Sorry - question about support level

[Gbike]

I am not a math or physics major. I don’t understand what “support” actually means (beyond knowing that it assists me getting up hills and so forth and that having more of it makes it easier). I currently am using on echo 15% support and 50% max power. This provides me a ride that makes me work. But also helps me. I have no idea what it means, however. And does “max power“ work independently of “support”?

I am riding a creo evo.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That's very easy to explain. The Support parameter means how much your leg input power is amplified by the motor. The maximum mechanical amplification is 1.8x (that's what is delivered to the drivetrain). 15% support means 0.15 * 1.8 = 0.27x amplification. Say your leg power is 150 W, then the motor will deliver 0.27 * 150 = 40.5 W to the chainring, and you will add your own 150 W.

Max Motor Power is a cap on the mechanical power the motor is allowed to assist you. 100% Max Motor Power is 240 W for the SL 1.1 motor. 50% of Max Motor Power is the motor is allowed to deliver up to 120 W of mechanical assist.

These two parameters are independent.

For instance:

• Support 100%
• Max Motor Power 50%
• Your leg input power 150 W.

The leg power should be amplified to 150 * 1.8 = 270 W. However, you capped the Max Motor Power at 120 W, so no more than 120 W mechanical would be provided by the motor to the drivetrain.

Or,

• Support 15%
• Max Motor Power 100%
• Your leg power input 150 W.

As shown above, the motor will assist you with 40.5 W but theoretically might deliver up to full 240 W of assistance.

Or,

• Support 15%
• Max Motor Power 15%
• Your leg power input 150 W.

The Support expects to assist you with 40.5 W. The cap on the motor power is 0.15 * 240 W = 36 W. If you set the system as above, the motor will only provide up to 36 W.

 

[Jorge M]

Thanks for that explanation Stefan, I’ve had trouble understanding the difference between support & max power as well. It makes more sense now.

 

[Gbike]

Thanks! This helps. I guess in the end, it’s all about what you want to get out of a ride - pleasure vs effort

 

[kahn]

Thanks! This helps. I guess in the end, it’s all about what you want to get out of a ride - pleasure vs effort

I hope to get a bit of each!

 

[John in CA]

I've been confused by this too since getting my Vado SL 5.0 five months ago. I recently did a test that helped me see how the support/peak ratio works. I made a preset as follows:

Eco -- 20/20
Sport -- 20/100
Turbo -- 100/100

I headed for a nice hill and switched between Eco and Sport. The Eco setting was definitely work whereas the Sport setting added more assistance as I peddled. I did not use Turbo for this "experiment."

What I am not clear about is how the bike knows when to add more assistance when I use the 20/100 ratio. Does the motor sense only the cadence (how fast I'm peddling) or does it somehow know how hard I'm pushing on the peddles? Thanks for any clarification.

 

[mschwett]

I've been confused by this too since getting my Vado SL 5.0 five months ago. I recently did a test that helped me see how the support/peak ratio works. I made a preset as follows:

Eco -- 20/20
Sport -- 20/100
Turbo -- 100/100

I headed for a nice hill and switched between Eco and Sport. The Eco setting was definitely work whereas the Sport setting added more assistance as I peddled. I did not use Turbo for this "experiment."

What I am not clear about is how the bike knows when to add more assistance when I use the 20/100 ratio. Does the motor sense only the cadence (how fast I'm peddling) or does it somehow know how hard I'm pushing on the peddles? Thanks for any clarification.

the motor knows how hard you’re pushing (torque sensor) and how fast the pedals are going around (cadence sensor.)

the combination of speed(cadence) and force(torque) gives power, measured in watts on a bike, horsepower on a car, etc. if you’re generating 200 watts on your 20/100 setting, the bike will respond with another 72 watts. (.20 x 1.8 x 200).

if you’re generating 200 watts on your 20/20 setting, the 72 watts implied by the 20% support would be limited by the “max” support of 20, which is 20 percent of 240, or 48 watts.

in all modes and settings, as you pedal harder the bike assists you more, until it hits the max.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I guess in the end, it’s all about what you want to get out of a ride - pleasure vs effort

I ride a Vado SL as my everyday e-bike, leaving the full power Vado for demanding weekend rides. Today, there was a weather window between two European storms, so I took an opportunity for a 25.8 mi ride to my favourite café. I had to counter a 13 mph headwind on the outward leg of the trip. As my legs are bad, I need to use pretty much of assistance. Here are the metrics for my ride at (basically) 60/60% SL assistance:

Note: My own contribution to the ride was 50%, which I perceive as a very good workout. My weighted average power was 100 W, which was a very good result given my ailments!

 

[Gbike]

the motor knows how hard you’re pushing (torque sensor) and how fast the pedals are going around (cadence sensor.)

the combination of speed(cadence) and force(torque) gives power, measured in watts on a bike, horsepower on a car, etc. if you’re generating 200 watts on your 20/100 setting, the bike will respond with another 72 watts. (.20 x 1.8 x 200).

if you’re generating 200 watts on your 20/20 setting, the 72 watts implied by the 20% support would be limited by the “max” support of 20, which is 20 percent or 240, or 48 watts.

in all modes and settings, as you pedal harder the bike assists you more, until it hits the max.

Ok - to get totally into the weeds, does it make sense then that one strategy would be to keep a consistent “high” cadence, keep support low, but have max power high so that it is giving you power most when you need it?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Ok - to get totally into the weeds, does it make sense then that one strategy would be to keep a consistent “high” cadence, keep support low, but have max power high so that it is giving you power most when you need it?

That's right (for a fit rider). High cadence allows the motor to work at the high efficiency, which is also important.

 

[BEC111]

Ok - to get totally into the weeds, does it make sense then that one strategy would be to keep a consistent “high” cadence, keep support low, but have max power high so that it is giving you power most when you need it?

The usual “it depends” answer applies here, but the usual answer is yes.

My Vado Sl motor is most efficient at 75-85 RPM. I try maintaining that cadence and change gears while I ride. If I set the assist for a range, say 55-85 for Sport, my gears and cadence controls speed as it would on any bike. Pedal very fast and I can ride at the maximum speed the gearing supports. This means I may not have to change assist levels for a shallow hill or to pass someone. I just pedal faster and get more boost.

 

[mschwett]

Ok - to get totally into the weeds, does it make sense then that one strategy would be to keep a consistent “high” cadence, keep support low, but have max power high so that it is giving you power most when you need it?

cadence has a bit to do with what kind of rider you are - but generally, yes, higher cadence is better. 90rpm is a good target for most non-elite road cyclists. the specialized SL motors are tuned to produce peak power between 70 and 100 rpm, although peak torque occurs a bit earlier, around 60rpm. some riders like to "grind" or push harder and slower in a lower gear, some like to "spin" or push less hard but very fast in a higher gear. the specialized motors allow either behavior

your strategy of keeping support low but max power high can be a good one, although it results in inconsistent and unpredictable battery usage. the harder you pedal, the more battery you use. if you're pedaling hard to go fast (rather than uphill) you'll eat battery very fast without actually going much faster since wind drag is the CUBE of speed - it's 8 times as much at 20mph as it is at 10mph. weight matters almost none once you're already moving.

personally, my preference is actually for the bike to provide a relatively constant and low amount of power. my typical output is 180-240w, and for long climbs or very bad headwinds i like a boost of 60w or so, so i set my eco mode to 15/25.

.15 x 1.8 (max SL assist) x 180w (low end of my cruise power) = 48w
.15 x 1.8 (max SL assist) x 240w (high end of my cruise power) = 65w, but capped at 60w
.15 x 1.8 (max SL assist) x 500w (i get out of the saddle and push hard for fun) = 135, but capped at 60w. i actually DON'T want the bike to use 135w in this scenario, unless i've pushed the button to switch to turbo

i know that with these settings, the battery usage will be around 60w on average, assuming i'm pedaling. i typically average around 16mph unassisted with hills or 18mph on flats, that extra 60w would probably yield an average speed of around 20mph, the 320wh battery would last around 4.5 hours (not 100% efficient and you can't use every last watt!) for a range of close to 100 miles.

i leave my turbo at 100/100, virtually guaranteeing the full 240w of power any time i'm pedaling. i actually use this on a nearly daily basis when i ride home from work late at night up a 20% hill. low gearing and 240w make quick work of it.

 

[John in CA]

the motor knows how hard you’re pushing (torque sensor) and how fast the pedals are going around (cadence sensor.)

in all modes and settings, as you pedal harder the bike assists you more, until it hits the max.

Thank you for this explanation!

In an effort to prolong battery life, I am generally using the following, while trying to keep my cadence around 80-85:
ECO -- 20/20 (just a little help if I need it)
Sport -- 40/40 (for more of a grade when 20/20 isn't enough or I'm tired)
Turbo -- 80/80 (for steeper hills or I want to go faster)

These setting have given me quite a bit more battery life than the default settings--35/65/100. I'm finding I just don't need 100%, which is good for battery life and perhaps easier on the motor (?).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

which is good for battery life and perhaps easier on the motor (?).

Sure, it is!

 

[BioWheel]

Might sound like a strange reason but I've kept my Turbo Mode ratio at full tilt. I refer to it as 'Dog' mode and use it accordingly. The ability to go full-tilt in seconds provides me opportunities to ride my SL in places I would never ride with a bike.

 

[Gbike]

I am totally happy with turbo mode after I have been to the pub after a ride and still need to climb a nasty hill home.

today I rode a hilly ride at 15% Support. Interesting how much less help that felt than at 20% - and thus, how much less pleasure I had riding it! . I guess it is a N1 experiment to find the sweet spot

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have achieved a Strava E-Bike KOM on my Vado 5.0 in Turbo Mode today 7 km is not a short segment!

 

[Jorge M]

Great job Stefan! Now if you have recuperated from that effort I have another stupid question re: support & watts. On the Mission Control app under “my rides” it shows among other things “total consumption“ in watts, or what I assume is watts. It will read something like: “110.00wh”. Does that reference the average watts put out by the rider during that particular ride or something else? Thanks in advance.

 

[mschwett]

Great job Stefan! Now if you have recuperated from that effort I have another stupid question re: support & watts. On the Mission Control app under “my rides” it shows among other things “total consumption“ in watts, or what I assume is watts. It will read something like: “110.00wh”. Does that reference the average watts put out by the rider during that particular ride or something else? Thanks in advance.

total consumption is how much battery you used.

the battery contains a total of 320wH, or "watt hours," meaning it could output 320 watts for one hour. the motor never draws more than 300 watts, so a more realistic example would be that the battery could supply the motor 80 watts continuously for 4 hours. in practice, the battery can't be depleted all the way to 0, so it's a bit less than that.

110.00wh means you used a bit more than a third of the battery on that ride. it could have been a motor draw of 110 watts for an hour, 55 watts for two hours, 220 watts for thirty minutes and then motor off the rest of the way, etc etc.

 

[mschwett]

I have achieved a Strava E-Bike KOM on my Vado 5.0 in Turbo Mode today 7 km is not a short segment!

View attachment 114750

nice average speed for a sustained distance! has anyone else ever done that segment - it says 1 attempt by 1 person?! a flat road like that here would have a zillion attempts!