Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[pxpaulx]

Kawasaki sumo is VERY heavy at around 47 lbs. I believe 15+ is in the wheels. I don't care too much - I want it built like a motorcycle.

Yeah if you put a big enough mid drive and a 48v or maybe 72v battery 20lbs won't make a difference anyway.

 

[Credible Hulk]

Why does a $500 eBike receive so much scrutiny ...

After getting sick of the delays and excuses for the Sondors, I went out in late May and paid $2700 (everything in) for an electric scooter from a reputable manufacturer and local dealer. I get full warranty support, free tune-ups and repairs. I have plenty of documentation and manuals at my disposal and I can always call the dealer if I have any questions. It's here right now and I can take it out any time I like.

Sondors - was supposed to be $499 when I ordered it. Total expenses I've had to pay so far add up to over $1000. I confirmed with UPS that they will charge me another $300 at the door if the ebike ever arrives. I was supposed to get a refund (over $300 CAD) for the second battery several days ago, but haven't seen a dime. I suspect SondorCo plans to hit up international buyers for additional shipping fees (at least $50). If I ever receive the actual ebike, I'll have to spend more money to make it road legal here. I'll also have to pay around $200 for a bike shop to assemble it. Chances are if it doesn't arrive until October, I won't be able to ride it until May 2016. Did I mention I was supposed to be a "first wave" customer who paid in early February? Of course there's no chance of any support or warranty repairs. When all is said and done, I will end up spending more for a cheaply made Chinese ebike with no warranty than I did on my high-end DOT spec scooter.

Conned? It's not about how much money is spent, but what it's spent on.

Compare the two vehicles I've described above and decide which of them is the bargain, and which one's the con.

"Penny wise, pound foolish".

 

[Tara D.]

@pxpaulx @freddy If you guys decide to continue to talk about converting the Kawasaki Sumo please consider starting a thread in the Other forum Thanks!

 

[Credible Hulk]

Oh no! Will I have to keep my crazy hat on until October 2015 for wave 1 backers to receive their orange and yellow ebikes as is claimed on the gosondors FB page - not leading anyone, read the comments!

(Post copied from the Sondors Review thread)

Only if you're in the US. Outside the US, you get repeated empty promises in emails designed to look like tracking updates.

Jul 20 update to all backers: "International shipping is happening as we write and we'll be emailing international backers in the next few days for estimated delivery timing."

Today (email from "Sondors Canada Shipping"): "A quick note to say bikes (all colors) are on their way to Canada [or your country] from China! More info on when they'll arrive coming soon."

Can you see any difference in meaning (or the lack thereof) in those two messages? Apparently "estimated delivery timing" is just "soon".

And the stalling tactics continue... until they think customers will be so fed up with waiting that they'll accept another surcharge on the shipping fee. Look what happened with the batteries. They know that the more Sondors ebikes US residents receive, the more impatient international customers will become. Winter is coming as well. So nobody outside of the US will get their orders unless they pay extra. And Sondors won't offer them refunds this time.

 

[wa5]

and yet, you continue to read and contribute to it, curious indeed.

 

[Credible Hulk]

and yet, you continue to read and contribute to it, curious indeed.

Especially since you didn't put any of your own money towards one of these bikes. So you have no right to insult others who did.

You have every right to express your opinion. You don't have a right to use abusive language towards others ("rabid butthurt" and repeatedly calling people "crazy" etc.). If you don't like this thread or what others have to say in it, either participate in the conversation in a respectful manner or don't post in this thread.

This is not your first attempt to silence the discussion in this thread. I'm not sure what you have to gain personally by doing this.

Either way, it's up to the mods to decide if this thread has gone off topic or should be closed - not you.

 

[Ann M.]

Alright, alright! Take the boxing gloves off everyone! Please remember that this thread is about Sondors fact finding, due diligence and scrutiny about Sondors bikes, not each other. Stay on topic.

 

[EULITTLB]

OK I am in positive discussion with Curt Welch who is an active member on the SS Owners Group who has taken the time to discuss things reasonably and on the level so my thanks to him. My concerns relate to the donations for 6000/7000/10000 bikes (who knows?) that were claimed to be ordered. I simply cannot understand how anyone can reconcile the claim that bikes have been shipped in volume order in the approximate quantities that they should have been if the above figures are anywhere near true. Curt put together these figures from the Owner Group Poll, also there are 0 bikes delivered to the EU that I know of. I get the feeling that more will be known after the 29th July.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153185853229317&set=p.10153185853229317&type=1&theater

I have gotten over the fact that for those who have received their bikes, they have gotten what they have paid for (not as advertised) but in terms of value-for-money (three weeks in) not bad. But something is wildly wrong with the claim that 6000 bikes+ have been donated for or even that 1000 bikes have been delivered to date IMHO.

 

[wa5]

I wonder how long he will last at the owners group now he's sleeping with the enemy?

 

[JoePah]

One thing I'd like to get straight from the beginning (and I'm not writing on anyone else's behalf): My issue is NOT with the bike itself. Yes it's a very nice looking bike and I was first attracted by its looks. When I first paid for it, I was as eager as anyone else to receive it. Even now, despite a few glitches, I'd be excited to get an email with my tracking number.

What really went wrong? Let's start with my $1500, where are the items I paid for? You say I won't give Ivars credit for anything. Well, I'm giving him credit alright - the kind of credit he has earned.

For me it all started when Ivars decided to treat his customers like something dug out of a latrine. We've been lied to, strung along, numerous promises and "guarantees" broken. But the worst of all, at least for me, has been being kept in the dark. No replies to emails. No explanation about why they've been delaying shipments to customers - which originally were supposed to ARRIVE in May.

You don't take over $1000 from someone as advance payment for a purchase, then treat them in this way. You don't ship product to some select people while leaving thousands of other paying customers in the dark as to why they aren't getting their item too. Right now the international backers who paid a premium shipping fee, are being crapped on just like in the proverbial latrine. We have the right to know what is happening to our order, our money and our product that we paid for.

I don't like dishonest crooks. I don't like having my money stolen and used on something else without my consent. I don't like having the item I paid for held without ETA or explanation. I don't like being harassed online by paid shills. I don't like being treated like a fool or a bank machine.

And as long as Ivars continues to serve up negativity by treating his customers like filth - I will continue to return that negativity, since it's what he deserves. He created this mess, not me. I'll change my attitude as soon as he changes his.

Maturity is a wonderful thing.. makes you appreciate what is important and what is realistic, and handle small problems without a hissy fit.

Anyone with an internet connection, meaning anyone who ordered a Sondors eBike, should have known that crowfunded eBikes rarely if ever deliver on time.. Sondors is the remarkable exception in that a substantial number were shipped in May as advertised. He also provided updates on the shipping schedule.

You and others may end up waiting months before you get a great deal on a terrific eBike.. And you're a lot better off than the poor unfortunates that paid for the FlyKly in 2013, and ARE STILL WAITING!

If you're the type of person who expects what you want when you want it, do some work before you pay and get a grip on the reality of crowfunding.

 

[wa5]

I'm sure EULITTLB can furnish a screen shot of "delivery in MAY 2015" not "shipping" if you need to see it again JoePah. so Storm didn't deliver on time, and nowhere near all the bikes have been delivered 90 days later.

You bring up other campaigns that have turned out to be worse performing than Sondors, as if that excuses the lies and fraud, it doesn't.

You say people should somehow " just know" that Crowdfunded campaigns don't deliver what they promised, when they promised.. How might they become aware of that? every time I tried to bring it up on the IGG page, I was called a shill and posted over til my reply disappeared under the weight of Philip Hillis and his cronies propaganda.

People used to shop fronts and secure on line purchases from places like Amazon or Ebay would have no idea that IndieGoGo would be any different. Thanks to people like Ralph Nader, American Consumers don't need to worry about such things any more... or at least, they didn't.

 

[EULITTLB]

Thanks Trev good point. Curt Welch is a reasonable guy, he knows it is not a done deal but hopes for the best as everyone does, good guy to correspond reasonably with. He may be right I may be wrong and vice versa

 

[PowerMe]

It's totally mysterious how one might possibly find out that crowdfunding is whole different animal than shopping on Amazon.com and that one is not actually purchasing a product outright, like they do in a retail store or with an established online business that is reselling products and that spending their monies on a campaign may not get the person anything in return.


... or is it?

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[George S.]

Europe, Eurobikes, already look like the big losers in this. Accell seemed to think this would be a breakthrough year for their ebikes, but Germany is carrying the load. The US does not look that great at the high end.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/nort...net-profit-21-percent-first-half#.VbUKbflVhBc

If they change the rules in California. If CF continues to work for people. If the Aliexpress stuff starts to work out. Too much to sort out, but a lot of this works against the high end stuff. People will have a range of choices, the way things look now. Better choices with batteries. Better choices with kit motors. Better choices for built kits from various forms of retailer.

Second Point: People should read the post from @PowerMe. I remember the pre-campaign for the Storm. Ten days of hype with a bike that was 'coming soon'. Come on back on Sunday and get a bike. But the place to get the bike was a CF site, and that was the first mention of that fact. I guess it was brilliant, on the part of A2.0, but if CF is so great, why not be completely upfront? Take a chance, help us get a bike for a great price to people. That wasn't the campaign. Suddenly, you were in Perk World.

 

[PowerMe]

That's like saying Mercedes, BMW, and many other premium (i.e. $$$$$) automobiles have the Ford Fiesta, Nissan Sentra, and Toyota Yaris working against them and premium autos are losing sales to people who decided to purchase a $15K auto instead. That's just not how it works.

In the ebike world the same assumption is being made: that someone who opts to spend $500 - $800 on a Sonders CF Chinese ebike, was willing and able to spend >$2500 for a brand name ebike that already exists, but decided instead to go the CF route and wait it out, which CF campaigns do involve, to get a 'perk' of some unknown final specification and iffy quality, along with the risk of getting nothing at all or at least nothing for a very long time.

Nope, that does not compute. I maintain that a significant % of CF Sonders ebike contributors were people who would not spend over $1,500 for an ebike. As such, any manufacturer who is using quality known parts, offers a set of nice features, has a history, quality, and network for sales & support, is going to price their ebikes over the threshold that a Walmart-type bike buyer or a Sonders type funder, would pull the trigger.

Is Walmart shaking in their boots? I highly doubt it!

 

[scmike]

What would Ralph Nader or any other consumer advocate think... CF is just a "sneaky (for lack of a better adj.) way to weaken if not dissolve completely consumer rights... So they are now contributors, funders, benefactors... The pool of these is not endless... Meaning people will eventually be enlightened ...

 

[PowerMe]

No one is forced to get an ebike. No one is forced to fund a campaign. It's a choice. It's always been a choice. It doesn't dissolve consumer rights. It's a specific type of funding platform used by a small % of the population. It's not hurting the GNP, it changes nothing with government protection laws. Sonders may look like a big huge threatening deal, but in comparison to the overall sales of bikes, not so much.

 

[George S.]

That's like saying Mercedes, BMW, and many other premium (i.e. $$$$$) automobiles have the Ford Fiesta, Nissan Sentra, and Toyota Yaris working against them and premium autos are losing sales to people who decided to purchase a $15K auto instead. That's just not how it works.

In the ebike world the same assumption is being made: that someone who opts to spend $500 - $800 on a CF Chinese ebike, was willing and able to spend >$2500 for a brand name ebike that already exists, but decided instead to go the CF route and wait it out, which CF campaigns do involve, to get a 'perk' of some unknown final specification and perhaps iffy quality, along with the risk of getting nothing at all or at least not for a very long time.

Nope, that does not compute. I maintain that a significant % of CF ebike contributors, like what we see with Sonders, were people who would never spend over $1,500 for an ebike. As such, any manufacturer who is using quality known parts, offers a set of nice features, has a history, quality, and network for sales & support, is going to price their ebikes over the threshold that a Walmart-type bike buyer would pull the trigger.

Is Walmart shaking in their boots? I highly doubt it!

The CF campaigns cover a lot of price points, like the Koben which sells directly against the Accell and BH stuff. The kits with MAC and BBS02 motors are simply equal or better than the Accell and BH offerings, for less money. Both end up being performance bikes. Bosch sells a battery for $900, a similar battery is a third that on Aliexpress.

It's an interesting question, if a Haibike or even a Stromer is a Mercedes. They like to think they are, and you buy into it, but it's not to me. Mercedes represents a long tradition of auto manufacturing. The long tradition of manufacturing ebikes is in China. Can China make a premium product? Again, look at the MAC and the BBS02, the Max, whatever. Bike stuff is made in Asia.

I really wonder why Accell seems to have problems in the US. If you are right, and it's not the three things I mentioned, maybe they have done something wrong.

 

[EULITTLB]

George if I have understood correctly you say Europe is a big loser in this? Why?

The Sondors cheap ebike will be hit with a 15% duty, 20% vat and 48% anti-dumping tax on import.

Not of the cf price but on the $1299 srp. At least on paper.

I think I am correct in stating Ivars will not be taking Europe by storm
Very soon - he has about 4-5000 bikes still to deliver in the U.S. But am beginning to doubt that 6000 bikes to us and 1000-1500 internationally was remotely true.

The cynic in me says agency 2.0 lawsuit is purposeful, it gets Ivars off the hook.

 

[PowerMe]

eBikes are in their infancy. U.S. infrastructure, as discussed many times on these forums, is not supportive towards bikes in general, as serious transportation. There are many factors that affect these markets. Accell or any ebike manufacturer is up against many realities that affect adoption of ebikes in particular and even outside of that, bikes beyond mere recreation or sport. It is what it is. Worrying about Accell seems strange to me.

Besides that, we're on the Sonders Facts forum. CF will not be taking over the world. CF will not overtake Walmart or anyone else. Sonders, despite what anyone believes, hopes, and dreams, will also not be taking over the world. They are a tiny niche inside of a small niche, playing in a boutique sandbox business platform. Why that reality is hard to accept, I don't know. A lot of angst over a tiny little speck of a bike in what is a billion $ business worldwide.