Swapping to an IGH on the CCS?

[reluctantsuburban]

Hey all,

After poking around a bit, the Juiced CCS (maybe the CCX if I can talk my wife into the price difference) seems like a really great fit for me. I have a mostly flat, 20 mile one way commute, and am a 6'1", 165 lb biker. Looking to switch from doing a partial commute on an urban commuter style and taking the train into town to doing all on the ebike. The speed and accessories of the CCS seem like the best combo for the price and my needs.

The one thing I can't seem to get over, though, is that I would strongly prefer an IGH set up. My current bike has one, and for city commuting and reduced maintenance, I prefer an IGH over a rear derailleur. My alternative to the CCS if I do stick to IGH seems to be DIYing a front hub, probably a Jubilee 8 from bikesdirect, with something from Grin.

Can anyone tell me (as someone who is a novice biker):

1. Should I should stick to my preference for IGH?
2. Do IGH/gearing ratios in general matter when talking about ebikes? (my test ride made the gears feel somewhat of a secondary concern)
3. Is the CCS is so great I should just get over myself?

 

[Commuter]

So, in order to do an internal geared hub (IGH), you'd have to put a motor on the front, completely getting rid of the benefit of the torque and cadence sensors. You might as well build your own from scratch instead. There's no way to do an IGH with a rear hub motor today.

 

[AHicks]

So, in order to do an internal geared hub (IGH), you'd have to put a motor on the front, completely getting rid of the benefit of the torque and cadence sensors. You might as well build your own from scratch instead. There's no way to do an IGH with a rear hub motor today.

If I'm understanding you correctly (no way to do an IGH with a rear hub motor today) I'd have to beg to differ. Rad is offering them in several very successful models - like the Rover for instance.

 

[Commuter]

If I'm understanding you correctly (no way to do an IGH with a rear hub motor today) I'd have to beg to differ. Rad is offering them in several very successful models - like the Rover for instance.

Are you talking about an internally geared hub motor, which Juiced (and Rad) already has, or an internally geared shifter, which neither has?

 

[Nova Haibike]

They are more expensive and perhaps more than you want to spend, but I would look at Evelo bikes instead, which come stock with mid-drives and IGH. Some Riese & Müller bikes as well, but those are even more.

 

[AHicks]

Are you talking about an internally geared hub motor, which Juiced (and Rad) already has, or an internally geared shifter, which neither has?

Sorry, I didn't fully understand the synonym "IGH" you used. I took it as simply Internally Geared Hub. Didn't have a clue there was a shifter involved. Learn something new every day!

 

[reluctantsuburban]

So, in order to do an internal geared hub (IGH), you'd have to put a motor on the front, completely getting rid of the benefit of the torque and cadence sensors. You might as well build your own from scratch instead. There's no way to do an IGH with a rear hub motor today.

Yeah, sorry for the confusing title. I started this post with the thought that I could swap to an IGH. Then, I realized the CCS has a rear hub, which would make that incompatible.

Can you not get a torque sensor to work with a front hub? I thought you could install a torque sensor in the bottom bracket? Just curious.

Regardless, even though my post's title is now a little misleading, could anyone here comment on what gear range they use on the CCS, and if they think my preference for IGH is something I should stick to or if the CCS is worth it without? My brief test ride makes me think that gearing on an ebike may not be as important, so I'm wondering if I'm overplaying my preference for IGH.

Thanks!

 

[AlanDB]

I have come to love the Shimano Nexus 8 IGH on my Gazelle Arroyo. There are times I wish this mid-drive bike (Bosch Performance Line) had a throttle, but I would not give up the IGH shifter to get a throttle.

 

[reluctantsuburban]

I have come to love the Shimano Nexus 8 IGH on my Gazelle Arroyo. There are times I wish this mid-drive bike (Bosch Performance Line) had a throttle, but I would not give up the IGH shifter to get a throttle.

Thanks for weighing in, Alan! What is the top speed on the Arroyo? Do you find that the Nexus 8 provides a high enough gear ratio to pedal along even at the upper levels of PAS?

Also, forgive my ignorance, but could you tell me why a throttle is incompatible with an IGH? Just because you don't want to shift under that kind of load?

 

[Nova Haibike]

why a throttle is incompatible with an IGH?

A throttle is not incompatible with an IGH. The issue is that most mid-drive motors (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, Yamaha) do not come with throttles, nor do they offer a throttle as an aftermarket upgrade.

 

[AlanDB]

Arroyo is a class 1, so 20 MPH, which at my age is appropriate. The high gear is about right for that speed. When I first switched from my Giant 24 speed conventional bike to the Arroyo, I missed those higher gears as I tended to ride Giant with lower cadence and used more leg muscle. Now that I am used to the Arroyo, I seldom even use the 8th gear and can easily pedal up to 20 mph in gear 7.

The main thing I like is the ease of changing gears quickly (once you get used to it). When the grade changes suddenly, I can shift 3 or 4 gears at once with a quick twist of the shifter. And I can do it by pausing my pedaling for only a split second. Also, I can't count the number of times on my Giant bike that I forgot to downshift before stopping, making it very awkward to start up again, sometimes having to ride back down a hill to get it in the right gear. With the IGH, that is no longer a problem ... just shift to first gear while stopped.

 

[Dunbar]

For me personally I prefer trigger shifters because of my road bike background and the fact that I shift a lot. I’ve never really cared for twist shifters (slower and less precise IME.) I upgraded my Cross Current to a Deore shifter, 10sp rear derailleur the slicker polymer coated Shimano shift cable. Shifting is rapid and precise now. I can shift up or down 3 gears at a time. I understand the inconvenience of taking your bike to the shop to get the cables replaced or shifting adjusted. However, I haven’t touched my derailleur and indexing in 2 years and the bike still shifts fine.The CCX has the feature where you pedal and hold the throttle from a stop and it’s going to give you full power. So shifting down as you come to a stop is less of a necessity.

 

[AlanDB]

A throttle is not incompatible with an IGH. The issue is that most mid-drive motors (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, Yamaha) do not come with throttles, nor do they offer a throttle as an aftermarket upgrade.

Yes, I understand that ... my comment was meant to confirm that IGH is not compatible with rear hubs and mid drives don't typically have a throttle ... so finding an ebike with both a throttle and an IGH shifter would be a challenge. There may be a few with that combination, but I never found one when I was shopping.

 

[AlanDB]

...The CCX has the feature where you pedal and hold the throttle from a stop and it’s going to give you full power. So shifting down as you come to a stop is less of a necessity.

Excellent point, and definitely an advantage of having a throttle to assist in the downshifting at startup.

 

[Nova Haibike]

inding an ebike with both a throttle and an IGH shifter would be a challenge. There may be a few with that combination, but I never found one when I was shopping.

The Evelo brand I mentioned in post #5 have Bafang mid-drives w/throttles, and NuVinci IGH.

 

[reluctantsuburban]

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone.

@AlanDB, my current commuter is a 3 speed IGH, and I love it for the reasons you said, in particular that in my urban context I often have to stop quickly. I love being able to shift at a stop. I have been interested in a class 3, so I do worry a bit that something like the Nexus 8 won't quite provide enough power at the top end to pedal along.

@Nova Haibike Thanks for that info--makes sense.

I have considered a DIY build with a front hub, considering it would allow for an IGH and I have a very flat commute, but have heard mixed feedback on the idea.

@Dunbar Maybe I just haven't experienced a high enough quality shifter. I only recently got into biking (have been commuting daily since January), and the first bike that I rode was a Craigslist find that was very cheap. The whole experience with trying to index the chain myself at home and multiple issues shifting turned me off. But maybe with quality components it wouldn't be an issue; sounds like that has been the case for you! Are you riding the CC, or CCS? There is a used CC on sale near me for $1000, I wonder if you have thoughts on whether it looks like a good deal? (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Again, thanks!

 

[AlanDB]

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone.

@AlanDB, my current commuter is a 3 speed IGH, and I love it for the reasons you said, in particular that in my urban context I often have to stop quickly. I love being able to shift at a stop. I have been interested in a class 3, so I do worry a bit that something like the Nexus 8 won't quite provide enough power at the top end to pedal along.

I would agree the Nexus 8 would probably not have adequate gearing for higher speeds. I think Shimano does make an 11 speed IGH (the Alfine line?), so that may be more in line with what you are looking for. I am not sure what brands/models of ebikes (if any) use that system though. If you are considering a custom build with a front hub motor, it may be something to look into.

 

[reluctantsuburban]

I would agree the Nexus 8 would probably not have adequate gearing for higher speeds. I think Shimano does make an 11 speed IGH (the Alfine line?), so that may be more in line with what you are looking for. I am not sure what brands/models of ebikes (if any) use that system though. If you are considering a custom build with a front hub motor, it may be something to look into.

Thanks for the tip. I've seen the Alfine referenced in a few build guides, but once I started reading Sheldon Brown on gearing ratios it started to go over my head pretty quickly. I may be out of my depth in DIY

 

[indianajo]

I bought a strumey-archer S80 IGH which goes from 1.0 ratio low to 3.5 ratio speed 8. The 3.5 is rediculously high for human pedaling, and might be appropriate for a powered bike. I had to use mine all the time with the 15 tooth mountain bike front sprocket. However, despite my years of positive experience with the 3 speed sturmey archer hub, the new SA hubs have a shifter that tends to pop the cable link off the shifter ring and whang into unrideable speed 8. About every block at the end when I disposed of it. The 5 speed Sturmey archer IGH sold with a rear motor appears to have the same shifter setup, which strikes me as making it unsuitable for use or purchase.
I converted a 10 speed Huffy Savannah bike with an unpurchaseable 5 speed sprocket cluster, with a front hub motor. Although quality problems kept my range down to 10-13 miles, there was nothing I found wrong with the drive setup. I did load the front tire down with the battery, which I mounted over the front wheel on aluminum struts.
The shimano alfine 8 speed hub has both reduction ratios, and speedup ratios. As such it is not really suitable for high speed use unless maybe with a 52 tooth or higher front sprocket.
With reference to Dunbar's preference for trigger shifters, when Shimano moved to all thumb use on the 7 speed derailleur product, my thumb joint developed a 8 cm diameter 1 cm thick cyst over it, with attendant pain. I ride about 2000 miles a year. So I bought the Sturmey Archer S80 IGH mainly to acquire the twist shifter, which caused my thumb cyst to reduce to 2 cm diameter. The pain is reduced. After the rideability problems of the S80, I kept the SturmeyArcher twist shifter when I reinstalled the 7 speed shimano derailleur setup, which seemed to work okay although not usually achieving all 7 speeds.

 

[reluctantsuburban]

I bought a strumey-archer S80 IGH which goes from 1.0 ratio low to 3.5 ratio speed 8. The 3.5 is rediculously high for human pedaling, and might be appropriate for a powered bike. However, despite my years of positive experience with the 3 speed sturmey archer hub, the new hubs have a shifter that tends to pop the cable link off the shifter ring and whang into speed 8. About every block at the end when I disposed of it. The 5 speed Sturmey archer IGH sold with a rear motor appears to have the same shifter setup, which strikes me as making it unsuitable for use or purchase.
I converted a 10 speed Huffy Savannah bike with an unpurchaseable 5 speed sprocket cluster, with a front hub. Although quality problems kept my range down to 10-13 miles, there was nothing I found wrong with the drive setup. I did load the front tire down with the battery, which I mounted over the front wheel on aluminum struts.

Thanks for your feedback @indianajo. Good to know it's possible to do the front hub and IGH, but bummer about the Sturmey Archer.