bong-hits, streaming services, rent-boys and chardonnay, hookers and blow, and other such delights; but get out there and ride as fast or as far as you can. It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys, and you're getting exercise to boot!

"Best part of working out at the gym? When you're done. Best part of practicing Yoga? When you're done.
Best part about riding an E-Bike. When you on the E-bike!"
~David Lee Roth

 

[Gionnirocket]

I agree. Fooey! If you want to save money, there are so many other areas in your life where you can economize where it makes sense, and doesn't impact your overall enjoyment of life, but E-Bike battery life? Charge that sucker to 100% and ride it down to 70%, charge it back up to 100%, ride it until it dies!, charge it up again, ride it until it dies. Throw caution to the wind and have some unbridled fun for "Times winged chariot is hurrying near". You wanna save money? Cut back on your food, fast food, restaurants, sugary drinks, bourbon and bong-hits, streaming services, rent-boys and chardonnay, hookers and blow, and other such delights; but get out there and ride as fast or as far as you can. It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys, and you're getting exercise to boot!

"Best part of working out at the gym? When you're done. Best part of practicing Yoga? When you're done.
Best part about riding an E-Bike. When you on the E-bike!"
~David Lee Roth

I agree be wasteful even when there's no reason to be.. Just because.
We over buy and throw things away as we are so entitled to do so. We do this with just about everything in our lives, it should go double for ebikes.

 

[Roamers]

Although I don't have enough experience to know what my typical use will be, my perceptiion is that unless you regularly need all your battery at once it is irrelevant. If you ride 100-50, once you get to 80% you'll run 80 to 30 of new battery. If you regularly need all your battery, 100 to 25 still reduces capacity fastest.

 

[tomjasz]

Why charge to only 80% because, if you charge to 100%, the battery might degrade over time to hold less than its original full capacity?

While strictly anecdotal and limited to my experiences with the 12 or so batteries I've owned, the 80% batteries from 2015 are sagging under full throttle, but those I abused and just used were finished more than two years ago.

In 7 years of working in customer support, most were kits purchased with batteries. I saw the same experience with a significant number of customers.

We live in a world were science deniers are front and center, regardless of the PROVEN FACTS!

Samsung

Samsung doesn't mean they are the appropriate cells. Samsung produces 18650 cells for lower A demand devices and I've seen that as well. One of my earliest batteries was rated 10Ah but when it crapped out I found it was in reality 8Ah and used cells made for laptop computers. 2100Mah rather than 2600Mah.

And then there's the rewraps...

 

[Gionnirocket]

While strictly anecdotal and limited to my experiences with the 12 or so batteries I've owned, the 80% batteries from 2015 are sagging under full throttle, but those I abused and just used were finished more than two years ago.

In 7 years of working in customer support, most were kits purchased with batteries. I saw the same experience with a significant number of customers.

We live in a world were science deniers are front and center, regardless of the PROVEN FACTS!

Samsung doesn't mean they are the appropriate cells. Samsung produces 18650 cells for lower A demand devices and I've seen that as well. One of my earliest batteries was rated 10Ah but when it crapped out I found it was in reality 8Ah and used cells made for laptop computers. 2100Mah rather than 2600Mah.

And then there's the rewraps...

No I was referring to Samsung electronic devices with Li batteries. My new tablet gives me the option to always charge to 85%

 

[tomjasz]

No

Yes! Sorry brudder but I shouldn't have quoted Samsung from your post as my response wasn't directed towards you. Mea culpa! My bad!

 

[neilh]

95% of the e-bikes are manufactured in China with Chinese batteries so no matter what you do you will be really lucky to get 1-1/2 to 3 years out of the battery. the lithium cells from China are mostly crap. once you replace the cells with good cells like Sanyo, Samsung, LG, Panasonic (made in Japan or Korea only) preferably with individual cell protection then you should be concerned with charging them up to 80%. those Japanese batteries will last a very long time if charged to 80%.

 

[AHicks]

95% of the e-bikes are manufactured in China with Chinese batteries so no matter what you do you will be really lucky to get 1-1/2 to 3 years out of the battery. the lithium cells from China are mostly crap. once you replace the cells with good cells like Sanyo, Samsung, LG, Panasonic (made in Japan or Korea only) preferably with individual cell protection then you should be concerned with charging them up to 80%. those Japanese batteries will last a very long time if charged to 80%.

My personal experience with a battery that's been ridden hard since the fall of 2016, and is still VERY functional to this day, might be an exception, but it seems to be on par with other user's experiences as well. Batteries crapping out after 1.5-3 years would be pretty unusual, and if that were to happen, truth be told, my bet is they would have very likely been subject to abuse.

Further, while I agree that charging to 80% is a good plan for those not riding frequently, where the bike might be sitting for a few days between uses, bikes being ridden daily/frequently, are fine when charged to 100%

Bigger deal here would be the practice of over discharging, frequently riding to the point the power shuts down, or storing the bike with a fully discharged battery.

 

[tomjasz]

made in Japan or Korea only

Absolute BS. Please share the source of that supercilious and frankly ridiculous statement.