Spare battery costs

[ROB12013]

Hi, I just wanted to make everyone aware that there are cheaper alternatives out there when it comes to batteries or components.
I have a Haibike sduro cross with a 400wh battery and wanted a spare for longer journeys. At £849 (approx $1,100) for the official Yamaha 500wh battery I thought this was very expensive.
After much searching I've managed to find an aftermarket 500wh one from allbateries.co.uk for £388 ($507) which is a huge saving. I also sourced the Haibike stickers to complete the look.
Hopefully more companies will start to offer aftermarket parts.

 

[rich c]

Just be aware, cheaper is likely not equal. There are generic cells and name brand. They can't reduce the cost of a battery pack by half merely because they don't say Bosch or Yamaha on the plastic cover. There is also the battery management system to contend with. Who knows if the cheap packs even have one? You get what you pay for. $500 over 3-4 years is not worth taking a chance to me.

 

[ROB12013]

Just be aware, cheaper is likely not equal. There are generic cells and name brand. They can't reduce the cost of a battery pack by half merely because they don't say Bosch or Yamaha on the plastic cover. There is also the battery management system to contend with. Who knows if the cheap packs even have one? You get what you pay for. $500 over 3-4 years is not worth taking a chance to me.

Yes you could be right - only time will tell but I don't think they reduce the cost by half per se - more likely that the original price is over inflated in the first place.
This aftermarket battery uses Samsung cells by the way.

 

[tomjasz]

While as a DIY guy I don't hesitate to save dollars on battery purchases. I don't think any open seller will ship without a BMS. But there surely are some low-quality boards being used. At the very least I'd insist on brand name cells and details on the BMS function. ROB12013, all I can find on the battery site is the brand "NX". That's not a Samsung battery?!?!

 

[tomjasz]

EEK! Found a spec sheet. They use Samsung 20Q, a 2000mAh cell. Meh! Other packs are using typical cobalt cells, best suited for laptop use.

 

[rich c]

Yes you could be right - only time will tell but I don't think they reduce the cost by half per se - more likely that the original price is over inflated in the first place.
This aftermarket battery uses Samsung cells by the way.

You're right. There would certainly be a different price structure between a bicycle company and a direct importer of foreign knockoffs that only have an office and a warehouse.

 

[ROB12013]

Have you got shares in Yamaha, you seem a tad defensive. ?
Big companies are very often greedy when they have the market cornered - it's these aftermarket companies that help drive the cost down - helping us the buyers.

 

[indianajo]

When it comes to batteries there is a lot of **** out there at the low end of the price range. star ratings on amazon or ebay don't mean anything, almost nobody full load tests their battery when they first get it.
I bought a "15 AH 48 v " battery from btrbattery of LA via amazon for $300. it charged up from 52 to 58 v in 30 minutes with a 2.5 amp charger (meaning low capacity) and went to 9 v after 7 miles of 50-100 w draw. I got my money back. It did have a battery management system, where only 1 of the 14 stacks was showing >50 v after charge. It allegedly had samsung LIfepo4 cells. I haven't cut it apart to verify.
I bought a "15 AH 48 v" battery from sun-ebike via an LA warehouse on e-bay for $320. My bike continued to have failures at the 10 to 13 miles point, which I thought was the motor or controller. actually, when I loaded the battery down to 3.5 amps (200 w) the voltage collapsed to 18. so it had a current limit somewhere around 100 watts. the specification for max discharge is 50 a or about 2500 w. I didn't devise this test until over 18 months after I bought the battery, as I had to haul it home from my summer camp to my electronics table on a bicycle. I didn't apply for a refund. It allegedly was built of samsung LIfePo4 cells, I haven't cut it apart to verify. I prefered LifePo4 because it is allegedly non-flammabile if punctured, which a deer antler might do on the front.
this month I've bought a $630 17.5 ah 48 v lithium ion battery from Luna. I requires a 54.6 v charger, which I am building and am waiting for the charge connector to come in from out of state. after charging, I'll test it at 3.5 a too see how long it takes to go to 56 to 44 v. I don't know who the dealer with the reputation of Luna is in the UK.

 

[ROB12013]

EEK! Found a spec sheet. They use Samsung 20Q, a 2000mAh cell. Meh! Other packs are using typical cobalt cells, best suited for laptop use.

This Yamaha 36V 13Ah type battery (26V 20.8Ah) The battery is made up of high quality Samsung lithium-ion 18650 cells.

 

[rich c]

Have you got shares in Yamaha, you seem a tad defensive. ?
Big companies are very often greedy when they have the market cornered - it's these aftermarket companies that help drive the cost down - helping us the buyers.

I had someone else ask me that once, who was from the UK. I'm not sure what "do you have shares" means? I have an opinion about cheap import batteries. I have no business interest in any companies.

 

[larry-new]

I bought a spare when I bought my bike, with a one year warranty. I'd never use an off brand on a new bike...it would void the bike warranty, for starters. Good quality only hurts once.

However, at $1k per battery...ouch! May I assume it's proportional to the overall cost of the bike.

 

[ROB12013]

I bought a spare when I bought my bike, with a one year warranty. I'd never use an off brand on a new bike...it would void the bike warranty, for starters. Good quality only hurts once.

However, at $1k per battery...ouch! May I assume it's proportional to the overall cost of the bike.

Yes I paid £1,700 ($2,250 approx) for the bike so yea the battery costing half that makes it a very expensive item.
I'm sure the Yamaha batteries are good quality but I still feel they are way over priced. Sometimes you pay a substantial amount purely for the name which people fall for all the time.
I will gladly pay extra for proven not perceived quality but I won't be a victim to brand snobbery either.

 

[larry-new]

Good luck, and be sure to keep everyone updated!

 

[ROB12013]

Will do, thanks.

 

[ROB12013]

EEK! Found a spec sheet. They use Samsung 20Q, a 2000mAh cell. Meh! Other packs are using typical cobalt cells, best suited for laptop use.

So it is a Samsung battery. Not sure what "meh" means.

 

[tomjasz]

So it is a Samsung battery. Not sure what "meh" means.

Good luck. Simply being labeled, or claimed to be Samsung doesn't mean the CORRECT battery was used. Many or their batteries, reading their spec sheets, are intended for laptops. And are the appropriate chemistry for that use. Will the work for an ebike? Yes. Will they last? Let us know...

"meh. A sound used to express indifference or apathy. Instead of responding with a "yes" or a "no", "meh" portrays indifference." 20Q is not an eBike appropriate battery.

 

[ROB12013]

Good luck. Simply being labeled, or claimed to be Samsung doesn't mean the CORRECT battery was used. Many or their batteries, reading their spec sheets, are intended for laptops. And are the appropriate chemistry for that use. Will the work for an ebike? Yes. Will they last? Let us know...
"meh. A sound used to express indifference or apathy. Instead of responding with a "yes" or a "no", "meh" portrays indifference." 20Q is not an eBike appropriate battery.

Yes but they're not just labeled or claimed - they ARE Samsung which is what I actually stated.
To your other points.....meh?

 

[rich c]

Let's not escalate this into another "Tariff's" style post. When you post on a forum, you should expect differing opinions. That's what open discussion is all about.

 

[tomjasz]

Yes but they're not just labeled or claimed - they ARE Samsung which is what I actually stated.
To your other points.....meh?

Honestly. I get that they are Samsung. What I'm trying to point out, to you, but perhaps more so to others, ALL SAMSUNG BATTERIES ARE NOT EQUAL. There are different chemistries as well as different intended uses, by their chemistry and design. A laptop battery will work, but will not handle the higher Amp draw and demand by an eBike controller and motor. It's important that we understand that and don't get fleeced. I buy my personal batteries using some Samsung, just never cells intended for other uses. The price may be attractive due to the lower cost of OLD design cells, again intended for laptops. This isn't an opinion it's based on published facts. If I was terse and inconsiderate I apologize. meh isn't an insult, just my indifference to resellers poor choice in cells.

 

[ROB12013]

Let's not escalate this into another "Tariff's" style post. When you post on a forum, you should expect differing opinions. That's what open discussion is all about.

Agreed and I have accepted and am grateful for other 'opinions' but surely when someone says something isn't what I know it actually is I can correct them.
My whole point in this issue is to help and inform others. As I said time will tell as far as the quality is concerned and I'd like to post (factual) updates to those who are interested. In other words if the battery ends off being of inferior quality and/or lets me down in any way I will gladly let everyone know.✌