Spare battery costs
- Thread starter ROB12013
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Dmitri
Active Member
It needs to be said that the situation with Bosch vs Yamaha (omitting the other brands for the moment) is drastically different. Yamaha's battery protocol has been reversed, which is why we can have an aftermarket Yamaha battery in the first place. Yamaha motors also offer interesting choices, both in terms of being able to wire a second battery into the motor in parallel (this is like Bosch's DualBattery) as well as being able to buy a dongle that lets you connect any 36V battery to a Yamaha motor.
In practice though, I'm not sure how well this works. Bicycle rear triangles aren't exactly triangles nowadays, so buying a bespoke triangle battery off Aliexpress might not be on the cards. Even if you do get one, it will be a 36×24=864Wh which is nice, but really nothing to write home about: it's a nice-to-have (given Yamaha won't give you DualBattery) but it's not an epic win. Also, you need the case for this battery (since they typically come without a case) and waterproofing that thing will be quite a challenge.
If you want a lot of lithium, you'd have to place it on the rear rack, but then how is this different to just sticking two extra 500Wh cells into your panniers? Don't know about you, but my panniers are waterproof and strong enough to take an extra 2kg each side. That lets me have, say, 2000Wh total, though with original cells, it costs quite a lot.
All that said, I do plan to buy an additional battery to be a 'service battery' for extra things on my bike: powerful lights (want to try some of those super-strong ones like Lupine Alpha), portable speaker (takes 12V, annoyingly), various gadgets (phone, action camera) and other possible nice-to-haves. But that has nothing to do with powering the bike.
In practice though, I'm not sure how well this works. Bicycle rear triangles aren't exactly triangles nowadays, so buying a bespoke triangle battery off Aliexpress might not be on the cards. Even if you do get one, it will be a 36×24=864Wh which is nice, but really nothing to write home about: it's a nice-to-have (given Yamaha won't give you DualBattery) but it's not an epic win. Also, you need the case for this battery (since they typically come without a case) and waterproofing that thing will be quite a challenge.
If you want a lot of lithium, you'd have to place it on the rear rack, but then how is this different to just sticking two extra 500Wh cells into your panniers? Don't know about you, but my panniers are waterproof and strong enough to take an extra 2kg each side. That lets me have, say, 2000Wh total, though with original cells, it costs quite a lot.
All that said, I do plan to buy an additional battery to be a 'service battery' for extra things on my bike: powerful lights (want to try some of those super-strong ones like Lupine Alpha), portable speaker (takes 12V, annoyingly), various gadgets (phone, action camera) and other possible nice-to-haves. But that has nothing to do with powering the bike.
harryS
Well-Known Member
Rob12013, I looked up your 36V13AH battery at http://www.allbatteries.co.uk and didn't see where it's using Samsung20Q cells. If it's trully close to a 13AH battery, the 20Q's don't have enough AH. I would guess it's a 50 cell battery using 2.6AH cells.
Anyway, you will be the judge of whether allbatteries is honest on the spec when you compare range on these batteries. Don't run the Yamaha or the clones down past 50% and both should last a while.
There's no mystery to a battery unless the manufacturer has taken pains to prevent the use of clones. They all have battery management for battery safety, and the electronics for this are well understood and inexpensive. Yamaha has a lot of overhead, good warranty, and we should expect to have a high margin. Third party guys can often put put comparable product at lower price. No advertising. No dealers. No high [paid CEO and corporate office to suck up profits.
Anyway, you will be the judge of whether allbatteries is honest on the spec when you compare range on these batteries. Don't run the Yamaha or the clones down past 50% and both should last a while.
There's no mystery to a battery unless the manufacturer has taken pains to prevent the use of clones. They all have battery management for battery safety, and the electronics for this are well understood and inexpensive. Yamaha has a lot of overhead, good warranty, and we should expect to have a high margin. Third party guys can often put put comparable product at lower price. No advertising. No dealers. No high [paid CEO and corporate office to suck up profits.
ROB12013
Member
No you originally said "that is not a samsung battery" which is not a fact, then you said "just because it's labeled Samsung". Now you're saying it IS Samsung after all but not a good enough one. Really I do objectively get the message although I'm not sure it is using 20Q and the spec info says :-
"This Yamaha 36V 13Ah type battery (26V 20.8Ah) for electric bikes would be the perfect replacement for the original battery. This battery is made up of high quality Samsung lithium-ion 18650 cells."
See harryS post above.
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Dmitri
Active Member
I find it interesting that there is a specific list of bikes the battery is compatible with. What's the purpose of this? Are they saying that the battery won't be compatible with some other Yamaha-equipped bike? Because there's no way that can be the case. In fact, Haibike has nothing to do with the battery as such.
ROB12013
Member
Yes that does seem odd - especially as my bike isn't one of the models listed yet it fits.
What I’d like to see people take from this thread is that you can save money by buying a non-OEM battery, but you need to be careful who you buy from. Some sellers are ethical, and some aren’t. Some battery builders know what they’re doing, and some don’t. Each of us has to decide for ourselves how much of a gamble we’re comfortable taking, and how much we need to know about the game before we place our bets.
ROB12013
Member
Well said ?
PaD
Well-Known Member
In addition to that I would advice prospective e-bike buyers to reflect over the possible need of a spare battery.
I didn’t. For my Specialized Vado I doubt there is a non-oem alternative.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me of the famous quote by John Ruskin:
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
Agreed, It does happen but so in frequently that you can't count on it.
ROB12013
Member
You bet and I'm not but my fingers are crossed. Strangely enough I'm definitely not usually a gambler by nature yet here we are.
I'll def post updates - good news or bad.
tomjasz
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I at first thought they weren't since the initial list referred to them as NX or something similar. No Samsung battery has that suffix or prefix. However, some of the packs did have complete details and upon reading them I found they are USING SAMSUNG LAPTOP BATTERIES in the packs. NOT a good sustainable method of building eBike packs. Suddenly I realized how they get the lower prices. Some of the batteries used are 10-year-old designs. There are MUCH better cells for our use.
They seem to be one of the few building packs using OEM cases. My single biggest reason for DIY projects, silly pricing of proprietary batteries, or battery controller systems that lock a rider into a ridiculously expensive replacement with proprietary com systems.
tomjasz
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I didn't save the PDF files I found and can't access them today. Seems they have been taken down. The single one left lists a 22PM (M= Malasia) cell. The previous listing for the posters pack did list the 20Q as the cell used. PDF now taken down.
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Unfortunately you are not right. Since just because it has Bosch or Yamaha branding they are selling you a $4 joystick for $60 it is not surprising that aftermarket can reduce the cost that much. I would say for $500 you should be getting original Yamaha or Bosch battery.
The cells they use are 18650 LG, Samsung etc. cells which are already used by many other devices, Yamaha or Bosch are not battery manufacturers they use what is available just like any other company. Even the highest quality ones around 3500mah capacity can be had for under $4 a piece when you order 1000 cells or more. Every powerpack has 40 cells so even for 25 packs you will be ordering 1000 cells etc. so they are probably buying it for really cheap.
So do the math, 40 cells < $160, bms+ case + connectors, welding manufacturing costs ~ $50-100 (and I am being generous here). so They are manufacturing these packs around $250 (probably for less). They sell this for $1000 !!! They should be pricing these batteries around $500-550.
You can easily get a quality pack for $500 (cost wise) the problem is can you trust the aftermarket manufacturers? It is really hard to trust someone when it comes to batteries.
Hopefully more people will begin riding ebikes so the prices will become reasonable...
tomjasz
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Bosch has incredible quality control. Some of the cells from these packs are often for sale from the EU. THOUSANDS of individual cells every year. This is a real cost of business. AND the reason we don't hear about a lot of pack failures.
$500 for a landed battery? NO ONE CAN MAKE A FAIR MARGIN AT THAT PRICE!
$500 for a landed battery? NO ONE CAN MAKE A FAIR MARGIN AT THAT PRICE!
Do you have any numbers to backup your claim ?
And what kind of "incredible" quality control you can have on batteries that you purchase from Samsung and spot welding them ?
If you have information I will be happy to listen.
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