Stock PAS Settings

[Widgets]

I have been researching which ebike was the best fit for me. The RAD offerings appeal to me, and I have been debating the mradmini step thru vs the radcity step thru. Yesterday, I visited a somewhat local ebike rental shop (Endless Summer in Sarasota, FL) for some test rides of the two and a radrover step thru added to the mix.

I decided that I like the ride of the radcity step over the radmini step thru enough to offset the loss of the convenience factor of not being able to fold. The radmini step thru while folded fits easily into the back of my Prius. The radcity step thru can fit if I take off the front wheel. I am not keen on putting a hitch on the Prius, but I am not against it.

I did not really feel much of an improvement switching from the radcity step thru to the rad rover step thru. If anything, there was a bit of a let down. All three ebikes were rideable in PAS 0, at least for short distances in the fairly level ground of FL, both on pavement, sidewalks, and grass fields. Stepping up to PAS 1, the radcity step thru gave a more noticeable boost than the other two. Paying closer attention to the display, the radcity step thru was giving 59-61 watts boost, while the radrover step thru was only giving 31-33 watts boost. I only remember these readings, but I think the PAS 2 and 3 levels were also better for the radcity step thru. I know the radcity step thru was v3, but I did not pay much attention to the version of the radrover step thru.

From what I have read, the PAS levels are factory settings in the controller and not user adjustable. It seems strange for the big difference in the factory settings, unless the radrover step thru was a previous generation.

Can someone with these three models chime in with more details on the boot wattage at the different PAS levels and the version of your ebike.

Thanks all.

 

[RangerDave]

My 2019 City ST (V2) wattage is about -

PAS1 - 60 watts
PAS2 - 175 watts
PAS3 - 350 watts
PAS4 - 550 watts
PAS5 - 750 watts

I’ve always wondered a bit if the DD motor and geared motor were fed the same wattage at the various PAS settings or not.

RangerDave

 

[AHicks]

Pretty surprised you found the direct drive City peppier that the others. I always thought of mine as gutless pretty much, but then again I'm very likely twice your weight (315) and I'm frequently in rolling coastal hills, some of which are pretty good size.

Purchased in 2017, it wasn't until I installed an aftermarket controller and a gear driven rear hub that I became happy with the available performance from my City.

My understanding of the Rover and the Mini, both gear driven rear hub designs, was that they have considerably better (peppier/sportier) low speed performance. I'm not real sure this would be evident at low settings on level sidewalk, but that performance would be more likely to be noticed on grass - especially when starting from a stop.

You are correct in that the stock controllers are what they are, until you go aftermarket, which are adjustable, and a move done frequently on the RAD bikes.

 

[Widgets]

Pretty surprised you found the direct drive City peppier that the others. I always thought of mine as gutless pretty much, but then again I'm very likely twice your weight (315) and I'm frequently in rolling coastal hills, some of which are pretty good size.

My observation was that on PAS 1 the City ST was giving more boost than the Rover ST. 60 watts vs 30 watts as reported by the display. So, I felt that 60 watts assist from the City ST was more boost than 30 watts from the Rover ST.

I am looking at an ebike for exercise, recreation, and to replace some car trips. My test rides all started on PAS 0 to see how they would handle without power. I was pleasantly surprised to see that all three models were quite usable without power on flat pavement and grass. I had read they were unusable, but that must have been in hilly terrain. It was the transition from PAS 0 to PAS 1 where the City ST was better, but only due to the factory set PAS 1 wattage.

I understand that the geared rear hubs are better at lower speeds and the direct drive rear hubs are better at high speeds (if you can keep them at higher speeds. I don't expect to be racing with these bikes, so I was thinking the geared rear hubs of the Mini ST or the Rover ST would fit me best, but I am now leaning towards the City ST. From the factory it has more options to adjust the fit, and I can always upgrade if I find I outgrow the direct drive hub.

Hopefully someone with a stock Rover ST will share their PAS wattage settings. More of a curiosity, as the Rover ST is too large for my Prius.

 

[AHicks]

If you didn't notice the extra drag involved with riding the City set at PAS 0, you very likely didn't make it to 10mph. That extra drag on the direct drive hub powered bikes is one of the biggest downsides when riding PAS 0 with one of them. The geared rear hub bikes have built in clutches for just that reason. In practice, you will ride in PAS 0 only rarely.

Many newbies get all caught up/concerned about the ability to get some exercise on their new e-bike (my wife included!). 99.999% find that's a complete non event. I will guarantee that you will get all the exercise you want, and then some, with about any bike you pick.....

The practical difference between 60 and 30 watts on the display is negligible.

 

[Widgets]

If you didn't notice the extra drag involved with riding the City set at PAS 0, you very likely didn't make it to 10mph. That extra drag on the direct drive hub powered bikes is one of the biggest downsides when riding PAS 0 with one of them. The geared rear hub bikes have built in clutches for just that reason. In practice, you will ride in PAS 0 only rarely.

I was not paying close attention to my speed while in PAS 0, so I probably was not going very fast. I was trying several different things during the rides. From comments on the forum I was under the impression that the bike is totally unusable in PAS 0. I have no plans to ride in PAS 0. I was considering the possibility of needing to get the get the bike home with no power due to some failure. In this limp home scenario I feel I can reasonably remake it home. From Court’s video review, I see the drag even at low speed manual spinning of the tire, but I expect that the drag is proportional to the speed ant 10mph may be the tipping point where there is significant drag.

Many newbies get all caught up/concerned about the ability to get some exercise on their new e-bike (my wife included!). 99.999% find that's a complete non event. I will guarantee that you will get all the exercise you want, and then some, with about any bike you pick.....

Agreed. From the test rides this weekend I see that at any PAS level you are expending some effort and getting benefit from it. Across the three bikes, I had about 2 hours of riding; and my fitness band showed the aerobic workout across all PAS levels. Even cheating with the throttle showed some benefit over passive sitting.

The practical difference between 60 and 30 watts on the display is negligible.

This is entirely dependent upon the situation. The significance of the boost is dependent upon the physical effort being performed by the rider. If I am just casually starting out in low gear in PAS 1 without trying to stand on it, the boost is a larger percentage of the total power and 60 vs 30 can be huge. At higher exertion levels the difference between 60 and 30 is much less significant.

On my test drive, I was not paying attention to the wattage until I noticed the difference between the City ST and the Rover ST in that casual start scenario. I actually took the City ST out for another spin because I had no idea what the boost was.

The larger boost of the City ST at PAS 0 gives the impression of more power and responsiveness, which is contrary to the reports I have seen. There are differences in riding styles, differences in riding terrain, differences in rider expectations. There are also possible differences in factory controller settings. Did Rad setup the two bikes differently? Did Rad make generational changes to the settings based upon customer feedback? That is why I am asking for info on the PAS settings. I want to help understand my observations vs the reports of others.

 

[AHicks]

You're putting too much weight on these wattage readings IMHO.

Even so, consider for instance, that possibly the gear driven bike was running with more efficiency and required only half the power to get it rolling when compared to the direct dive? Actual power required to get a car with manual shift accelerating lightly from a stop in first gear, vs. the same car accelerating from a stop in 4th or 5th gear? The 4th or 5th gear scenario is going to take WAY more power no? And provide gutless acceleration doing that?

The RAD controllers are interchangeable to my knowledge.

I had to pedal my direct drive City home after a power failure early on. Not a situation I want to repeat any time soon - and that was only a mile or so. Even at low speeds, it's like you're pulling an anchor....

 

[Widgets]

I only looked at the wattage outputs after I noticed the difference in the boost applied at low speeds. I am trying to understand why my observations differ from what has been reported by so many. I 100% trust my observations. I purposely did the PAS 0 testing first, so the power assisted riding would not impact my observations.

I appreciate your perspective, and after I have gotten accustomed to riding with the power boost, I may adopt that same perspective. For now, I really would like to hear from folks with stock setups to see if there was a change in the settings. A generational change in the settings would help explain my observations vs what has been reported.

That said, I have decided to get the City ST. The Rover ST is a bit to big for my transport situation, and does not offer the style or adjustability that the City ST has. I think I would be better off taking the City ST and possibly upgrading the power, vs taking the Rover ST and immediately wanting to turn it into more of a City ST. Now, if Rad had a City ST with a geared rear hub...

 

[AHicks]

I get it. There are a LOT of people that really like their RAD City's.

And the approach to changing to suit after riding for a bit is a great one.

Best of luck, and welcome to e-bikes!

 

[Widgets]

I'm not sure how to link to other threads, but I found this discussion in the "Rad Power Bikes in General" thread back on 3 May 2029

#38

At PAS 1 I see 31 watts (that was with a fully charged new battery, though I haven't used PAS 1 in months). The walk mode actually delivers more than this, about 60W. I've used it to scoot the bike up the stairs when the elevator went out in my building. PAS 2, I see 122W with a fresh charge, PAS 3 I see 338-362W. I'm very happy with my 2019 radrover, just saying there is room for improvement, since this is just software.

I do not know if the 2020 model has these same PAS settings.

#39

Wow. With that info, it's pretty easy to see you're right. It's poorly (or possibly incorrectly?) written software. PAS 1 is way low, and a big hole between 2 and 3.

I can't see a Rover, with it's big fat tires, ever doing well on 65 watts. What a waste. Have you checked with RAD to see if that's correct? Can't help but wonder if that controller isn't set up for smaller wheels/tires and incorrectly installed on your Rover?

That would make me nuts as well. That would be as good an excuse as any for the purchase of one of Bolton's performance kits here. That would allow you to mess with the programming that starts out WAY better than that available from RAD..... AND allow you full use of whatever power is available from the battery (about 1500 watts in my experience) for a big jump in available performance if that's of any interest. -Al

This matches my observation of the Rover ST PAS 1 set to 31 watts, and my assessment of poor performance. It is just a settings issue on the version of the Rover ST that cripples it at the lower PAS levels.

 

[JohnJohn]

I get it. There are a LOT of people that really like their RAD City's.

Yeah that's me. I've had about 30 or 40 bikes in my life and I love the City ST.

The mile slog home in PAS 0 made me lol remembering the day last year I was out without my repair kit and ran over a construction staple someone left on the road and had to walk home 10 kilometres in the dark at night. Biggest L on my forehead in a long time. Live and learn, I don't go anywhere without a tube and tools now.