The Green Room

[Gordon71]

With Bezos, Branson, & Musk spending billions to get off this planet, I´m a little concerned
at what they know that we don´t!

Once we've finally trashed this planet we need to find another one to destroy.

 

[reed scott]

Yeah, it's like being in a war zone here in Los Angeles. I really hate this holiday. The need to set things on fire, add more smoke to the atmosphere at this particular moment in history, just seems like a harbinger of the devolution of our species.

Our dogs are feral in a very urban kind of way. They both have an attitude of, "Nah, gunfire and fireworks don't bother us, we're city dogs."

That bravado does not run too deep, however. I notice that they did follow us around a lot yesterday. And once when I went to pet the white one, he was trembling slightly. The blue one just stood on the edge of a ridge near our house, (on leash, of course, too many coyotes) and looked out at the mayhem he could see and hear, and barked at the horizon, occasionally looking back at me over his shoulder like, "How DARE they do that?! They have no right! Let me at 'em! I'll rip them to shreds!"

I know the feeling, little guy. I know the feeling.

I know where you live. I lived a couple miles West of you many years ago amongst the same canyons. I lost one of my dogs off a bluff there. I found her below and had to put her down with a broken spine. I follow you here. I wish I had had the adventuresome spirt you possess as I lived in those days. You keep doin what you are doin. God speed.

 

[Catalyzt]

I know where you live. I lived a couple miles West of you many years ago amongst the same canyons. I lost one of my dogs off a bluff there. I found her below and had to put her down with a broken spine. I follow you here. I wish I had had the adventuresome spirt you possess as I lived in those days. You keep doin what you are doin. God speed.

Thanks, man. I am so sorry about your little pal... it's so heartbreaking to lose them. Godspeed to her as well. And a good reminder, because I have good harnesses for both of my guys, but I'm not sure they are completely escape-proof. They are both surprisingly good climbers, even the older one, but if one of 'em freaks out and slips off the edge, I want to be able to drag them back up.

I think one of the things about anthropogenic climate change, overpopulation, and resource scarcity that is so frightening is the effect that it has on some folks psychologically. Hey, take any species you like-- rats, antelope, sharks, primates-- and put them in a confined space without enough fresh food and water, and what will happen? They will attack and kill each other, behave in ways that are senseless. I think that's what we're seeing now in our own species.

And everyone has a breaking point. I've seen people go over the edge, and I've seen them go right to the edge... like my little dog... and then come back. (Okay, not the greatest metaphor, but it was handy!) And I've come pretty close to the edge myself.

Just thinking about the work that lies ahead is, quite frankly, terrifying... generations of hard work, scarcity. My own belief is that God has challenged us to fix the mess that we've made; that turning over our will and our lives to a higher power does not abdicate our responsibility to care for others or ourselves. Our ancestors were willing to start great projects that they knew would not be finished in their own lifetimes. Somehow, we must find the same courage.

I remember once confiding to a minister that I wanted to be a vegetarian, but could not-- I just can't find another good way of metabolizing protein. He laughed and said, "Well, do you think you could eat less beef and pork?" (Beef is more of a problem for the environment, while pigs are highly intelligent animals.) And of course he was right. Doing something about a problem is always better than doing nothing-- not so we can feel great about ourselves, because I think that train left the station a long time ago! But from a practical point of view, of course it's better to buy ourselves and the planet more time.

I allow myself time and space for sadness, for the loss of the world that I grew up in.

But not for despair. I have no time or patience for it. Despair has nothing for me or my friends, family, and loved ones.

Despair may stalk us till the end of our days, but need never be our master. If God has a plan for us? Despair has no part of it.

 

[Art Deco]

Thanks, man. I am so sorry about your little pal... it's so heartbreaking to lose them. Godspeed to her as well. And a good reminder, because I have good harnesses for both of my guys, but I'm not sure they are completely escape-proof. They are both surprisingly good climbers, even the older one, but if one of 'em freaks out and slips off the edge, I want to be able to drag them back up.

I think one of the things about anthropogenic climate change, overpopulation, and resource scarcity that is so frightening is the effect that it has on some folks psychologically. Hey, take any species you like-- rats, antelope, sharks, primates-- and put them in a confined space without enough fresh food and water, and what will happen? They will attack and kill each other, behave in ways that are senseless. I think that's what we're seeing now in our own species.

And everyone has a breaking point. I've seen people go over the edge, and I've seen them go right to the edge... like my little dog... and then come back. (Okay, not the greatest metaphor, but it was handy!) And I've come pretty close to the edge myself.

Just thinking about the work that lies ahead is, quite frankly, terrifying... generations of hard work, scarcity. My own belief is that God has challenged us to fix the mess that we've made; that turning over our will and our lives to a higher power does not abdicate our responsibility to care for others or ourselves. Our ancestors were willing to start great projects that they knew would not be finished in their own lifetimes. Somehow, we must find the same courage.

I remember once confiding to a minister that I wanted to be a vegetarian, but could not-- I just can't find another good way of metabolizing protein. He laughed and said, "Well, do you think you could eat less beef and pork?" (Beef is more of a problem for the environment, while pigs are highly intelligent animals.) And of course he was right. Doing something about a problem is always better than doing nothing-- not so we can feel great about ourselves, because I think that train left the station a long time ago! But from a practical point of view, of course it's better to buy ourselves and the planet more time.

I allow myself time and space for sadness, for the loss of the world that I grew up in.

But not for despair. I have no time or patience for it. Despair has nothing for me or my friends, family, and loved ones.

Despair may stalk us till the end of our days, but need never be our master. If God has a plan for us? Despair has no part of it.

I don't think that despair is going to do any of us much good. A bit of denial, anger, grief, etc. we can and will work through. The changes that need to happen will happen, and usually at the last possible moment ... we can do "harm reduction" and such, but big oscillations in extream weather, in essential supply chains like food and energy, in finance and so on means lots of 'rolling with the punches'. That's really what this thread is about. Making our little part of the world a bit stronger and more resilient.

 

[Mulezen]

Now where were we on the Horgan economy? NYT had a piece recently…calling it an important small piece of the climate solution…but it has to get cheaper (Better catalysts being tested with some success). I didn’t know you can actually drill for it with one company actually specializing in it.

 

[Art Deco]

Now where were we on the Horgan economy? NYT had a piece recently…calling it an important small piece of the climate solution…but it has to get cheaper (Better catalysts being tested with some success). I didn’t know you can actually drill for it with one company actually specializing in it.

Horgan ? Hydrogen?

 

[Art Deco]

If hydrogen, this is a good overview. TLDR version It is a niche market .

A Concise History of the Concept of "Hydrogen Economy"

thehydrogenskeptics.blogspot.com

 

[Art Deco]

I don't believe we have discussed population in this thread, and since population is a function of births and deaths, and environmental impact is a function of population and affluence, it's the really important driver.
And it's one place that the the early projections like LTG were not well implemented. There's a lot more to birth rates then just income, or 1st world vs. 3ed world countries ( whatever they call those today), or even child mortality rates.
Even within India the birth rate varies...

Uttar Pradesh bill: The myth of India's population explosion

India's most populous state has a contentious plan for curbing population growth. But is it necessary?

www.bbc.com

 

[Gordon71]

I don't believe we have discussed population in this thread, and since population is a function of births and deaths, and environmental impact is a function of population and affluence, it's the really important driver.
And it's one place that the the early projections like LTG were not well implemented. There's a lot more to birth rates then just income, or 1st world vs. 3ed world countries ( whatever they call those today), or even child mortality rates.
Even within India the birth rate varies...

Uttar Pradesh bill: The myth of India's population explosion

India's most populous state has a contentious plan for curbing population growth. But is it necessary?

www.bbc.com

I remember back in the 70's when we talked about the need to achieve 0 population growth in order to protect the environment. Didn't happen and look where we are now.

 

[Art Deco]

It's certainly not as simple as a choice between 10 billion poor people or 1 billion wealthy people, though that is often how it's presented...especially to the very rich and to those who attend conferences .
A country needs a mixture of younger and older people .
The article above said that in 19 out of India's 22 provinces , births are currently below replacement, but population is still increasing overall. .

 

[DaveMatthews]

That's delusional. The tribulation will solve those issues in 7 shortened years . Maybe you can donate yourself for Crisper research

Nobody wants your personal delusions either, Barry

 

[Catalyzt]

I remember back in the 70's when we talked about the need to achieve 0 population growth in order to protect the environment. Didn't happen and look where we are now.

Exactly. Most of my (upper middle class) classmates in college committed to no more than two kids, many to one or none.

It was considered gross to have more than two children, and it wasn't the kind of thing we even debated. Just seemed totally obvious, particularly as members of one of the most privileged nations. It was sort of like voting: You don't get to complain about politics if you don't vote, you can't complain about the environment if you have more than two kids.

Many of my classmates in grad school, who were a lot younger, still made the same commitment for the same reasons, but it didn't seem to be as automatic-- there were more outliers who had larger families. Not that we were models of social responsibility in college, of course-- we saw nothing wrong with drinking and driving, drinking while driving, and many other irresponsible and stupid things that endangered others.

Another odd thing: Everyone used barrier methods of contraception, with very near 100% success. The idea of suggesting that your girlfriend or wife would take birth control pills was considered barbaric and misogynistic among my friends by 1977 or so... a few women insisted on trying them, but the pills had such terrible side effects that we learned to avoid them like bad acid. I know the pills are supposed to be better now, but they seem to be the default method of birth control, and it seems like a lot of women still report serious side effects.

The message I remember getting in sex ed was that the most responsible thing to do was to switch off between using condoms and diaphragms-- 50/50 responsibility-- and we were taught exactly how to use them, with precise anatomical detail, and that if we did so, we could approach the success rate of oral contraceptives. Again, this just seemed to work-- there were a lot of people having sex, but very few unwanted pregnancies.

The point here is, again, not that we were perfect or even particularly virtuous, just that our idea of what's "normal" has changed a lot, and not in the most adaptive way.

 

[Gordon71]

It's certainly not as simple as a choice between 10 billion poor people or 1 billion wealthy people, though that is often how it's presented...especially to the very rich and to those who attend conferences .
A country needs a mixture of younger and older people .
The article above said that in 19 out of India's 22 provinces , births are currently below replacement, but population is still increasing overall. .

If the birth rate is lower than the death rate in 19 out of 22 provinces but population is still increasing those other 3 must be procreating like crazy or lots of people are moving to India.

 

[Art Deco]

If the birth rate is lower than the death rate in 19 out of 22 provinces but population is still increasing those other 3 must be procreating like crazy or lots of people are moving to India.

19 out of 22 Reporting (my bad) and the most populous provinces are not reporting yet. But still, most of the Indian land mass or territory is 1. Young and 2. Below replacement .
IDK about net migration, but there's bound to be a lot of movement .

 

[PatriciaK]

The late Hans Rosling wrote a very interesting book, "Factfulness", in which he discussed several common myths people erroneously believe about the world. Population growth was among them. According to Rosling, world population is going to level off (stop growing) at around 12 billion people. And, among the best ways to achieve less growth faster is to educate women. His ideas are quite interesting, and backed up with data and science.

His work continues to be carried out by the Gapminder organization, found here: https://www.gapminder.org/
Try going there and testing you own perceptions VS data-driven facts - it was a bit surprising for me .

Many of the critical issues we face today are addressed there, but the most interesting aspect for me is how wrong we are in so much of our thinking and assessment, and WHY that occurs.

I don't agree with everything they propose, but it's certainly thought- provoking in a good way ! Highly recommend both the book and the website.

 

[Art Deco]

The late Hans Rosling wrote a very interesting book, "Factfulness", in which he discussed several common myths people erroneously believe about the world. Population growth was among them. According to Rosling, world population is going to level off (stop growing) at around 12 billion people. And, among the best ways to achieve less growth faster is to educate women. His ideas are quite interesting, and backed up with data and science.

His work continues to be carried out by the Gapminder organization, found here: https://www.gapminder.org/

Many of the critical issues we face today are addressed there, but the most interesting aspect for me is how wrong we are in so much of our thinking and assessment, and WHY that occurs.

I don't agree with everything they propose, but it's certainly thought- provoking in a good way ! Highly recommend both the book and the website.

I have not read it. But Bill Gates susposidly will buy a copy for any college student that wants one.

 

[PatriciaK]

I have not read it. But Bill Gates susposidly will buy a copy for any college student that wants one.

I wouldn't let Bill Gates' limited involvement stop me from checking it out . Despite what I think of Gates, the man (it's not good), the Gates foundation HAS done some very good and effective work.

 

[Art Deco]

I wouldn't let Bill Gates' limited involvement stop me from checking it out . Despite what I think of Gates, the man (it's not good), the Gates foundation HAS done some very good and effective work.

The good work was Melinda not Bill, IIRC. But Bill is a genius and can do amazing things when he wants to.

 

[Cramer Long]

I have not read it. But Bill Gates susposidly will buy a copy for any college student that wants one.

The late Hans Rosling wrote a very interesting book, "Factfulness", in which he discussed several common myths people erroneously believe about the world. Population growth was among them. According to Rosling, world population is going to level off (stop growing) at around 12 billion people. And, among the best ways to achieve less growth faster is to educate women. His ideas are quite interesting, and backed up with data and science.

His work continues to be carried out by the Gapminder organization, found here: https://www.gapminder.org/
Try going there and testing you own perceptions VS data-driven facts - it was a bit surprising for me .

Many of the critical issues we face today are addressed there, but the most interesting aspect for me is how wrong we are in so much of our thinking and assessment, and WHY that occurs.

I don't agree with everything they propose, but it's certainly thought- provoking in a good way ! Highly recommend both the book and the website.

Aren't you guys thankful. ?? You want less population . It's coming . Including everything and everyone that isn't accountable for themselves . Kids /Animals . All going to vanish : Just like in the Movies Only Nichlos Cage and Batman won't save the Day , Neither will the Avengers

 

[DaveMatthews]

My Delusions ?? Did you read Gordon's post ?? You guys are something else . You are Godless . Yet you have no issues with preventing someone from their God given right to life ? It should be the otherway if anything . You believe this is your only life . But you're calling me delusional when I call someone out for saying we need to control the population ??? What a joke . Look at any country where people are starving . They are all Socialist Communist Countries . Now quit calling me by someone elses name . Grow up . It's like you have a hard on for life itself .

You are without question welcome to believe whatever you want. All I'm asking is that you leave the rest of us out of it.
Thanks... Barry.