Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[EULITTLB]

@ George S. Stating and doing are two different things - the pertinent point is the claim in Feb-April 2015 was that estimated delivery was May 2015. Delivery at the end of August/September doesn't have such an appeal does it, donators have been misled, pure and simple. Really will be interesting to see how Customs in the EU handle the shipments if ever they reach Western Europe, as before 15% duty, 20% vat and 48% Chinese anti-dumping based on the SRP of $1299.

Good luck Credible Hulk, you would have thought Canada would be much sooner. Impressions seem inconsistent, some stating x and others stating y.

Aaron MaxwellGot mine this past weekend.
Pros: looks great, rides smooth, has decent thrust.
Cons: no way will go 50 miles, battery doesn't even last past 10 miles with 95% peddling, and peddle broke off first climb up a hill. Threads on peddle crank shaft stripped and now can't ride.

 

[Credible Hulk]

Good luck Credible Hulk, you would have thought Canada would be much sooner.

I believe it has to do with UPS shipping fees. Domestic US shipments are a lot cheaper than sending items outside of the US. Even if it's "only" going to Canada, the fee is still significantly higher. I wonder if SondorCo. is behind on their UPS payments, so UPS is refusing to ship international until they pay up?

As far as I'm concerned, this is more evidence that this project has run out of money (for whatever reason) and is now desperately trying to hide that fact. So, they're only shipping to US destinations to con customers (and prospective buyers) into thinking everything's still on schedule. In the meantime international buyers get vague excuses and delays to buy time. Very reminiscent of April/May's endless parade of lunchbox pics, sent to divert attention from the fact that they weren't manufacturing anything else, and were far behind schedule.

 

[Brambor]

"peddle broke off..." - very funny

 

[J.R.]

"peddle broke off..." - very funny

Was he a rouge salesman, if he broke off. A new career path for ebikers; sales!

 

[Craig Crowder]

50 mile range might be possible and I'd like to give it a try but how would a controlled test be done, how do you apply equal amounts of power as the motor, keep it consistent and measure it? What would be an acceptable test to validate that claim?

Sondors eBike no pedaling range test results: http://thebikethatchangedmylife.blogspot.com/2015/07/sondors-ebike-no-pedaling-range-test.html

 

[Hurley]

Start at the top of the Alps (kidding).
Ideally you would buy a computer for the bike that enables assist levels along with a watts used monitor. Something like what the RadRover has.

 

[George S.]

50 mile range might be possible and I'd like to give it a try but how would a controlled test be done, how do you apply equal amounts of power as the motor, keep it consistent and measure it? What would be an acceptable test to validate that claim?

Sondors eBike no pedaling range test results: http://thebikethatchangedmylife.blogspot.com/2015/07/sondors-ebike-no-pedaling-range-test.html

I think people with a year or two riding ebikes know almost enough from your tests to this point. In the end, it's what you can do, working with the battery and bike. For example, if you pedal to go about 8 mph, and then add throttle to get to 12 mph, the 'model' says an average bike might go 50 miles. Whether people would normally go that slow, I'm not sure. I record my rides and generally average 14-16 mph, but I'm just out there for exercise and I go up long, steep hills. Slow is always going to be better with ebikes and range.

 

[Hurley]

Now the threats have gone to "Give me more money for shipping of batteries". Mo money, mo money, mo money...

eneki
13 minutes ago


Sondors, You should honor your commitment to your backers who paid for the battery early on similar to you discount to backers for the ebike who paid early. I want the battery I paid for and do NOT want to have to PAY another $50 bucks. HONOR YOUR COMMITMENT.


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danielkhedrick
1 minute ago
$50USD
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rg2788
4 minutes ago
$50USD
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Anonymous
4 minutes ago
$50USD
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Adam Scott
8 minutes ago
$50USD
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Dune Lankard
9 minutes ago
$50USD
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Anonymous
10 minutes ago
$50USD
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rack79
11 minutes ago
$50USD
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Henry Rosenthal
11 minutes ago
$50USD
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David Hansen
11 minutes ago
$50USD
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marlborough8
13 minutes ago
$50USD
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InDemand

 

[Credible Hulk]

So many sheeple... I feel sorry for them. The comments on IGG are getting interesting, though.

Roger J
28 minutes ago
WTF! More money required to now ship the extra battery? International shipping for a start was a con, every bike was ex China to the country of destination then ground distribution (UPS) from there. So unless you live in China it was always “International” so why is the delivery to the US $194 and everywhere else $247? And now you want an extra $50 – Crap even if there are multiple packages i.e. 2/2 in a delivery, UPS treat it as a single delivery! Just label the battery with the same address.

Roger's points are what got me banned from the FB Owner's Group when I posted them there, months ago.

I knew this was coming back in May. When I was exchanging emails with GoSondors about a refund, I was told they planned on charging extra for the batteries due to "new regulations". I replied stating that their "new" regulations took effect September 2014, and that there's nothing in those regulations to force them to charge their customers extra shipping fees. I sent them this link: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=PHMSA-2009-0095-0302

Guess what? I never heard from them again. Surprise, surprise.

This is just another cash grab/con job. They're treating customers who already paid the agreed-upon amounts, like their personal bank machines. They're using pressure tactics ($50 or no battery for you) and lies (we're forced to charge this fee due to "shipping regulations") to eke more cash out of paid customers. It's looking more and more like Ivars has cleaned them out, or they've mismanaged the funds handed to them by customers, and they're scrambling to scrape together the cash to get at least a few ebikes out to (US - they can't afford international) customers before the authorities come after them. Five million dollars -> gone in a few months, with very little to show for it.

Either way, expect more sleazy fees and cash grabs as they get more desperate. Next will be another "extra fee" added for international buyers, "pay up or no ebike for you". They'll blame customs and any government department they can think of for the charge. What they should really be doing, if they can't afford the UPS for international shipping, is to just give the international customers refunds and focus on the US customers.

One thing that's going for them (saving grace?) is that they're willing to offer battery refunds to those who don't want to pay the extra $50. I guess they're hoping customers will read the online accounts of this ebike's range, which is considerably less than first advertised. People will have to weigh the $50 fee vs. the likelihood this project will be bankrupt before they can get the batteries shipped out. As an "international" buyer who is unlikely to ever see an ebike, much less a battery, I'll be hedging my bets and requesting the refund.

 

[freddy]

It's funny to watch this thread rage on, even though all the US bikes are en route and European bikes are starting their journey. For those concerned about the battery shipping, the user's-group already has sourced a higher AH lower-priced compatible battery, so anyone who asks for a refund can get an upgrade and a few bucks back. Refunds are going to be expedited.

I can only imagine the exploding heads if anyone ever looked at a real con, like Monster Cable for example, which people still happily buy every day.

 

[Credible Hulk]

It's funny to watch this thread rage on, even though all the US bikes are en route and European bikes are starting their journey. For those concerned about the battery shipping, the user's-group already has sourced a higher AH lower-priced compatible battery, so anyone who asks for a refund can get an upgrade and a few bucks back. Refunds are going to be expedited.

I can only imagine the exploding heads if anyone ever looked at a real con, like Monster Cable for example, which people still happily buy every day.

"Real con" - in the eye of the beholder. When someone buys a Monster Cable at least they're not being soaked for thousands of dollars and then strung along for months waiting for their purchase to (never) materialize. They have the option of returning the cable to the retailer for a refund - unlike Sondors customers. For the Sondors project the proof of any fraud will come to light when disgruntled customers start complaining to legislative and criminal authorities. And it shouldn't have had to come to this! Had Sondors displayed some transparency instead of keeping frustrated customers in the dark for months, any fraud accusations could have been nipped in the bud.

Do I believe the Sondors project is a scam? At the least, I think it's been poorly run and customers are getting screwed as a result - intentionally or not. I think the blame for that could be shared between IGG, Sondors and his marketing team du jour. It's too early to say whether the problems come from mismanagement, incompetence or their utter lack of respect for their customers.

You say the "European" bikes are on their way. Funny, I don't recall being sent any ETA for arrival in the last update, and they should have it, if indeed the bikes have left China. Perhaps you can enlighten us instead? And while you're at it, Europe is not the only place still waiting on the ebikes that they paid top dollar for. How about Canada? It's pretty hard to fathom why SondorCo with its 6 million dollar haul, doesn't seem to be able to afford to ship the short distance to Canada from the US.

Re the battery con - there are plenty of angry customers on IGG right now who aren't so happy with this latest in a long line of broken promises. If there is another battery available now, why hasn't this information been sent to backers in an update? Or do they have to go play in the toxic cesspool that is the "owners" group to get one? And what was so wrong with the original battery? Add it to the growing list of things that the Six Million Dollar Project can no longer afford.

I asked for a battery refund, the only answer I got was "confirmed". Nothing about when or if I could expect a refund. Certainly I wasn't offered any optional battery choice. But since I doubt I'll ever see a Sondors ebike on my doorstep in this lifetime, it's a moot point anyway.

 

[J.R.]

"Real con" - in the eye of the beholder. When someone buys a Monster Cable at least they're not being soaked for thousands of dollars and then strung along for months waiting for their purchase to (never) materialize. They have the option of returning the cable to the retailer for a refund - unlike Sondors customers. For the Sondors project the proof of any fraud will come to light when disgruntled customers start complaining to legislative and criminal authorities. And it shouldn't have had to come to this! Had Sondors displayed some transparency instead of keeping frustrated customers in the dark for months, any fraud accusations could have been nipped in the bud.

Do I believe the Sondors project is a scam? At the least, I think it's been poorly run and customers are getting screwed as a result - intentionally or not. I think the blame for that could be shared between IGG, Sondors and his marketing team du jour. It's too early to say whether the problems come from mismanagement, incompetence or their utter lack of respect for their customers.

You say the "European" bikes are on their way. Funny, I don't recall being sent any ETA for arrival in the last update, and they should have it, if indeed the bikes have left China. Perhaps you can enlighten us instead? And while you're at it, Europe is not the only place still waiting on the ebikes that they paid top dollar for. How about Canada? It's pretty hard to fathom why SondorCo with its 6 million dollar haul, doesn't seem to be able to afford to ship the short distance to Canada from the US.

Re the battery con - there are plenty of angry customers on IGG right now who aren't so happy with this latest in a long line of broken promises. If there is another battery available now, why hasn't this information been sent to backers in an update? Or do they have to go play in the toxic cesspool that is the "owners" group to get one? And what was so wrong with the original battery? Add it to the growing list of things that the Six Million Dollar Project can no longer afford.

I asked for a battery refund, the only answer I got was "confirmed". Nothing about when or if I could expect a refund. Certainly I wasn't offered any optional battery choice. But since I doubt I'll ever see a Sondors ebike on my doorstep in this lifetime, it's a moot point anyway.

He was talking about the aftermarket battery noted on one of the threads here (not this one). I'm just curious, will you tell us when/if you get notification or bike?

 

[freddy]

Or do they have to go play in the toxic cesspool that is the "owners" group to get one? And what was so wrong with the original battery?

Toxic cesspool! This is also hilarious, as thousands of members are constantly chatting and supporting each other in the "toxic cesspool". I've even met Sondors owners from my own tiny town in Oregon. Is it a cesspool because they like to dwell on the positives and enjoyment of the bike (that wasn't even going to exist according to most of the EBR posters)?

If this is supposed to be the wonderful place and the owners group is a cesspool, please give me the cesspool every time.

 

[J.R.]

Toxic cesspool! This is also hilarious, as thousands of members are constantly chatting and supporting each other in the "toxic cesspool". I've even met Sondors owners from my own tiny town in Oregon. Is it a cesspool because they like to dwell on the positives and enjoyment of the bike (that wasn't even going to exist according to most of the EBR posters)?

If this is supposed to be the wonderful place and the owners group is a cesspool, please give me the cesspool every time.

Check your facts freddy, most posters on EBR are pro owners and are happy bikes are being received and enjoyed!

 

[freddy]

Check your facts freddy, most posters on EBR are pro owners and are happy bikes are being received and enjoyed!

Not compared to the "cesspool" ;-)

 

[pxpaulx]

Not compared to the "cesspool" ;-)

Do you understand that when someone says a supportive comment to your side of a discussion, you should say thank you? Most of the reason people have described it as a cesspool is because of toxic negativity. You're not helping that cause. And for the record I, too, am 100% FOR contributors receiving their bikes. There are like 5 people at most here that are openly negative about the whole campaign here.

 

[freddy]

Do you understand that when someone says a supportive comment to your side of a discussion, you should say thank you? Most of the reason people have described it as a cesspool is because of toxic negativity. You're not helping that cause. And for the record I, too, am 100% FOR contributors receiving their bikes. There are like 5 people at most here that are openly negative about the whole campaign here.

I didn't think I made a negative comment. I commented on how silly it was that _some_ people are still acting like there is some grand con going on, and explained that AFAIK, all the bikes are now en route (in addition to the thousand we know have landed). Then I laughed at a specific poster calling the private owners group a cesspool, when it is populated by virtually all positive or helpful posts, at least half of them giddy with excitement.

But you are correct: I should not generalize to all of EBR. It's was my understanding from other owners that pro-Sondors posters used to get banned on EBR, where the obviously anti-Sondors posters seem to have historically had free run to start any rumors they see fit about this campaign (the simple history of this thread demonstrates many of these now-disproved rumors). But maybe those were owners with axes to grind...

On an unrelated note, I just started the conversion of a Kawasaki Sumo 4 fat bike (Bafang 48v mid) while I await my son's Sondors (last wave). Damn - fat bikes are big and heavy.

 

[pxpaulx]

@freddy Very cool, thanks for the honest reply! How much did the Kawasaki weigh before you do the conversion? My bikes direct Boris x7 is about 34lbs which I found quite light...but the last non electric bike I had owned was my Raleigh mountain bike in high school, which is long enough ago to not mention when hahaha. I think the mid drive on the fat bike will be a great match.

 

[Adrian]

Why does a $500 eBike receive so much scrutiny ...

Yes, I'm sure some, if not many, have a considerable mark up. But they also come with far more customer support, etc and you can be sure those brands will be around tomorrow to fix issues you've had with your purchase. Keeping a business open, together with R&D and all the other things that Sondors doesn't have, costs money.

 

[freddy]

@freddy Very cool, thanks for the honest reply! How much did the Kawasaki weigh before you do the conversion? My bikes direct Boris x7 is about 34lbs which I found quite light...but the last non electric bike I had owned was my Raleigh mountain bike in high school, which is long enough ago to not mention when hahaha. I think the mid drive on the fat bike will be a great match.

Kawasaki sumo is VERY heavy at around 47 lbs. I believe 15+ is in the wheels. I don't care too much - I want it built like a motorcycle. And I've got 40,000+ miles on Kawasaki motorcycles, so it's fun to have a bike to match (even if it's probably just a badge on someone else's bike).

BTW - the Sumo arrived from Amazon with rubbing disc brakes (that I can't quite tune to perfect) and two spoke nipples yanked right through the wheel. So even a 100-year-old two-wheeled manufacturer has shipping issues.